Cop killer in Cal.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Nothing can justify this guys actions....

I don't care who wronged him and how....taking the life of a Man and Woman who were not associated with his gripe other than being related to a guy he hates cannot be justified no matter how twisted your glasses are.

Yes the LAPD has corruption and has wronged many...but comparing what they have done wrong and what this guy has done as a "running score".....is just not right on any level.

They are two separate issues and should be dealt with separate and accordingly.

LC

Yup. Yoy know People's morals are corrupted when they try and justify murder. First thing parents used to teach their kid's is two wrongs do not make a right.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Yup. Yoy know People's morals are corrupted when they try and justify murder. First thing parents used to teach their kid's is two wrongs do not make a right.

Is it really that simple?? Revolutions usually require spilled blood. Would this guy be justified if more people agreed with his cause? If 90% of the population agreed with his cause and also felt that there was no other way to accomplish it, would it still be immoral? Morality is in the eye of the beholder..

I don't think that I have the capability to take a life for non self defense reasons.. I don't know how I would react when pushed in a corner, but I can't see myself ditching my basic moral code in any circumstance.. I think vengeance is Gods, not ours..

But then again, where would we be today without revolutions??

Regardless though, this guy isn't just killing the "corrupt"..

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Is it really that simple?? Revolutions usually require spilled blood. Would this guy be justified if more people agreed with his cause? If 90% of the population agreed with his cause and also felt that there was no other way to accomplish it, would it still be immoral? Morality is in the eye of the beholder..

I don't think that I have the capability to take a life for non self defense reasons.. I don't know how I would react when pushed in a corner, but I can't see myself ditching my basic moral code in any circumstance.. I think vengeance is Gods, not ours..

But then again, where would we be today without revolutions??

Regardless though, this guy isn't just killing the "corrupt"..

Trying to understand your statements above...

What of a guy had a beef with you and killed your kid and his/her spouse....all in the name of a revolution, you are ok with that if the consensus among his followers was it should be done? So if he felt that was a moral thing to do you would forgive and forget?

LC

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Is it really that simple?? Revolutions usually require spilled blood. Would this guy be justified if more people agreed with his cause? If 90% of the population agreed with his cause and also felt that there was no other way to accomplish it, would it still be immoral? Morality is in the eye of the beholder..

I don't think that I have the capability to take a life for non self defense reasons.. I don't know how I would react when pushed in a corner, but I can't see myself ditching my basic moral code in any circumstance.. I think vengeance is Gods, not ours..

But then again, where would we be today without revolutions??

Regardless though, this guy isn't just killing the "corrupt"..

It is that simple. Otherwise if someone went to your house and murdered your family because they thought tax dollars being spent on a bridge showed a corrupt city council and since you were a sheep that paid taxes without question you would be fine with the murders because a purpose was shown.

There is a reason murder is wrong and if someone does not understand that then they themselves are morally corrupted.

If the LAPD is corrupt then the FBI has a duty to investigate and respond. Since there are always a few bad apples in the bunch... You can not paint everyone with the same brush.

This guy has personality / mental problems as proved because he has murdered. Simple...black and white simple.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I wonder how much more support he would have gotten if he had only targeted those who were involved in the perceived corruption?

"I never had the opportunity to have a family of my own, I’m terminating yours."

NO ONE and I mean NO ONE should support this guys actions. Anyone who is behind him has a seriously busted moral compass.

LC

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Trying to understand your statements above...

What of a guy had a beef with you and killed your kid and his/her spouse....all in the name of a revolution, you are ok with that if the consensus among his followers was it should be done? So if he felt that was a moral thing to do you would forgive and forget?

LC

I guess that's the part I am struggling with... when is a "revolution" good? Who gets to decide it is just? Isn't it just the winner of the fight?

[Mekanik]

[QUOTE=canadiantdi;1843192
Regardless though, this guy isn't just killing the "corrupt"..[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Your talk of revolutionaries and justification isn't really accurate in this context.

This guy might gain more sympathy from me had he stuck to the people who wronged him. We're those two patrolmen he ambushed evil, racist, liars who had done wrong by him or were they simply two regular officers on duty who were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

This is a person who is psychopath, nothing more. The only thing in his head is regaining his lost "honour".

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

It is that simple. Otherwise if someone went to your house and murdered your family because they thought tax dollars being spent on a bridge showed a corrupt city council and since you were a sheep that paid taxes without question you would be fine with the murders because a purpose was shown.

There is a reason murder is wrong and if someone does not understand that then they themselves are morally corrupted.

If the LAPD is corrupt then the FBI has a duty to investigate and respond. Since there are always a few bad apples in the bunch... You can not paint everyone with the same brush.

