Outfitter allocations

[diamonddave]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what Chuck is trying to do? To get answers from the top?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Dr Death

To rub salt in the wound of this issue, an outfitter who holds wmu 400 mule deer tags was recently convicted of baiting bears (for non residents) in a no baiting zone west of sundre. I'm sure he'll keep his tags.

He is not classed in my books as an outfitter or hunter. He is a POACHER. It's criminal and POACHERS need their privilege's taken away.

I think there is a place for Honest hard working Outfitters, because lets be honest, there are some good guys out there trying to make a living, but I do agree that the quota numbers need to be scrutinized, changed and open for all to see, and then and only then can we all be happy.

If we had full and complete disclosure in this Province, doesn't matter what it is, there would be less challenges for everyone. People need to be held accountable and that's where it starts. The system has to work for everyone.

This is my last take on this subject. Thanks for the Thread Chuck. Very interesting views.
Best of luck hunting this year.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For whatever good it will do, I just sent another letter to our minister, expressing my concerns on the matter. Perhaps if enough people sent letters to the minister, instead of complaining here, the minister might actually look into our concerns?

I know many loudmouths on this forum badmouth 260Rem and I for openly emitting we voted NDP, but this is one of the reasons. New MLAs, and ministers, are not tainted by the corrupt policies of the past, and the "way things have always been done."

Hopefully a new set of eyes at the top brings a closer look at the absolutely corrupt practices resident outdoorsmen have had to stomach.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sns2

I know many loudmouths on this forum badmouth 260Rem and I for openly emitting we voted NDP, but this is one of the reasons. New MLAs, and ministers, are not tainted by the corrupt policies of the past, and the "way things have always been done."

Hopefully a new set of eyes at the top brings a closer look at the absolutely corrupt practices resident outdoorsmen have had to stomach.

While I agree a fresh look is probably a good thing...this thread is the absolute last reason you voted NDP
signed
Loud Mouth???????

[diamonddave]

Sns2....
lol now you did it, you took a perfectly good thread and filled that train with tannerite and kicked it off the tracks

Hopefully you can wake up from whatever nightmare you are having, and start your day properly!

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

I don't have much to say on this because I don't fully understand the situation but I will say that the outfitter that toque diesel was referencing to brings a fair bit of revenue to our community.

I have said nothing about the outfitters, guides, or their business here. But lets also be a little more realistic about local economy.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by diamonddave

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what Chuck is trying to do? To get answers from the top?

Ya, that's what Cucks doing. I'm just pointing out to others where they should focus their anger.

[elkhunter11]

It's just bad apples and bent noses.

For the most part, outfitters and guides are law abiding citizens making a living. When one messes up the news spreads like wildfire through the community.

In all honesty I've never encountered a problem with a guide or outfitter in my life, I have had a few bad encounters with other hunters, but very few over the last 29yrs of having an Alberta hunting license.

It's not the outfitters in the wrong here where does the corruption start? At the top. Who is at the top? It's the government, and that's who should be held accountable.

If only it was that simple. Unfortunately when an outfitter chooses to violate our laws, APOS does absolutely nothing to hold that outfitter accountable for his actions. That outfitter is given a fine by our courts, and then he is allowed to keep all of his allocations, and keep right on outfitting , with no suspension. We actually have an association who allows convicted poachers and convicted criminals as members, consulting with ESRD to decide allocation numbers and seasons. Does it make any sense to give an association with convicted poachers as members , having any say in wildlife management? And don't try to tell us that it isn't the outfitters fault , that they allow convicted poachers, and convicted criminals to be members of their association, and to even hold positions on their board of directors.

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Ya, that's what Chucks doing. I'm just pointing out to others where they should focus their anger.

Gotcha, ya I'm not sure exactly why people aren't picking that part up. Chuck was never bashing the outfitters, this entire thread was about who to talk to, that was in a position of power, at the gov't level.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It's just bad apples and bent noses.

For the most part, outfitters and guides are law abiding citizens making a living. When one messes up the news spreads like wildfire through the community.
Like I said before without knowing how many outfitters have actually been charged, we have no idea how deep the corruption of this organization is.

In all honesty I've never encountered a problem with a guide or outfitter in my life, I have had a few bad encounters with other hunters, but very few over the last 29yrs of having an Alberta hunting license.

It's not the outfitters in the wrong here where does the corruption start? At the top. Who is at the top? It's the government, and that's who should be held accountable.
Don't quite understand your statement here as outfitters are being convicted, for this the fault is 100% theirs. When you have an outfitter with convictions going back to 1983 and more throughout the years, that is a pattern, and logic would suggest he has many more infractions he was just not caught at. This would probably be the case for any outfitter with multiple convictions.

