Albertal Wolf Management

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Should I assume most of your comments have more to do with who you are replying too then what the topic is SH?

I have no idea who priomsprostaff is nor have I ever responded to him/her that I know of.

So no, don't assume that....

Animals don't kill for fun.......

[fish-man]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think there are a few wolves that kill for fun but as far as knowing numbers thats a pretty tough guess. You say 2 for every 2 eaten? How do we know why they arent eaten? Maybe they get spooked, maybe it was for pleasure, maybe they are just opertunistic and if the oppertunity is there they take it and then arent hungry enough to eat it. Personaly most wolf kills I see in a year in the areas I travel are cleaned up. When I hunted cats lots with a buddy I saw more waste due to cats in the winter. And many cat kills were cleaned up by wolves.
To say 50% of wolf kills are sport to me is reaching a little high.
4 killed elk per wolf per month ? So your saing the pack(20 wolves) that brown bear posted eats 80 elk a month? roughly 960 a year? no wonder there are no elk in our mountains!
JMPO
SG

I remember reading somewhere that a lion- several hundred pounds- kills 20-30 large animals per year. I find it hard to believe that a 100-150 pound wolf would kill 208 elk-sized animals each year.

I also doubt that wolves are, generally speaking, sucessful enough to kill and not eat a bunch of deer and elk just for "fun". Deer, elk and moose run fast and fight back. Again, domestic cattle are probably a different story... lots of predators go nuts when surrounded by domestic animals, their insticts seem to kick into overdrive because the food is so easy to catch.

[albertadeer]

shoot them while the numbers are up. Its all a big cycle, nature takes care of the high numbers with time. Yes moose will suffer but when moose numbers are high ticks are a major problem..no one likes a ticky moose.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That hardly equates to killing for "fun" though does it?

That and I highly doubt that a pack of wolves could kill more than one or two deer in one "spree". I'm pretty sure the deer would run away.

Not in the literal sense of the word, anymore than we as hunters kill for "fun".

Careful reading is always important. Yarded deer don't have that option, do they.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Not in the literal sense of the word, anymore than we as hunters kill for "fun".

Careful reading is always important. Yarded deer don't have that option, do they.

Again your logic defies me Vin. Why wouldn't yarded deer have the option to flee? And truthfully, I've never seen a pack leave a kill to make another even when many other animals were present. I've never seen an obese wolf either for that matter. Most of the ones I've killed have been very lean and some almost emaciated. I doubt "fun" was in their "thoughts" when a kill was made. Humans love to anthropomorphize animals and I guess it harkens back to the days of Disney. It's sad that some people stiill buy into it though. Anti-hunting groups thrive on the anthropormorphizing of animals.

You'll notice I never said hunters kill for fun....but some humans do. We are the only species that does.

[Vindalbakken]

Sorry SH. Wolves do not kill for fun. But they can and do kill more than they can eat when given the opportunity to do so. That is the only logic I presented.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Sorry SH. Wolves do not kill for fun. But they can and do kill more than they can eat when given the opportunity to do so. That is the only logic I presented.

I may happen occasionally but I'll guarantee it doesn't happen at a 50/50 ratio and I'll guarantee it's not for "fun". That's the logic I presented. Wolves are efficient predators and they are efficient eaters. I'd say very little goes to waste....most times nothing.

This finding from the East Slopes cougar study is interesting

Wolf and Cougar Predation Efficiency



"Cougars may be more efficient predators than wolves. Kill rates for wolves have been reported between 5.3 and 6.9 kilograms of ungulate/wolf/day in a number of different ecosystems with varying prey species and prey densities (Carbyn 1983, Thurber and Peterson 1993, Ballard et al. 1997, Hebblewhite et al. 2003). Although kill rates are rarely reported in kg/day for cougars, Murphy (1998) found that, on average, cougars killed 12.2kg of ungulate/cougar/day, roughly double that of wolves. This ratio is roughly consistent with per-animal comparisons. The typical kg/wolf/day figures translate into approximately one large mammal per wolf every 19 days, while mature cougars have been estimated to kill an average of one large ungulate every 7-14 days (Hornocker 1970, Nowak 1999, Also get Beier et al. 1995 and Ackerman et al. 1986, Murphy 1998, Anderson and Lindzey 2003). Thus, unless wolves are much more numerous than cougars in a particular region, it is reasonable to hypothesize that cougars are likely to have a greater total effect on ungulate populations. Estimating wolf and cougar kill rates in the same study area, as we will do, can test this hypothesis while controlling for the effects of prey availability."

