Redford gov't screws over Provincial Employees

[ali#1]

[QUOTE=rugatika;2228159]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I'm all for screwing the middle class and giving it to the rich. What was that tax cut the rich just got ?.[/QUOTE

You're against tax cuts now?

I am not for taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

[rottie]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What would people do if the could make one change to the union system?

I would change HR so that quality employees can get rewarded and bad employees get fired.

All union lovers will admit there are poison, dead wood, useless employees that getting rid of is next to impossible.

In most union shops there is absolutely no incentive to do better than anyone else. This lack of motivation stifles creativity and productivity.

IMHO

I am part of a Union, a Union steward actually.and yes will admit there is some dead wood. But so was there in some non unionized jobs I have had.
In a Union setting the lazy can be weeded out if managment is willing to do their part and document the issues.
The problem is two part,most managers wont do it and the lazy twitts know it

I have to give our managment credit as they have done what was need to remove some of the deadwood,wish more would,then the rest would pull up there socks

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You severely under estimate personal pride.

We had a guy a work who was a good employee had 33 years in. He was the kind if guy oh called a spade a spade and rubbed some manager the wrong way. He was a shop steward for a time aswell. Long story short they fired him without going through the process they are supposed to. This guy was never even written up in 33 years. So he went to the union and now it's in arbitration and by all looks he is probably going to win and get awarded 3 years back pay, a pension top up and be reinstated. Think he would have gotten that without the union ?

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by rottie

I am part of a Union, a Union steward actually.and yes will admit there is some dead wood. But so was there in some non unionized jobs I have had.
In a Union setting the lazy can be weeded out if managment is willing to do their part and document the issues.
The problem is two part,most managers wont do it and the lazy twitts know it

I have to give our managment credit as they have done what was need to remove some of the deadwood,wish more would,then the rest would pull up there socks

I agree.

Our management seems to get rid of people who speak up whether they are lazy or not.

[ali#1]

You see the problem is poor and middle class people have terrible lobbyists.

[rugatika]

[QUOTE=ali#1;2228259]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I am not for taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

I'm not for "taking" from anyone.

Here, I'll let this filthy little capitalist explain it to you...maybe she will have better luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVEevBXfPJs

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I agree.

Our management seems to get rid of people who speak up whether they are lazy or not.

There are still a few of the "old school" managers out there that like the guys who are just happy to have a job and don't question anything, and there are quite a few of those kind of employees on here. You can identify them by their rally cry "if you don't like the job just quit". Fortunately most employees have more spine than that, and choose to challenge conditions/policies that they feel are inadequate, unsafe or unfair.

A lot more of the newer (and successful) managers value input from the employees, even if some of it is somewhat negative, as it gives them a chance to resolve issues before they escalate. They actually realize and appreciate the value of the employees, regardless of their position or years with the company.

[mally]

this the first attack of many to come
get rid of arbitration
i guess the red queen has spoken

[ali#1]

[QUOTE=rugatika;2228298]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I'm not for "taking" from anyone.

Here, I'll let this filthy little capitalist explain it to you...maybe she will have better luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVEevBXfPJs

Didn't this government give the top a 5% tax cut. And now they say they have to freeze wages of public workers to save money ? What would you calm that rug ?

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by mally

this the first attack of many to come
get rid of arbitration
i guess the red queen has spoken

Nobody cares If it doesn't directly effect them. They someday it will and when it does it's too late.

If you go back 7 pages you will see an argument over ideology not dollars and cents.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

This post shows your absolute lack of understanding in regards to pensions. Go read that book again. And when your done, do it again. And then read your post and see how it lacks any knowledge of how pensions function.

I'll give you a synopsis....current contributions fund future pensions.....current pensions are funded by past contributions....money is pooled for investment purposes.....current contributions do not fund current pensions.....actuarial calculations are made based on life expectancy, RoR, etc to determine how much current members and employers need to contribute to meet future obligations.
And this is for most defined benefit public and private sector pensions.

In the case of Ford Motor co. .....OOPS!!!!......big problem....didn't figure that correctly when bargaining with the union. If their issues with pensions are not fixed, it will bankrupt them. (Nice how I can tie Rugatikas Ford references. With Ali's union stance and your pension thoughts)

But back to Pesky....we're talking AUPE .....so in regard to their pension, your wrong!!!