If you think there's a problem, look into the policies set out by the government. Find out what basis they used to make the decisions you take issue with, find out the actual numbers they collect and then see if it all adds up. Hopefully that's where the problem is, because if it's with their policy itself, it'll take a lot more work to try and change things.

But this is the exact time to expose exactly what has gone on in the past, the government that allowed this to happen is gone. It appears that hunters and some Alberta clubs are sending the same message to the new government, APOS has some serious problems and they must be addressed. Anything but a total removal of the present directors will result in little or no change. The past government chose to ignore the problem, stating APOS is responsible for disciplining its members. If there was ever a case of the "fox tending the hen house" this is it.

APOS and its members are not the poor innocent victim in this, their failure to discipline their "bad apples" is a big part of the problem, and the "good apples" share some of this blame for not demanding that the APOS directors expose and expel those outfitters that are being convicted of crimes. APOS have proven they will not do anything that may tarnish APOS or its members, they are far beyond any kind of expectation that they will change anything.

Just to be clear I am not suggesting that "outfitting" being eliminated, but their governing body APOS.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by hal53

While I agree a fresh look is probably a good thing...this thread is the absolute last reason you voted NDP

It is exactly why I voted the way I did. A fresh set of eyes is needed in EVERY area of gov't after 44 yrs. But like always, you know my intentions better than I.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by chuck

I have said nothing about the outfitters, guides, or their business here. But lets also be a little more realistic about local economy.

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.
I think unrealistic is thinking that a dozen tags out of the whole wmu's is ruining your child's hunting experience. I would suggest maybe exercise a little self control and shoot mature deer instead of little dinks and maintain some breeding stock in the population.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.
I think unrealistic is thinking that a dozen tags out of the whole wmu's is ruining your child's hunting experience. I would suggest maybe exercise a little self control and shoot mature deer instead of little dinks and maintain some breeding stock in the population.

It's about the wait times and tag numbers not trophy quality. But I'll remember your advice about shooting little dinks.

I'll show you what I mean by realistic by using this example. Let's say an American comes up here to hunt. To show off he buys 30k worth of booze at the local outlet. It is unrealistic to expect that every American coming to Alberta to hunt will do the same thing.

I hope that helps.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bobalong

But this is the exact time to expose exactly what has gone on in the past, the government that allowed this to happen is gone. It appears that hunters and some Alberta clubs are sending the same message to the new government, APOS has some serious problems and they must be addressed. Anything but a total removal of the present directors will result in little or no change. The past government chose to ignore the problem, stating APOS is responsible for disciplining its members. If there was ever a case of the "fox tending the hen house" this is it.

APOS and its members are not the poor innocent victim in this, their failure to discipline their "bad apples" is a big part of the problem, and the "good apples" share some of this blame for not demanding that the APOS directors expose and expel those outfitters that are being convicted of crimes. APOS have proven they will not do anything that may tarnish APOS or its members, they are far beyond any kind of expectation that they will change anything.

Just to be clear I am not suggesting that "outfitting" being eliminated, but their governing body APOS.

Exactly, it's not as if people are accusing every outfitter of being corrupt or crooked, but when you allow convicted poachers and convicted criminals to be members of the organization that represents you, and you even elect them to executive positions within that organization, whose fault is it that the organization loses the trust and respect of the public? If you want to be trusted and respected, you need to start by voting in a new executive, and getting rid of the convicted poachers and criminals.

I'll show you what I mean by realistic by using this example. Let's say an American comes up here to hunt. To show off he buys 30k worth of booze at the local outlet. It is unrealistic to expect that every American coming to Alberta to hunt wi do the same thing.

For every non resident that spends 30k locally, there are likely a dozen that spend almost nothing in the local community. When I travel several hours to hunt in another part of Alberta, I spend as much or more money in the hunting area than most non residents do, in the form of hotel rooms, restaurants, fuel, groceries, and shopping at other local businesses.

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by chuck

You ought to put them somewhere else. Or that explains a lot.

Finally got it hey?

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.
I think unrealistic is thinking that a dozen tags out of the whole wmu's is ruining your child's hunting experience. I would suggest maybe exercise a little self control and shoot mature deer instead of little dinks and maintain some breeding stock in the population.

When residents have to wait 6-7 years to get drawn for bull moose in a particular zone, while a dozen (or more) allocations are given out every year, year after year then that has potential to ruin my children's hunting experience.
Yes, yes it does.
Btw, talk of breeding stock.. It's generally the mature Bulls that can go on and on and on. Breeding many cows, compared to the young ones.
Now what?

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.

