Immunisations, In Specific Polio

[Unregistered user]

How may people arguing against the Polio vaccine have young children of their own?

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Chief16

Wait, what? By allowing your body to make an improved immune response to the pathogen vaccinated for and not allowing disease means you are not immune?

That's the kicker right there, and the chink in the armor of the vax crowd. Do you really think you're 100% immune because you have updated vaccines? There is no guarantee that you are immune - and you won't find out until you're infected. If you are not 100%
immune - then you can still get a mild form of the virus and spread it. What's more dangerous?

This is why there are alarming rates of pertussis in the USA among infants - the FDA proved it.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

How may people arguing against the Polio vaccine have young children of their own?

Not once did I argue the polio vaccine. What I am questioning is how a virus suddenly made the leap to paralysis when it was around for likely thousands of years with no real effects. Lead and arsenic were everywhere in the environment, sprayed on the food supply.

Was the population immunocompromised because of it? We have a good idea of what lead and arsenic and other heavy metals do to our nervous systems.

Even today, there are countries that still use leaded fuel. What is it doing to the population?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

That's the kicker right there, and the chink in the armor of the vax crowd. Do you really think you're 100% immune because you have updated vaccines? There is no guarantee that you are immune - and you won't find out until you're infected. If you are not 100%
immune - then you can still get a mild form of the virus and spread it. What's more dangerous?

This is why there are alarming rates of pertussis in the USA among infants - the FDA proved it.

https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/index.html

and I quote.



The best way to protect against pertussis is by getting vaccinated.


You quote government websites like they validate your fears or make your outlandish fears are fact...when in fact that website states you should vaccinate.

So your link says you should vaccinate...therefore you are in agreement the best defense to protect children is to follow their recommendations.

To quote an actual study from your link.



Lancet Infect Dis. 2017 Sep;17(9):974-980. doi: 10.1016/S1473-3099(17)30390-0. Epub 2017 Jun 13.

An update of the global burden of pertussis in children younger than 5 years: a modelling study.

Yeung KHT1, Duclos P2, Nelson EAS1, Hutubessy RCW3.



Author information


Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Since the publication in 2003 of a model to estimate the disease burden of pertussis, new evidence of the protective effect of incomplete pertussis vaccination against severe pertussis has been reported. We revised the model to provide new estimates of regional and global pertussis cases and deaths for children younger than 5 years.

METHODS:

We developed a revised model with data from 2014 to estimate pertussis cases and deaths. Pertussis cases were defined according to the WHO clinical case definition, as a coughing illness lasting at least 2 weeks with paroxysms of coughing, inspiratory whooping, or post-tussive vomiting. We used UN population estimates and WHO and UNICEF data on national pertussis immunisation coverage. Estimates were made for vaccine effectiveness against pertussis cases and deaths for one, two, and three doses of vaccination, probability of infection in low and high coverage countries, and case fatality ratios in low and high mortality countries in two age groups: infants younger than 1 year and children aged 1-4 years. We did sensitivity analyses with a range of input parameters to assess the effect of uncertainty of the input parameters on the model outputs.

FINDINGS:

We estimated that there were 24·1 million pertussis cases and 160 700 deaths from pertussis in children younger than 5 years in 2014, with the African region contributing the largest proportions (7·8 million [33%] cases and 92 500 [58%] deaths). 5·1 million (21%) estimated pertussis cases and 85 900 (53%) estimated deaths were in infants younger than 1 year. In the sensitivity analyses, the estimated number of cases ranged from 7 million to 40 million and deaths from 38 000 to 670 000.

INTERPRETATION:

Our estimates suggest that, compared with the 1999 estimates published in 2003 (30·6 million pertussis cases and 390 000 deaths from pertussis in children younger than 5 years), the numbers of cases and deaths of pertussis have fallen substantially. Model sensitivity emphasised the importance of better surveillance to improve country-level decision making and pertussis control.

FUNDING:

None.

Copyright © 2017 World Health Organization. Published by Elsevier Ltd/Inc/BV. All rights reserved. Published by Elsevier Ltd.. All rights reserved.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28623146

Thanks for proving that the best prevention of disease and death in infants is once again mass immunization against a deadly disease. Thanks again for proving that everyone should vaccinate and save lives.

[the11fisherman]

I am starting to get convinced that there are just a bunch of guys on here that that are provaccination but are just pretending to be against it because they are bored and want to stir the pot because there is no way that there can be this much stupidity in one thread without people purposely enhancing it.......