I understand that we are talking about AUPE...I used the feds as an example only.
The Ont Teachers pension fund is another good example.

In Alberta the provincial employees cut their own throats and left themselves vulnerable when Kline offered them a pension arrangement similar to that of the federal employees.
The result is that now they are at the mercy of the government.

Regardless a pooled resource fares better than individual contributions.

Perhaps... you should read that book again.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Why is an employee of a company entitled to a share of the profits all of a sudden? If he wants a share of the profits he should buy shares in that company and risk his own money. OR like I have seen many times right here in Alberta. If an employee doesn't like working for a wage, start up his own company, risk his own capital and reap the rewards or reap the losses.


Talk about out and out greed and envy. What a bunch of children. You really have to stand back and ask yourselves who is being greedy?

Seriously?

Are you joking?

So people should work for free then?
You know what folks would call that right?

All wages are a portion of the profit are they not?

Why should workers now not expect a portion that is proportionate to the share that their fathers recieved in the 50's?

The wages of the common labouror have not kept up to the increases in profit or the wages of the executive class....not by a long shot.

This is further exacerbated by an increase in taxes against the missle class and a relaxation of same for the wealthy and for corporations.

WE...support through our taxes not only corporations and the rich but... people who have been buggered by them even more severly than us.
The working poor. People who work multiple jobs at a minimum wage that is not even half of what it ought to be and require subsidization.(for instance)

Wow Rugs... I can't believe you even said that about fair share of the profit.

Who would have thought in this day and age that any Canadian would not recognize that a man should be fairly paid from the profits by those who they labour for?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What would people do if the could make one change to the union system?

I would change HR so that quality employees can get rewarded and bad employees get fired.

All union lovers will admit there are poison, dead wood, useless employees that getting rid of is next to impossible.

In most union shops there is absolutely no incentive to do better than anyone else. This lack of motivation stifles creativity and productivity.

IMHO

Correct.

The idea of a union was to protect WORKERS... not slugs.

That said...as someone else ementioned... the claim that ties work ethic or the lack thereof to unions is bunk.
I have not been in a union since 1986 but... I do spend quite a biot of time in both union and non-union workplaces and....
I've met as many if not more slugs in places run by chronyism and nepotism than in union shop I've ever been in.

Run away unionism has been all but killed and that is a good thing however it does not follow that going all the way and killing organized labour is good either.

The old enemy is our new friend and the new enemy is our old friend.

Out of control Capitalism is hurting people more than organized labour ever did or could have.

Guys need to try to keep up... Hoffa is dead and this is not the 1970's.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Seriously?

Are you joking?

So people should work for free then?
You know what folks would call that right?

All wages are a portion of the profit are they not?

Why should workers now not expect a portion that is proportionate to the share that their fathers recieved in the 50's?

The wages of the common labouror have not kept up to the increases in profit or the wages of the executive class....not by a long shot.

This is further exacerbated by an increase in taxes against the missle class and a relaxation of same for the wealthy and for corporations.

WE...support through our taxes not only corporations and the rich but... people who have been buggered by them even more severly than us.
The working poor. People who work multiple jobs at a minimum wage that is not even half of what it ought to be and require subsidization.(for instance)

Wow Rugs... I can't believe you even said that about fair share of the profit.

Who would have thought in this day and age that any Canadian would not recognize that a man should be fairly paid from the profits by those who they labour for?

"All wages are a portion of the profit" BDB

Wages are an expense. Revenue minus expenses equal profit.

Love to see you try and slip that past the old company accountant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABJWG0gszDA

Labour is a commodity subject to market fluctuations. Jack the minimum wage for flipping burgers up to $30 and hour. Wonder what will happen then? http://gizmodo.com/5962656/this-robo...urgers-an-hour Congratulations...you just lost a million starter jobs for people looking for experience in the job market. How about we pay everyone $56 an hour for working in a car factory in Detroit. Congratulations...you just bankrupted Detroit.

So why don't unions start up their own companies? Now we know why.