$30,000 on booze in a couple months, that's $500 a day on booze, no wonder he couldn't hunt! He must be drinking some pretty rare and expensive stuff or he is supplying half the neighborhood.

Even if he did spend that much money it's a drop in the bucket, it doesn't provide enough money to supply one person with more than a few months worth of work.

I've always thought that the outfitting business is peanuts. If you closed all non resident hunting and guiding there would be a few complainers because they can't outfit and guide anymore but in reality it is such a small industry it would make no more financial difference to a community than if the local corner store closed. They close all the time and nobody gives a darn and the media ignores it. Now if the independent corner store industry had a lobby group like the outfitting business does that in effect gets to sit in and influence government policy decisions, in effect manipulating the government to allow them to be the only corner store in an area and guarantee them a quota of sales. The public would be up in arms against something like this. Far as I'm concerned the outfitting business is nothing but a parasite special interest group that is manipulating the gov't to give them public assets to line their pockets with and giving nearly nothing in return.

[Brock1]

For every non resident that spends 30k locally, there are likely a dozen that spend almost nothing in the local community. When I travel several hours to hunt in another part of Alberta, I spend as much or more money in the hunting area than most non residents do, in the form of hotel rooms, restaurants, fuel, groceries, and shopping at other local businesses.[/QUOTE]


huh?

you think they bring their own food and gas? and stay in their trucks?
dude, seriously? How would you know how much a non resident spends in a community compared to you?
God I hate speculation.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Far as I'm concerned the outfitting business is nothing but a parasite special interest group that is manipulating the gov't to give them public assets to line their pockets with and giving nearly nothing in return.

Sounds like our MLA's and MP's and Financial Institutions and oil Companies and Insurance Companies and, and, and.....Oh and did I mention the Redford and all the MLA's that took $$$$$ voted out of office package and living the dream.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

$30,000 on booze in a couple months, that's $500 a day on booze, no wonder he couldn't hunt! He must be drinking some pretty rare and expensive stuff or he is supplying half the neighborhood.

Even if he did spend that much money it's a drop in the bucket, it doesn't provide enough money to supply one person with more than a few months worth of work.

I've always thought that the outfitting business is peanuts. If you closed all non resident hunting and guiding there would be a few complainers because they can't outfit and guide anymore but in reality it is such a small industry it would make no more financial difference to a community than if the local corner store closed. They close all the time and nobody gives a darn and the media ignores it. Now if the independent corner store industry had a lobby group like the outfitting business does that in effect gets to sit in and influence government policy decisions, in effect manipulating the government to allow them to be the only corner store in an area and guarantee them a quota of sales. The public would be up in arms against something like this. Far as I'm concerned the outfitting business is nothing but a parasite special interest group that is manipulating the gov't to give them public assets to line their pockets with and giving nearly nothing in return.

Well i don't know for sure but i think that he'd be up here for 4 -5 months.Conrad been coming here for as long as I can remember but he died in the last couple of years. $30000 probably pays for the lady at liquor stores wages.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly, it's not as if people are accusing every outfitter of being corrupt or crooked, but when you allow convicted poachers and convicted criminals to be members of the organization that represents you, and you even elect them to executive positions within that organization, whose fault is it that the organization loses the trust and respect of the public? If you want to be trusted and respected, you need to start by voting in a new executive, and getting rid of the convicted poachers and criminals.



For every non resident that spends 30k locally, there are likely a dozen that spend almost nothing in the local community. When I travel several hours to hunt in another part of Alberta, I spend as much or more money in the hunting area than most non residents do, in the form of hotel rooms, restaurants, fuel, groceries, and shopping at other local businesses.

So you traveling Alberta on hunting excursions directly employs how many people? Just like a thought, a big fat zero.

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by Brock1

For every non resident that spends 30k locally, there are likely a dozen that spend almost nothing in the local community. When I travel several hours to hunt in another part of Alberta, I spend as much or more money in the hunting area than most non residents do, in the form of hotel rooms, restaurants, fuel, groceries, and shopping at other local businesses.

huh?

you think they bring their own food and gas? and stay in their trucks?
dude, seriously? How would you know how much a non resident spends in a community compared to you?
God I hate speculation.[/QUOTE]

You seem to have quite a burr in your backside about this subject Brock, but all you seem to be doing is arguing aimlessly. Have you got a dog in this fight?
Have you got an opinion on this subject? Spit it out instead of just nit picking posts apart. What do you actually think about the topic?