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

You think people are going to stop vaxxing because of a thread on AO? Ridiculous

But please, explain to me how it is that 20% of children will be diagnosed with a developmental disability? I call that disturbing. If the murder rate were 20%, you bet people would be up in arms and looking for a solution.

Again. from Wikipedia.

Correlation does not imply causation. In statistics, many statistical tests calculate correlations between variables and when two variables are found to be correlated, it is tempting to assume that this shows that one variable causes the other.

Likely the increase as most professionals say is due to diagnosis. Not pushing a child off to the fringe of society for being "dumb". Understanding the range.

Diet could be the most important factor. Stress as seems to be increasing in our society is also a potential contributing factor.

Other oddities that have infested our world like aspartame and other food additives. Maybe a cause. Drinking, smoking, drugs could be a factor. Over the counter drugs that people take willy nilly like cough medication could be a contributing factor. Lack of essential nutrients and vitamins in the mother for a growing fetus. Could be caused on the male side passed through sperm. Could be on the developing side during pregnancy. Definitely doesn't happen after as any parent with kids can certainly tell you that they recognized something different compared to their other kids if on the noticeable autism spectrum.

You have latched on to a sinking argument my friend. So much you feel is true on the internet is nothing but garbage to lure you in and support their click ads.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

That's the kicker right there, and the chink in the armor of the vax crowd. Do you really think you're 100% immune because you have updated vaccines? There is no guarantee that you are immune - and you won't find out until you're infected. If you are not 100%
immune - then you can still get a mild form of the virus and spread it. What's more dangerous?

This is why there are alarming rates of pertussis in the USA among infants - the FDA proved it.

Never once said vaccines make you 100% immune but nothing in biology is 100%, but I'll take any increase over no protection.
I said previously that I don't want to argue over the internet and I'll stick to that. Thank you for the discussion.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/index.html

and I quote.

Yes, the CDC recommends cocooning to protect the baby. The FDA did the research after the fact to test the theory because so many infants were dying - they proved cocooning can be dangerous.

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Yes, and it was a sincere question. It states "Mr Curtis said cases of vaccine-derived polio were very*rare;*in 2016, more than 450 million*children were vaccinated against polio, and there were five cases of paralysis caused by polio that*originated from*a vaccine. He said the threat only existed in under-immunised populations, where the live, weakened virus originally contained in the oral polio vaccine (OPV) can mutate over time and circulate in the environment."

So while under-immunized populations are more at risk (obviously), is the polio outbreak currently happening a result of a mutation from a vaccine that was previously in use?

Im starting to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. The outbreak is in Syria where

1) they have a poor percentage of vaccine
2) they have extremely poor sanitary conditions allowing the opv to continue to proliferate and mutate
3) they have a very poor level of healthcare overall.
4) it takes upwards of a year of these conditions for this to happen
5) between the two articles this was clearly written in plain English anyone with a grade 9 level oif schooling could understand

So what exactly do you not understand?

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Yes, the CDC recommends cocooning to protect the baby. The FDA did the research after the fact to test the theory because so many infants were dying - they proved cocooning can be dangerous.

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

[the11fisherman]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

Im starting to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. The outbreak is in Syria where

1) they have a poor percentage of vaccine
2) they have extremely poor sanitary conditions allowing the opv to continue to proliferate and mutate
3) they have a very poor level of healthcare overall.
4) it takes upwards of a year of these conditions for this to happen
5) between the two articles this was clearly written info plain English anyone with a grade 9 level oif schooling could understand

So what exactly do you not understand?

If they have not understood yet, I don't think it will be beaten in.....we've tried.....but sadly there isn't a vaccine for stupidity yet....

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Yes, the CDC recommends cocooning to protect the baby. The FDA did the research after the fact to test the theory because so many infants were dying - they proved cocooning can be dangerous.

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

Drop the bone. Vaccinations are saving lives. You keep gnawing away however you are so narrowly focused you miss everything but your minutia of point.

Vaccinations are most effective if everyone is vaccinated. If everyone is vaccinated you can wipe the disease out. If just a few people are convinced by people like you the effort can be seriously undermined and additional preventative steps are necessary.

While I think bad choices of people are there fault...there should also be a liability against those that are so blatantly wrong.

Nothing wrong with saying vaccinations can be improved. Foolhardy and down right irresponsible to suggest to others and twist facts that could make the gullible not vaccinate their children.

Again. You often veer from one complaint to another...however I answered your autism point clearly and factually.

Your other points in past threads have been refuted.