[Vindalbakken]

You are a real risk taker with those guarantees aren't you

[walking buffalo]

The joy of science.

from http://www.fsfga.org/pdf/NordeggWolfReport.pdf

Prey Composition and Selection: We used snowtracking, observations during aerial telemetry flights, and visits to location clusters of GPS-collared wolves (Webb 2009: Chapter 3) to locate a total of 192 wolf-killed ungulates from 11 different wolf packs in 2003-2006, with 17.5 ± 10.8 (range: 8-38) kills located per pack. Of these kills, 53% were deer, 17% elk, 24% moose, and 7% were feral horses. When converted to relative biomass, deer represented 22%, elk 23%, moose 43%, and feral horses 12% of the total prey biomass killed by wolves. Based on pellet group counts along transects across the study area (n = 372, Webb 2009: Chapter 4), individual packs differed substantially in the relative amounts of each prey species available within their home ranges; however, moose were the dominant prey species, in terms of biomass, available to most packs. Extensive variation existed among packs in terms of both prey composition and prey selection, with some packs exhibiting positive selection for deer, elk, and feral horses. In contrast, no packs selected positively for moose. Because of this high variation in prey composition across packs, wolf prey selection could not be generalized.

Wolf Kill Rates: We estimated kill rates for 6 packs during winter 2006 (December 2005-March 2006) by visiting a random selection of location clusters from GPS-collared wolves (Webb 2009: Chapter 3). Clusters were identified using 1-hour interval GPS location data, with 89 ± 38 (range 36-145) clusters visited/pack. These clusters corresponded to 58 ± 27 (range 22-82) sampling days/pack, with 74 ± 17% (range 54-100%) of the total identified clusters for each pack visited in the field to search for prey remains. Total kill rates averaged 0.34 ± 0.06 kills/pack/day (Webb 2009: Table AIV.1). On average, kill rates were 0.24 ± 0.09 deer/pack/day, 0.06 ± 0.10 elk/pack/day, 0.03 ± 0.04 moose/pack/day, and 0.01 ± 0.02 feral horses/pack/day. In total, this resulted in an estimated average of 7.95 ± 3.94 kg of prey killed/wolf/day (Webb 2009: Table AIV.1). Assuming 75% of prey carcasses were edible and no loss to scavengers (Peterson 1977, Hebblewhite et al. 2004), wolves consumed 5.96 ± 3.24 kg of prey/wolf/day.

Avgerage 8 wolves/ pack = 1kill/24 days/wolf= 15kills/year/wolf

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

You are a real risk taker with those guarantees aren't you

Not in the slightest...

[sheepguide]

Cougars are alot stealthier and hunt alone making them a killing machine but I dont beleive they kill more than what they need either.
Of coarse cougars kill more than wolves. During cold weather they kill alot more as they have a very tough time consuming frozen meat. They are unable to naw as a wolf does due to their short jaw.

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The joy of science.

from http://www.fsfga.org/pdf/NordeggWolfReport.pdf

Prey Composition and Selection: We used snowtracking, observations during aerial telemetry flights, and visits to location clusters of GPS-collared wolves (Webb 2009: Chapter 3) to locate a total of 192 wolf-killed ungulates from 11 different wolf packs in 2003-2006, with 17.5 ± 10.8 (range: 8-38) kills located per pack. Of these kills, 53% were deer, 17% elk, 24% moose, and 7% were feral horses. When converted to relative biomass, deer represented 22%, elk 23%, moose 43%, and feral horses 12% of the total prey biomass killed by wolves. Based on pellet group counts along transects across the study area (n = 372, Webb 2009: Chapter 4), individual packs differed substantially in the relative amounts of each prey species available within their home ranges; however, moose were the dominant prey species, in terms of biomass, available to most packs. Extensive variation existed among packs in terms of both prey composition and prey selection, with some packs exhibiting positive selection for deer, elk, and feral horses. In contrast, no packs selected positively for moose. Because of this high variation in prey composition across packs, wolf prey selection could not be generalized.