[albertadeer]

Guiding and outfitting built this province. If you don't like it. Leave....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Brock1

For every non resident that spends 30k locally, there are likely a dozen that spend almost nothing in the local community. When I travel several hours to hunt in another part of Alberta, I spend as much or more money in the hunting area than most non residents do, in the form of hotel rooms, restaurants, fuel, groceries, and shopping at other local businesses.


huh?

you think they bring their own food and gas? and stay in their trucks?
dude, seriously? How would you know how much a non resident spends in a community compared to you?
God I hate speculation.

While pronghorn hunting, I stayed in the same motel in Brooks as some American hunters, I ate at some of the same restaurants, and I purchased fuel at some of the same locations, so yes I did spend as much in the local businesses that those American hunters did. When I hunt out West for elk, or in Camp Wainwright, I stay in motels, I buy fuel locally, and I eat and shop locally, so I do support the local economies. As for the more remote camps run by outfitters that I know, they purchase their tents, camping supplies, groceries and gear in the big cities, far from the hunting area, and the non residents hunting with them eat their groceries , and stay in their tents, and transportation is by horseback, fed with feed that they brought from far away from the hunting area. In other words, the non residents hunting in these remote camps contribute virtually nothing to the local economy of the area in which they hunt.

Alberta residents spend the bulk of our money in Alberta, and we pay our various taxes to our Canadian and Alberta governments, taxes which build our roads , hospitals , and schools in our communities. So who really contributes more to Alberta, and to our communities, tax paying Alberta residents, or the non resident hunter that comes to Alberta for a week or so out of a year?

[diamonddave]

Albertadeer

That just made me laugh so hard I put coffee threw my nose!!

That's the worst case of "I'm taking my ball and going home" I have seen in a long time!!

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.
I think unrealistic is thinking that a dozen tags out of the whole wmu's is ruining your child's hunting experience. I would suggest maybe exercise a little self control and shoot mature deer instead of little dinks and maintain some breeding stock in the population.

I don't think there's $30000 of liquor in the local stores. Lets face it the outfitter we're talking about buys his grocieries and booze at costco or save on food and i know he buys his atv's in GP. He might buy gas at the local gas station but that's about it. Sorry to go off topic here.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What not realistic? One guy spent $30000 at the liquor store. He'd come up for a couple months a year and bring his kids. He didn't really care to shoot anything and was just happy to be here.
I think unrealistic is thinking that a dozen tags out of the whole wmu's is ruining your child's hunting experience. I would suggest maybe exercise a little self control and shoot mature deer instead of little dinks and maintain some breeding stock in the population.

It appears to me you are describing a tourist, as lots of them come to do the same thing, the only thing different is this one happens to come in hunting season.

Spending 30k on booze and not really caring if he shoots anything I don't believe is a true representation of the non-residents who actually come here to hunt.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Sounds like our MLA's and MP's and Financial Institutions and oil Companies and Insurance Companies and, and, and.....Oh and did I mention the Redford and all the MLA's that took $$$$$ voted out of office package and living the dream.

Sure but they provide hundreds of thousands of jobs and make this province wealthy. Outfitting takes a resource that generates so little wealth to the province those tags may as well as well be all given out to residents a perk for being Albertan

[nube]

This topic again lol Outfitters are here to stay so get used to it. Heard the complaint years ago that there were too many bird outfitters and it got pushed to only have 4 outfitters per zone. Still hear the same old complaints as before. Point is there will be complaining (usually by the same people) no matter how many tags or how many outfitters there are or whatever they want to complain about. The main problem in this province is that there has been a major amount of new people move into the province or visit the province that have decided to hunt. It doesn't take much to change a draw that used to be 3 year wait to a 5 year wait. If you want to hunt Mule deer then wait your turn and if you can't then get a side job and go hunt them in the U.S.A. Basically what I am doing next year for my speed goat. Thank goodness they let Canadians come and kill speed goats in New Mexico

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by nube

This topic again lol Outfitters are here to stay so get used to it. Heard the complaint years ago that there were too many bird outfitters and it got pushed to only have 4 outfitters per zone. Still hear the same old complaints as before. Point is there will be complaining (usually by the same people) no matter how many tags or how many outfitters there are or whatever they want to complain about. The main problem in this province is that there has been a major amount of new people move into the province or visit the province that have decided to hunt. It doesn't take much to change a draw that used to be 3 year wait to a 5 year wait. If you want to hunt Mule deer then wait your turn and if you can't then get a side job and go hunt them in the U.S.A. Basically what I am doing next year for my speed goat. Thank goodness they let Canadians come and kill speed goats in New Mexico

Can you please explain why I shouldn't complain about the numbers I posted.

[dmcbride]

I don't think many here have a problem with outfitters in general. I know, I hope to use there service one day somewhere else. The problems come from the zones like Chuck describes and APOS allowing convicted poachers to still guide.