I'm not going to try and teach you rudimentary economics here. But you need to educate yourself. It's ideas like those found in your little rant that have caused much heartache for families in western countries over the last generation.

PS: I always enjoy your feigned outrage. Very dramatic.

PPS: I'm not saying that ALL unions are bad, or overly greedy. Some of them are very reasonable and work with management in a cooperative manner and have excellent work ethics and a high degree of professionalism. I just don't like the idea that workers think they are entitled to a share of the profits of a company without any of the capital risk.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by rugatika

"All wages are a portion of the profit" BDB

Wages are an expense. Revenue minus expenses equal profit.

Love to see you try and slip that past the old company accountant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABJWG0gszDA

Labour is a commodity subject to market fluctuations. Jack the minimum wage for flipping burgers up to $30 and hour. Wonder what will happen then? http://gizmodo.com/5962656/this-robo...urgers-an-hour Congratulations...you just lost a million starter jobs for people looking for experience in the job market. How about we pay everyone $56 an hour for working in a car factory in Detroit. Congratulations...you just bankrupted Detroit.

So why don't unions start up their own companies? Now we know why.

I'm not going to try and teach you rudimentary economics here. But you need to educate yourself. It's ideas like those found in your little rant that have caused much heartache for families in western countries over the last generation.

PS: I always enjoy your feigned outrage. Very dramatic.

PPS: I'm not saying that ALL unions are bad, or overly greedy. Some of them are very reasonable and work with management in a cooperative manner and have excellent work ethics and a high degree of professionalism. I just don't like the idea that workers think they are entitled to a share of the profits of a company without any of the capital risk.

So what's your answer ? People should accept less and less pay, worse jobs no benefits and pensions that disappear when you go to collect them ?.

Rich people don't create Job they create wealth, lots of companies are making record profits and laying people off as we type. Jobs are a off shoot of creating wealth not the primary reason.

[TBD]

Originally Posted by ali#1

So what's your answer ? People should accept less and less pay, worse jobs no benefits and pensions that disappear when you go to collect them ?.

Rich people don't create Job they create wealth, lots of companies are making record profits and laying people off as we type. Jobs are a off shoot of creating wealth not the primary reason.

In the not to far off future, as with AG more and more menial labour jobs will be displaced .... and I'm not even talking about Japan's recent strides in humanoid roboticist designs and it's implications.

TBD

PS ... one day rich people will just tire of dealing with whinny troublesome workers and if Japan's hopes to become the supplier of useful robotic machinery are fulfilled - people like you'll have nothing to gripe about.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by TBD

In the not to far off future, as with AG more and more menial labour jobs will be displaced .... and I'm not even talking about Japan's recent strides in humanoid roboticist designs and it's implications.

TBD

PS ... one day rich people will just tire of dealing with whinny troublesome workers and if Japan's hopes to become the supplier of useful robotic machinery are fulfilled - people like you'll have nothing to gripe about.

So you think the dark ages were good ? Where there are only the extremely rich an extremely poor and nobody in the middle ? Mexico is like that right now works out good for them I guess only 20000 murders last year.

I don't know why you guys are against the middle class so much is everybody here independently wealthy ?.

[TBD]

but if your worried about the middle class, you should be watching the dems down south and lefty socialist provincial govt's here in Canada.

It's THEM THAT'LL WIPE OUT the middle CLASS - not business.

I'm OUT !

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by TBD

but if your worried about the middle class, you should be watching the dems down south and lefty socialist provincial govt's here in Canada.

It's THEM THAT'LL WIPE OUT the middle CLASS - not business.

I'm OUT !

Anti union is anti middle class.

[TBD]

one more post ....

You have Canada employment standards for protection, no need for unions.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by TBD

one more post ....

You have Canada employment standards for protection, no need for unions.

You mean the teethless labour laws that always agree with the employer ?

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by ali#1

So what's your answer ? People should accept less and less pay, worse jobs no benefits and pensions that disappear when you go to collect them ?.

Rich people don't create Job they create wealth, lots of companies are making record profits and laying people off as we type. Jobs are a off shoot of creating wealth not the primary reason.

My head hurts.