Wolf Kill Rates: We estimated kill rates for 6 packs during winter 2006 (December 2005-March 2006) by visiting a random selection of location clusters from GPS-collared wolves (Webb 2009: Chapter 3). Clusters were identified using 1-hour interval GPS location data, with 89 ± 38 (range 36-145) clusters visited/pack. These clusters corresponded to 58 ± 27 (range 22-82) sampling days/pack, with 74 ± 17% (range 54-100%) of the total identified clusters for each pack visited in the field to search for prey remains. Total kill rates averaged 0.34 ± 0.06 kills/pack/day (Webb 2009: Table AIV.1). On average, kill rates were 0.24 ± 0.09 deer/pack/day, 0.06 ± 0.10 elk/pack/day, 0.03 ± 0.04 moose/pack/day, and 0.01 ± 0.02 feral horses/pack/day. In total, this resulted in an estimated average of 7.95 ± 3.94 kg of prey killed/wolf/day (Webb 2009: Table AIV.1). Assuming 75% of prey carcasses were edible and no loss to scavengers (Peterson 1977, Hebblewhite et al. 2004), wolves consumed 5.96 ± 3.24 kg of prey/wolf/day.

Avgerage 8 wolves/ pack = 1kill/24 days/wolf= 15kills/year/wolf

WB You beat me to it. I also noticed that pack density and wolf numbers went down the closer you got to the mountains.

[walking buffalo]

Wolves attacking and killing people in Russia. I am hearing of plenty of close calls for people in Alberta. Share your stories.

Hope this doesn't happen here with the increasing number of wolves, coyotes, and grizzly bears.

http://westinstenv.org/wibio/2010/02...ves-to-humans/

[fish-man]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wolves attacking and killing people in Russia. I am hearing of plenty of close calls for people in Alberta. Share your stories.

Hope this doesn't happen here with the increasing number of wolves, coyotes, and grizzly bears.

http://westinstenv.org/wibio/2010/02...ves-to-humans/

A wolf circled me a few times when I was on the side of a mountain by myself (unarmed). It was kind of scary, but not really a close call since it made no agressive moves. I think it was curious and once the curiosity wa satisfied, it left.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I am hearing of plenty of close calls for people in Alberta.

Alot of people associate a wild animal that is encountered in close proximity as a close call when it really is just an encounter and has no threat or danger.
There are many close calls but alot of guys jump to the conclusion that the animal was close so it was agressive or stalking them, this is not always the case.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Alot of people associate a wild animal that is encountered in close proximity as a close call when it really is just an encounter and has no threat or danger.
.

I totally agree. For people that don't spend a lot of time around these animals it can be very scary to be in close proximity to one but the actual threat is minimal. Wolf/human conflict is virtually non-existent in North America and I can't see it increasing any time soon. Most of the so-called documented cases are nothing more than a close encounter. The same with bears, cougars and bigfoot.

[Vindalbakken]

You are kind of playing fast and loose with the facts there aren't you SH? Cougar attacks on humans are documented, deadly and becoming more frequent. Bear attacks have always occured and are frequently deadly. Wolf attacks on humans are virtually non-existant but there are a few cases of record. What is of record is the increasing interaction of wolves in the lower 48 with domestic pets in close proximity to people. It is being demonstrated the the aloof and elusive wolf will acclimate to humans and we already know what familiarity has led to with bears and cougars.