This guy has personality / mental problems as proved because he has murdered. Simple...black and white simple.

What if the FBI is corrupted? Is there a point when the gen pop will agree with a lunatic and support his cause??

I guess a revolution is never warranted then... unless the revolt is successful..

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Mekanik

Exactly. Your talk of revolutionaries and justification isn't really accurate in this context.

This guy might gain more sympathy from me had he stuck to the people who wronged him. We're those two patrolmen he ambushed evil, racist, liars who had done wrong by him or were they simply two regular officers on duty who were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

This is a person who is psychopath, nothing more. The only thing in his head is regaining his lost "honour".

I agree with you completely.. I am more thinking along the line of a generic fight against corruption.. when is it warranted? There will never be a point when everyone agrees and everyone is ok with killing... but if history means anything, sometimes it happens and people have benefited.

[Lefty-Canuck]

One guy killing people because of a beef is not a revolution ....not even close.

LC

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I guess that's the part I am struggling with... when is a "revolution" good? Who gets to decide it is just? Isn't it just the winner of the fight?

This isn't a revolution, it is a nut bag killing people for his own agenda. I don't know how you can think it is anything else.
PG

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Pincherguy

This isn't a revolution, it is a nut bag killing people for his own agenda. I don't know how you can think it is anything else.
PG

Ya its just one guy... but if he had massive support it would be a legitimate fight against corruption... this guy has some support.. how much is required to be legit? Or can no revolt or fight against corruption or tyranny be good??

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Ya its just one guy... but if he had massive support it would be a legitimate fight against corruption... this guy has some support.. how much is required to be legit? Or can no revolt or fight against corruption or tyranny be good??

If he has support from anyone I would think they would be right beside him gun in hand. Then they would be just as big of a nut bag as this ^%$#&r.
Some may think that there is corruption and there probably is. But I don't think anyone actualy supports him.
PG

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Ya its just one guy... but if he had massive support it would be a legitimate fight against corruption... this guy has some support.. how much is required to be legit? Or can no revolt or fight against corruption or tyranny be good??

Well then for that to be the case he'd have had to consult with other like-minded people and formulate a plan. He didn't, probably because he knew his plan was both cruel, utterly criminal & insane and that any normal person privy to it would try to stop him. Revolutions are fine, but those take the will of the people, not the just the will of an individual a few sandwiches short of a lunch kit. I think I understand where you're coming from, but find it utterly out of context to this situation.


Considering when they found his truck it seemed to have broken down, I wonder how much he was able to prepare, or get to his 'base', if he even prepared one. Seeing as he's not yet been found, I also wonder if he's already offed himself?

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Pincherguy

If he has support from anyone I would think they would be right beside him gun in hand. Then they would be just as big of a nut bag as this ^%$#&r.
Some may think that there is corruption and there probably is. But I don't think anyone actualy supports him.
PG

Just do a search for "dorner support"... they may not be taking up arms with him, but he definitely has support. Similar to those who support the troops but don't sign up to take on the Taliban first hand...

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Well then for that to be the case he'd have had to consult with other like-minded people and formulate a plan. He didn't, probably because he knew his plan was both cruel, utterly criminal & insane and that any normal person privy to it would try to stop him. Revolutions are fine, but those take the will of the people, not the just the will of an individual a few sandwiches short of a lunch kit. I think I understand where you're coming from, but find it utterly out of context to this situation.


Considering when they found his truck it seemed to have broken down, I wonder how much he was able to prepare, or get to his 'base', if he even prepared one. Seeing as he's not yet been found, I also wonder if he's already offed himself?

That's a good point.. one man is a nut, 100 men are terrorists, the majority of the population?? I guess that legitimizes it cause like you said, then you have the will of the population...

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Just do a search for "dorner support"... they may not be taking up arms with him, but he definitely has support. Similar to those who support the troops but don't sign up to take on the Taliban first hand...

He has support as to people agree with him there is corruption in the LAPD that all. This is not support for him.

This from the search.

This is not a page about supporting the killing of innocent people. It’s supporting fighting back against corrupt cops and bringing to light what they do.”

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

What if the FBI is corrupted? Is there a point when the gen pop will agree with a lunatic and support his cause??

I guess a revolution is never warranted then... unless the revolt is successful..

What ifs can not be a justification for murder. Losing your job is not justification for murder. Racism is not justification for murder. Paranoia of the gun nuts s not justification for murder.

Your idea of searching for a justifiable murder would be an example of moral corruption.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Mekanik

Exactly. Your talk of revolutionaries and justification isn't really accurate in this context.