So are you willing to risk all your savings, re-mortgage your house and start up a company (lets say a coffee shop). Lease a property, pay your employees $35/hr, paperwork etc etc....all so that you can earn zero return on your investment?? And there;s no guarantee your coffee shop won't completely fail, and you lose every cent you put into it.

i will be the very first person to buy a cup of coffe from your new store (unless you're charging $15 a cup, which is what you'll probably have to charge to break even). Let me know when it opens up.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by rugatika

My head hurts.

So are you willing to risk all your savings, re-mortgage your house and start up a company (lets say a coffee shop). Lease a property, pay your employees $35/hr, paperwork etc etc....all so that you can earn zero return on your investment?? And there;s no guarantee your coffee shop won't completely fail, and you lose every cent you put into it.

i will be the very first person to buy a cup of coffe from your new store (unless you're charging $15 a cup, which is what you'll probably have to charge to break even). Let me know when it opens up.

I believe you have lost it my friend. Your projecting a lot and not makin any sense. Not once did I ever say I was against small business or a guy trying to make a buck. Your thinking small I'm thinking big.

If a guy thinks that he's going to make $35 an hour servin coffee he's dilusional. If you believe that suncor need a tax break when they are making record profits then your the dilusional one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a military guy ?

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by ali#1

Anti union is anti middle class.

If you think this way, Rugatika is wasting his energy replying to you posts. Your statement might have been partially right at the begin of the 19th and first part of the 20th century, but is EXACTLY the problems with many ardent union members and most union beaucracies......so out of date and out of step with the real world And any dynamics outside of their little microcosm of their own jobs.

It's people and attitudes like yours Ali#1 that give unions And union members a bad name. They have a place in the scheme of thing that can help make this country better for all, but too many times they are only concerned with filling their own greedy little pockets for day and ignorant of the future. They have wasted their opportunities in the last 30years and left a bad taste in general.

If your going to be of any positive effect, drop the stupid slogans, re-educate yourself, read unbiased books, forget your brain-washed chants, and maybe unions and the middle class will survive.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I believe you have lost it my friend. Your projecting a lot and not makin any sense. Not once did I ever say I was against small business or a guy trying to make a buck. Your thinking small I'm thinking big.

If a guy thinks that he's going to make $35 an hour servin coffee he's dilusional. If you believe that suncor need a tax break when they are making record profits then your the dilusional one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a military guy ?

Who do you think owns Suncor? Better check your RRSP's or any other investments so many others own. That money you made in that mutual fund. You my friend are the "evil rich guy" So until you guys all take all those evil "profits" you made with your RRSP's and give them back to the workers, you can drop the holier than thou attitude. Those evil profits and company dividends paid out, are what keeps the heat turned on at grandpa and grandma's house or helps to grow little Timmy's college education fund.


When the gov't taxes Suncor, who do you think pays those taxes? Do you think Suncor pulls that money out of their profit column? Ha. That's what makes those numbers on the Shell sign spin up and up my friend. You can increase taxes all you want on Suncor, they'll just keep passing those costs on to the consumer.

Annnnd, wrong again. Never been in the military.

Do you have the iphone 4 or 5?

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

If you think this way, Rugatika is wasting his energy replying to you posts. Your statement might have been partially right at the begin of the 19th and first part of the 20th century, but is EXACTLY the problems with many ardent union members and most union beaucracies......so out of date and out of step with the real world And any dynamics outside of their little microcosm of their own jobs.

It's people and attitudes like yours Ali#1 that give unions And union members a bad name. They have a place in the scheme of thing that can help make this country better for all, but too many times they are only concerned with filling their own greedy little pockets for day and ignorant of the future. They have wasted their opportunities in the last 30years and left a bad taste in general.

If your going to be of any positive effect, drop the stupid slogans, re-educate yourself, read unbiased books, forget your brain-washed chants, and maybe unions and the middle class will survive.

So your happy with the way things are ?