As to bigfoot??? What? Intelligent debate would not relegate dangerous encounters with wild animals to the realm of mythology.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

You are kind of playing fast and loose with the facts there aren't you SH? Cougar attacks on humans are documented, deadly and becoming more frequent. Bear attacks have always occured and are frequently deadly. Wolf attacks on humans are virtually non-existant but there are a few cases of record. What is of record is the increasing interaction of wolves in the lower 48 with domestic pets in close proximity to people. It is being demonstrated the the aloof and elusive wolf will acclimate to humans and we already know what familiarity has led to with bears and cougars.

As to bigfoot??? What? Intelligent debate would not relegate dangerous encounters with wild animals to the realm of mythology.

Vin you really need to slow down and actually read what I post...not comment on what you wish that I'd posted. No where did I indicate that cougar and bear attacks did not happen....I just stated that most encounters were nothing more than encounters......that is a fact. The number of encounters that escalate to attacks are miniscule so come on Vin, rather than trying to put words in my mouth, let's stick to what I actually post...k? Those tactics do seem quite beneath you.

As for the bigfoot comment, I thought you might recognize a little humour when you read it....apparently not...sheesh!

[Vindalbakken]

I did read exactly what you posted. Perhaps you need to slow down and think about what you are posting.

[thunderjet]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wolves attacking and killing people in Russia. I am hearing of plenty of close calls for people in Alberta. Share your stories.

Hope this doesn't happen here with the increasing number of wolves, coyotes, and grizzly bears.

http://westinstenv.org/wibio/2010/02...ves-to-humans/

What close calls...people seeing a wolf, ya it followed me, it was staring at me with that death look n its eyes....come on, lets not glamorize stories and myths of " close calls in Alberta". I guess if wolves, bear, cougars scare people that much stay out of the bush!!!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

You are kind of playing fast and loose with the facts there aren't you SH? Cougar attacks on humans are documented, deadly and becoming more frequent. Bear attacks have always occured and are frequently deadly. Wolf attacks on humans are virtually non-existant but there are a few cases of record. What is of record is the increasing interaction of wolves in the lower 48 with domestic pets in close proximity to people. It is being demonstrated the the aloof and elusive wolf will acclimate to humans and we already know what familiarity has led to with bears and cougars.

As to bigfoot??? What? Intelligent debate would not relegate dangerous encounters with wild animals to the realm of mythology.

I will post later some compiled records of north american wolf attacks on people. It will surprise those that think it doesn't happen here, and the number of incidents are on the rise.

Thunderjet, There is no 'glamour' in the truth, no make-up needed. Becoming informed on the risks of being outdoors is part of making it enjoyable. Do you think being "Bear Smart" is for wimps?

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Becoming informed on the risks of being outdoors is part of making it enjoyable. Do you think being "Bear Smart" is for wimps?

No more than Driver's Education. It's far more dangerous on our roads and highways than the danger we face from predators but people are always going to fear the unkown and it's an easy fear to prey upon. Sure being smart in the woods is a great idea but propogating that fear as part of arguement for killing predators is a stretch. Black bears are by far the most common toothy predator in Alberta and in the 13 years from 1990-2002, there were 8 human deaths attributed to black bears in Alberta. It's hardly cause for mass erradication. Considering wolf attacks are a fraction of that number, I'm not sure that arguing for wolf control on the basis of human safety really holds any water. It's great for fear mongering but we engage in far more dangerous activities every day as part of our daily routines. There are plenty of arguements for wolf control but I just can't buy into human safety as one of them.

[thunderjet]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I will post later some compiled records of north american wolf attacks on people. It will surprise those that think it doesn't happen here, and the number of incidents are on the rise.

Thunderjet, There is no 'glamour' in the truth, no make-up needed. Becoming informed on the risks of being outdoors is part of making it enjoyable. Do you think being "Bear Smart" is for wimps?