This guy might gain more sympathy from me had he stuck to the people who wronged him. We're those two patrolmen he ambushed evil, racist, liars who had done wrong by him or were they simply two regular officers on duty who were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

This is a person who is psychopath, nothing more. The only thing in his head is regaining his lost "honour".

Bullying in the work place may be an issue in some professions but it is not a justification for murder. I agree he is evil that snapped.

[BeeGuy]

There is no such thing as evil.

It is an abstract concept.

In all likeliness we will never know the real motive and mind set of this man.

I find your suggestion that certain types of thought and action are immoral to be greatly troubling.

It empowers tyranny, encourages slavery and Ovine like behavior.

The LAPD is far worse than what this guy is capable of. The LAPD has been shown to be full of guys like this. Rapists, murderers, gang bangers, thieves, you name it.

To suggest that it is morally incomprehensible for civilians to take action against oppression is an insult to civil society.

Fighting, often to the death is an unwavering characteristic of the human experience and every good man must know when to put down his plow and pick up his rifle. Those who would speak out against such actions support the abuses of authority, crimes against humanity, and encourage us to be managed more as agricultural products, than regarded as freemen.

Dorner may very well be a rampaging lunatic, however, the idea of fighting against tyranny can not be condemned as immoral as it would cost us our humanity.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

There is no such thing as evil.

It is an abstract concept.

In all likeliness we will never know the real motive and mind set of this man.

I find your suggestion that certain types of thought and action are immoral to be greatly troubling.

^^^^^^^^^^I can't aggree to this ^^^^^^^^^

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat...

Good and evil.....as abstract concepts........co-exist in the world. These concepts are based upon observing something that is real. However subjective these terms may be, in the philosophical, according to the laws of man, the laws of God, define to us what is good and what is evil. Evil is indeed real. It can be seen, it can be heard, it can be spoken.......it can be carried out. The fruit was eaten...men have the knowledge of what is good and what is evil...

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

There is no such thing as evil.

If there is no evil. then there can be no good either.
One can not exist without the other.

So I guess good is a abstract concept as well.

Seems to me that thinking evil is an abstract concept is the very thinking that one would have to use in order to commit murder.

You're treading on dangerous ground me thinks.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

If there is no evil. then there can be no good either.
One can not exist without the other.

So I guess good is a abstract concept as well.

Seems to me that thinking evil is an abstract concept is the very thinking that one would have to use in order to commit murder.

You're treading on dangerous ground me thinks.

He is just taking a contrary point for the sake of taking the debate in another direction. I would not think of it any other way.

Evil is not abstract. Thy shall not commit murder has been passed down for a long time.

What is abstract is ones opinion of tyranny. Not getting your own way...being called names...the boss does not like you. Some react differently under stress and some can not handle life...as life is not easy. Murder is an evil persons way out.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What is abstract is ones opinion of tyranny. Not getting your own way...being called names...the boss does not like you. Some react differently under stress and some can not handle life...as life is not easy. Murder is an evil persons way out.

We can look at any of the numerous revolutions in human history and there were people who disagreed with the uprising and considered it murder.

What's your opinion of tyranny? Is there a point where corruption can get so bad or oppressive that you'd consider it just to take up arms and kill?

And forget about Dorner, I am just wondering what your opinion is in general. I don't think many people would agree that the LAPD is so corrupt/oppressive that going on a killing spree is warranted..

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

We can look at any of the numerous revolutions in human history and there were people who disagreed with the uprising and considered it murder.

What's your opinion of tyranny? Is there a point where corruption can get so bad or oppressive that you'd consider it just to take up arms and kill?

And forget about Dorner, I am just wondering what your opinion is in general. I don't think many people would agree that the LAPD is so corrupt/oppressive that going on a killing spree is warranted..

Ok...but best to start a different thread...something along the lines of the Syrian, Libya, Egypt. What is an uprising and what is a group of nuts or a single nut job.

It will be an interesting thread.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Ok...but best to start a different thread...something along the lines of the Syrian, Libya, Egypt. What is an uprising and what is a group of nuts or a single nut job.

It will be an interesting thread.

Group of nuts: LAPD

Single Nut Job: Dorner

Not sure how many times I need to mention it, but the LAPD has a much longer, and more serious history of murder, mayhem, and much much more.

They are not innocents.

We have civilians killing civilians all the time and on a similar and much greater scale. Why does a threat to the LAPD get such a committed response? and a record level reward?

The gig is up.

[Mekanik]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

The LAPD is far worse than what this guy is capable of. The LAPD has been shown to be full of guys like this. Rapists, murderers, gang bangers, thieves, you name it.