I refuted your current fear on Pertussis that shows how many lives are saved.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Yes, the CDC recommends cocooning to protect the baby. The FDA did the research after the fact to test the theory because so many infants were dying - they proved cocooning can be dangerous.

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

You missed the quote.

The best way to protect against pertussis is by getting vaccinated.

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Not once did I argue the polio vaccine. What I am questioning is how a virus suddenly made the leap to paralysis when it was around for likely thousands of years with no real effects. Lead and arsenic were everywhere in the environment, sprayed on the food supply.

Was the population immunocompromised because of it? We have a good idea of what lead and arsenic and other heavy metals do to our nervous systems.

Even today, there are countries that still use leaded fuel. What is it doing to the population?

It's called mutation. The same thing that resulted in people being born with blue eyes or that allows viruses that only affect one species to eventually make the jump to another. It happens over long periods of time due to problems in cell replication. Some mutations are good and some are bad, most are benign. This is a very dumbed down explanation but if you are interested in the subject grab a microbiology book and get to studying.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Not once did I argue the polio vaccine. What I am questioning is how a virus suddenly made the leap to paralysis when it was around for likely thousands of years with no real effects. Lead and arsenic were everywhere in the environment, sprayed on the food supply.

Was the population immunocompromised because of it? We have a good idea of what lead and arsenic and other heavy metals do to our nervous systems.

Even today, there are countries that still use leaded fuel. What is it doing to the population?

Broad generalizations based upon your assumptions and guesses don't do any factual conversations justice. Fact is polio has been around for ever. Romans, Egyptians and earlier. Where there is recorded history...there is evidence of Polio. You can assume that before recorded history it was there also. Paralysis was the result.

Not too long ago...people didn't know why people just died. What we understand as disease and illness was not understood. Also the recorded history back in the day was more interested in recording war and famine versus the odd person being knocked off here and there.

It wasn't until later in time...like 430 BC that people started tracking. What they tracked was deaths.

Polio is very debilitating and can cause death...however with kids for instance the mortality rate is 2-5%.

Therefore going back in time to assume Polio has become worst due to people implies a lack of understand both of impacts of an increasing dense population culture and knowing the difference between tracking deaths versus disability.

My buddy had polio as a kid and is alive. He has muscle problems later in life.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Yes, the CDC recommends cocooning to protect the baby. The FDA did the research after the fact to test the theory because so many infants were dying - they proved cocooning can be dangerous.

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

I actually read the study. Did you?

Here's the conclusion to the paper:

However, it is important to note that our data in combination with human data show that vaccination with aP provides excellent protection from severe pertussis (52). Therefore, any short-term plan for addressing the resurgence of pertussis should include continued efforts to enhance aP immunization.


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/787.full

Truly, truly damning stuff you've found there, Silverdoctor. You've managed to cite a paper that explicitly recommends increased immunization.

[Positrac]

Originally Posted by the11fisherman

I am starting to get convinced that there are just a bunch of guys on here that that are provaccination but are just pretending to be against it because they are bored and want to stir the pot because there is no way that there can be this much stupidity in one thread without people purposely enhancing it.......

Yup. Nail on head...

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by the11fisherman

If they have not understood yet, I don't think it will be beaten in.....we've tried.....but sadly there isn't a vaccine for stupidity yet....

When they develop that “stupidity” vaccine, I’ll volunteer to hold him down

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Why? Because you can be vaccinated - still get pertussis and pass it on to the unvaxxed. Why don't you read the article from the FDA? Or is the FDA now fake news?

So how exactly is being unvaccinated an improvement on this situation? I'm trying to understand your argument here but it doesn't make any sense. Yes people often misunderstand exactly what the benefits of vaccine derived immunity are but that's hardly an argument against the concept of herd immunity. Yeah it would be great if people understood the nuance of this better but we can say that about a lot of things can't we?

I'm also starting to get the impression you think that the immune response you get from actually experiencing the disease is preferable to vaccination. While it may be more effective when you are exposed to the same viral strain again this is a seriously irresponsible attitude when applied to the larger population.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You missed the quote.

The best way to protect against pertussis is by getting vaccinated.

I find it simply amazing how the conservative right or far right can turn into social justice warriors on certain topics. You want to shut down the conversation, you're telling people not to look at evidence or any facts that arise - you want to censor. And that by definition is social justice.