I would be very interested to see the compiled records, I sure hope these records have precise description of accounts, and what is considered an incident. A dog killing is not an incident, has happened for years and years. Do I think that being bear smart is for whimps.....no. There are several bear incidents in Alberta, however how many can be attributed to camp ground attacks where food and garbage have influenced the animal to less wary of humans, or park bears that are approached by tourists armed with camera's. I think this is where bear awareness is invaluable. I have taken bear awareness courses because of the type of work I do in remote areas were bear encounters are normal life. I know the stats. So what is wolf awareness? I have had many encounters with them unarmed and I can tell you this, I am way less worried about that then walking down a side walk where Joe blow has his Rotweiller on a leash coming at me!! But I see no one up in arms about that!!! Pull those compiled stats

[walking buffalo]

I'm jumping from tanning an elk hide, watching the hockey game, GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and wanting to talk some more about wolves.

SH, NEVER have I or will I (never supposed to say never)suggest or support wolf eradication. From reading my posts, you know that.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by thunderjet

I would be very interested to see the compiled records, I sure hope these records have precise description of accounts, and what is considered an incident. Pull those compiled stats

X2 id like to see also!

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

SH, NEVER have I or will I (never supposed to say never)suggest or support wolf eradication. From reading my posts, you know that.

I never meant to imply that you were but I don't think that human/wolf encounters is even an arguement for control. There are far more relevant arguements for that.

GO CANADA!!!!!!!!!!

[walking buffalo]

Some info. I found regarding wolves.

Mark Boyce, June 2008
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009...-mark-s-boyce/

http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/De...rk_S_Boyce.pdf

“In Alberta, for example, the provincial government estimates a current population of 7,000 wolves. Wolf harvest is by hunting and legal trapping on registered traplines where 400-800 wolves are removed each year, or about 10% of the population. This low harvest rate occurs even though there is no bag limit during the harvest season on the number of wolves that may be killed by hunters or trappers. Although the number of wolves killed by hunters and trappers is unregulated, this harvest does not limit the population of wolves.”

This is the first provincial population estimate for Alberta that I have found. 7,000 wolves in 2008.
Giving a conservative population growth of 24%, an accepted estimate, we now have a minimum of 11,000 wolves in Alberta, 2010, and the numbers are growing. 11,000 wolves @ 15 kills/year/wolf = 165,000 ungulates will be killed in 2010 by wolves.

This paper, which I posted recently, gives evidence that Pre-Columbian people in North America did not live with wolves, they were competitors for resources and life. Like wolves, Indians were an effective apex species.

http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Le...-withcover.pdf

Links to wolf attacks on people.

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/...chb13_full.pdf

http://pinedaleonline.com/wolf/wolvesandhumans.htm

http://wolfcrossing.org/2007/11/24/a...lled-canadian/

http://www.mtechservices.ca/Kenton/i...pic,110.0.html

Think those wolves following you were just curious? I’ll say stage f).
“Human-habituated wolves are those which have lost their fear of humans. It is a common phenomenon, in this country and in Europe and Asia. As reported in Wolves in Russia: Anxiety Through the Ages by Will N. Graves [here], wolf behavior follows a general habituation-exploration model. The progressive circumstances are:
(a) Severe depletion of natural prey.
(b) Followed by wolves searching for alternative food sources among human habitations.
(c) The brazen behavior of wolves increases due to the wolves being undeterred by and habituated to inefficiently armed humans (or ineffectual use of weapons or outright protection of wolves).
(d) Wolves shift to preying on pets and livestock, especially on dogs.
(e) Wolves stalk and kill livestock.
(f) Wolves commence deliberate, drawn-out exploration of humans on foot or on horseback.
(g) Followed by wolves confronting humans.
(h) Wolves attack humans.”

Some articles from Valerius Giest.
http://www.mtechservices.ca/Kenton/i...pic,110.0.html
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/200...ance-is-bliss/
Important to read this one.
http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Ge...-to-humans.pdf
This is a must read for those interested in hunting. IMO. The evolution of humans as a ‘hunter’, not a predator.
http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Ge...RS_2008%20.doc

[Rantastic]

nice post with alot of good info, im reading it all right now and am pretty impressed by what you found.

[savagencounter]

i helped out got my first one this year not a big one but still pretty exicited cant wait till i get my shoulder mount back this summer. ill try and get another one to put beside it above my t.v