Are unions perfect ? No but neither are companies or governments, but I know as a lowly worker which one has my best interests in mind. It's too bad when middle class people attack other middle class people when the uber rich are making off like bandits and nobody noticed. Record profits and lower taxes when is it gonna be enough ? When they get the very last dollar from your pocket.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Who do you think owns Suncor? Better check your RRSP's or any other investments so many others own. That money you made in that mutual fund. You my friend are the "evil rich guy" So until you guys all take all those evil "profits" you made with your RRSP's and give them back to the workers, you can drop the holier than thou attitude. Those evil profits and company dividends paid out, are what keeps the heat turned on at grandpa and grandma's house or helps to grow little Timmy's college education fund.


When the gov't taxes Suncor, who do you think pays those taxes? Do you think Suncor pulls that money out of their profit column? Ha. That's what makes those numbers on the Shell sign spin up and up my friend. You can increase taxes all you want on Suncor, they'll just keep passing those costs on to the consumer.

Annnnd, wrong again. Never been in the military.

I'm not against anybody making profit but when it comes at the expense of Lowe tax rates that nobody needed but paid for then I have a problem. Suncor makes millions of dollars an hour and they pay less taxes than you and me, then the government says they have to legislate lower wages for firefighters and prison guards because of the deficit left I think there is something wrong with the system, it's rigged in favour of the rich and powerful. The government has been bought and paid for decades ago and they could care less about you and me except election time where they repeat slogan and the dumb eat them up. Remember this is supposed to be a government of and by the people not of the rich and dictated to the pesants.

[ProSK-Antiroyalty]

The old Henry ford argument. Henry was a genius and did some great things like the five dollar per day raise and I think he meant well but not always for the right reasons.

Most anti union people remind me of henry fords plant thug Harry Bennet. A very stupid person who would rather beat a worker than try to problem solve with a worker to help figure out ways of making a living wage for himself and his family. Anti union people care about one person.............themselves.

Harry bennets handling of the plant gave fire to unions who stood up for each other. I am totally pro union even though i admit it is not a perfect system itself, and I see capitalism as an economic model that is a flash in the pan and could definitely use some tweaking. And redfords banning of arbitration and punishments for strike talk in bills 45 and 46 are against the charter and will waste taxpayer money when it goes to the courts.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I'm not against anybody making profit but when it comes at the expense of Lowe tax rates that nobody needed but paid for then I have a problem. Suncor makes millions of dollars an hour and they pay less taxes than you and me, then the government says they have to legislate lower wages for firefighters and prison guards because of the deficit left I think there is something wrong with the system, it's rigged in favour of the rich and powerful. The government has been bought and paid for decades ago and they could care less about you and me except election time where they repeat slogan and the dumb eat them up. Remember this is supposed to be a government of and by the people not of the rich and dictated to the pesants.

So you agree with me that we need to drastically reduce the size of government.

See my sig line re: Ibn Kahldun re tax rates.


INstead of just replying back to me with some emotional rant about wealth redistribution why don't you take some time to think about some of the ideas presented in this thread, do some basic reading on elementary economics and tax rates and so on. Think about what you would do as CEO of some giant company that just found out they were going to pay more taxes. Or if your employees were some of the highest paid in the world and they kept wanting more. Or if you knew there were thousands and thousands of regular folks counting on you to make the right decisions so they can retire on their stock portfolio that they spent their whole lives building up.

Just think for a bit. As a rational person making rational choices.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by ProSK-Antiroyalty

The old Henry ford argument. Henry was a genius and did some great things like the five dollar per day raise and I think he meant well but not always for the right reasons.

Most anti union people remind me of henry fords plant thug Harry Bennet. A very stupid person who would rather beat a worker than try to problem solve with a worker to help figure out ways of making a living wage for himself and his family. Anti union people care about one person.............themselves.

Harry bennets handling of the plant gave fire to unions who stood up for each other. I am totally pro union even though i admit it is not a perfect system itself, and I see capitalism as an economic model that is a flash in the pan and could definitely use some tweaking. And redfords banning of arbitration and punishments for strike talk in bills 45 and 46 are against the charter and will waste taxpayer money when it goes to the courts.

A point that's lost on most people here. In the long run this whole 45 and 46 will cost the taxpayers more, just like the union busting by Harper and co at the post office and cn. In the end the courts will rule in the unions favour and will cost cn and the taxpayers more in the end.