To suggest that it is morally incomprehensible for civilians to take action against oppression is an insult to civil society.

Fighting, often to the death is an unwavering characteristic of the human experience and every good man must know when to put down his plow and pick up his rifle. Those who would speak out against such actions support the abuses of authority, crimes against humanity, and encourage us to be managed more as agricultural products, than regarded as freemen.

Dorner may very well be a rampaging lunatic, however, the idea of fighting against tyranny can not be condemned as immoral as it would cost us our humanity.

No, the idea of fighting against tyranny is not reprehensible to me. I consider that moral. I consider that just.

In this particular case, there is no tyranny. The injustice that many people claim and does exist have non-violent means to fight it. Those who would abuse their positions have and continue to find themselves punished but only when good people speak up.

Murdering a basketball coach and her fiancé is not speaking up. Ambushing two patrolmen in their cars is not speaking up.

The LAPD employs approximately 9500 officers and 3200 support staff. Of those 9500, how many would you say are racist and corrupt? The largest investigation into police corruption was the rampart affair that someone posted on here already: about 100 officers out of 9500 for a percentage of what? Which side of your equation were those two in the patrol car on? How do you know for sure?

I don't. Even then, try them and convict them.

The notion that after multiple investigations and allegations by this one man who was called by an ex as disturbed and paranoid, ex-co-workers that he was strange and always believed someone was out to get him, that he was somehow unjustly done by is a stretch as best. He had his daysin court and couldn't convince multiple people of the validity of his claims. At what point is the system so corrupt do you believe that everyone is on the payroll or no one really wants to make a difference?

[BeeGuy]

A brief history of the Los Angeles Police Department:

Sex Extortion by 12 and 15yr veterans. Jan 2013, investigation ongoing

Assault beating restrained people, including women, to death

Fraud financial transparency policy causes dozens of cops to quit

These are just some recent ones. There is enough to fill a library.

Yes, let us not forget the Rampart Scandal. unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting false evidense, framing suspects, stealing and drug dealing, perjury, rape, murder, robbery and so on, the extent of which will never be known

It's not like THIS was an isolated incident.

There should be rewards for those people identifying corruption and criminal behavior within the LAPD.

I certainly don't support Dorner, however, I can not in good conscience support a much more clear and significant threat.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

There is no such thing as evil.

It is an abstract concept.

In all likeliness we will never know the real motive and mind set of this man.

I find your suggestion that certain types of thought and action are immoral to be greatly troubling.

It empowers tyranny, encourages slavery and Ovine like behavior.

The LAPD is far worse than what this guy is capable of. The LAPD has been shown to be full of guys like this. Rapists, murderers, gang bangers, thieves, you name it.

To suggest that it is morally incomprehensible for civilians to take action against oppression is an insult to civil society.

Fighting, often to the death is an unwavering characteristic of the human experience and every good man must know when to put down his plow and pick up his rifle. Those who would speak out against such actions support the abuses of authority, crimes against humanity, and encourage us to be managed more as agricultural products, than regarded as freemen.

Dorner may very well be a rampaging lunatic, however, the idea of fighting against tyranny can not be condemned as immoral as it would cost us our humanity.

Not sure where you are going with the supposition highlighted above. We may disagree on a few points of right and wrong, but pure evil is fairly easy to recognize; or so I thought.

Him murdering innocent people doesn't not somehow avenge evil or cancel out some racist remarks made by a 3rd party.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

A brief history of the Los Angeles Police Department:

Sex Extortion by 12 and 15yr veterans. Jan 2013, investigation ongoing

Assault beating restrained people, including women, to death

Fraud financial transparency policy causes dozens of cops to quit

These are just some recent ones. There is enough to fill a library.

Yes, let us not forget the Rampart Scandal. unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting false evidense, framing suspects, stealing and drug dealing, perjury, rape, murder, robbery and so on, the extent of which will never be known

It's not like THIS was an isolated incident.

There should be rewards for those people identifying corruption and criminal behavior within the LAPD.

I certainly don't support Dorner, however, I can not in good conscience support a much more clear and significant threat.

In a police force the size of the LAPD it would be folly to think that not one of the officers in the ranks would be crooked. Just by searching crimes committed by police, or any other paramilitary group you can think of and factoring in the percentage vs. the whole, will tell you that this is a numbers game that every walk of life plays a part in.

There is not a single group that does not have a psychopath in it.

That being said, there may need to be some housecleaning done.

[BeeGuy]

Are you suggesting that systemic corruption is not possible and that it is merely "a numbers game"?

It is not a numbers game when entire departments are found to be corrupt and basically operating (TAX PAYER FUNDED) under a protocol of complete mayhem.