I agree with your quote - you're protected (for the most part) from the pertussis virus once you're vaccinated. Unfortunately, the FDA has PROVEN that you can infect others - how is that herd immunity? What part of that don't you get? That is a breach of vaccine protocol - it works against what vaccines are SUPPOSED to do which is protect the weak. But it's easier to blame anyone that is antivax.

I can't get pertussis, I can't spread it. I am immune - vaccinated people are not.

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

So how exactly is being unvaccinated an improvement on this situation? .

Lets take pertussis again - and look at the FDA's findings.

Once you're vaccinated for pertussis, there's a 6 week waiting period. So you wait the 6 weeks, then feel you are immune. However, if you get a cough after the fact, most won't think anything of it. You can be infected with pertussis while vaccinated - and spread it to others. I fail to understand how that is herd immunity, that is not the strong protecting the weak - that's the strong killing the weak.

[Digger1]

Everyone’s an expert until your kid’s unconscious and in the hospital. Been there, done that. Can anyone tell me if modern vaccines have the same ingredients as they did 50 years ago?

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I can't get pertussis, I can't spread it. I am immune - vaccinated people are not.

Yeah that's where I thought you were going with this.

YOU ARE WRONG.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

How may people arguing against the Polio vaccine have young children of their own?

I for one am not arguing against the polio vaccine, I am arguing against mandatory vaccines or general ostraziation by society.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Digger1

Everyone’s an expert until your kid’s unconscious and in the hospital. Been there, done that.

From what?

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Yeah that's where I though you were going with this.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Wrong about what? That you can still be infected after vaccination?

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

My generation is likely the last of the true "herd immunity". This vaccine protocol herd immunity isn't working properly and the FDA proved it. I'm tired of the antivax crowd being blamed. There are so many outbreaks among the vaxxed, caused by the vaccinated, protocol is breaking.

For those that claim that not vaccinating children is abuse, then my mother should have been thrown in jail I guess. She brought us to the chicken pox parties, got us measles, mumps and all the other childhood diseases. What a cow eh? But yet, I can't thank her enough for it - she made me immune to the typical childhood diseases - and parents back in the 70's weren't afraid of these diseases like parents are today, they knew how to treat it as well. She put up with the weeks of being a nurse to her children through all these diseases - thank you Mom. Many times I've taken care of friends kids that were sick with these diseases while the vaxxed parents were heading for the door.

With vaccinations, you are not 100% immune. Yes, you can still get infected - probably a mild case - but realize that if you get infected with chicken pox or measles, then you are still contagious and you can still transmit it. How is that a solid herd immunity? How is that protecting the weak? You've been vaccinated from pertussis, you get a mild cough and likely won't think about it - but you are contagious. How many babies are dying because of this cocooning protocol?

Yes, the good old days when real men weren't afraid of those silly little
viruses. You do realize that in 1970 the average male could expect to live until around 68. How about 1900 when that number was closer to 48 ???

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

That's the kicker right there, and the chink in the armor of the vax crowd. Do you really think you're 100% immune because you have updated vaccines? There is no guarantee that you are immune - and you won't find out until you're infected. If you are not 100%
immune - then you can still get a mild form of the virus and spread it. What's more dangerous?

This is why there are alarming rates of pertussis in the USA among infants - the FDA proved it.

You need to do a little reading up on the math involved with spreading communicable diseases.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

Im starting to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. The outbreak is in Syria where

1) they have a poor percentage of vaccine
2) they have extremely poor sanitary conditions allowing the opv to continue to proliferate and mutate
3) they have a very poor level of healthcare overall.
4) it takes upwards of a year of these conditions for this to happen
5) between the two articles this was clearly written in plain English anyone with a grade 9 level oif schooling could understand

So what exactly do you not understand?

I understand the article.

On a somewhat unrelated note,

What would have the greatest affect on keeping these people healthy?
- better sanitation
- better health care
- better vaccinations

What has had the most profound impact on combatting disease over the last 1000 years?

I'm not asking those questions on a pro/anti vax position, I am genuinely curious.

[fitzy]

I'm still waiting to hear if SilverDoc keeps his dog up to date on his shots....

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by Newview01

I understand the article.

On a somewhat unrelated note,

What would have the greatest affect on keeping these people healthy?
- better sanitation
- better health care
- better vaccinations

What has had the most profound impact on combatting disease over the last 1000 years?

I'm not asking those questions on a pro/anti vax position, I am genuinely curious.

History has proven its sanitation. What's your point. One does not negate the other.

[Digger1]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

From what?



Wrong about what? That you can still be infected after vaccination?

Refer to post 40