60 pages guaranteed

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Gust

There were armed people there who could not define who and where the shots were coming from and stood down.

I hadn't heard that. Got a link? It was my understanding the only guns belonged to the killer kid. http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20..._opinion_.html


There were members of the military in the theater, and possibly more people with training. There were, however, no guns, even though Colorado is a concealed-carry state because the Century theater where this took place was a "gun-free zone."

Again, though -- the theater was a gun-free zone. "That's where the chickens go," said Block. "They go to where people are unarmed." The shooter made a series of smart tactical decisions that minimized the risk of anyone stopping him.

[wags]

Originally Posted by expmler

Were the people in the Aurora theatre under any less threat than your wife in your home.

Are you saying once you leave your house you lose the right to defend your life.

It would seem to me that Aurora is where the theory of "more guns = more death" is truly exemplified. The guns used were all obtained legally.

Now I know, a response along the lines of 'criminals don't follow laws, he can get the guns anyway' and so on.

But, if the access to guns weren't so easily available, perhaps he wouldn't have had the opportunities to get those guns.

Cheers

[brownbomber]

So I was looking for data on deaths per capita from gun related deaths to get something other than opinion and the one thing that struck me is that in poorer countries murder is leading cause by firearms and in richer it's suicide.

[Gust]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I hadn't heard that. Got a link? It was my understanding the only guns belonged to the killer kid. http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20..._opinion_.html


There were members of the military in the theater, and possibly more people with training. There were, however, no guns, even though Colorado is a concealed-carry state because the Century theater where this took place was a "gun-free zone."

Again, though -- the theater was a gun-free zone. "That's where the chickens go," said Block. "They go to where people are unarmed." The shooter made a series of smart tactical decisions that minimized the risk of anyone stopping him.

There was an interview with a fellow around that time on possibly PBS Newshour (which is the most neutral news on mainstream TV). I could go and find it but it might take a bit, but it will also give me a good reason not to eat something (see other thread).

[Gust]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

So I was looking for data on deaths per capita from gun related deaths to get something other than opinion and the one thing that struck me is that in poorer countries murder is leading cause by firearms and in richer it's suicide.

Majority of the gun deaths in the States in 94 (<?) were kids under the age of 13 who were playing with poorly stored firearms.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Gust

Majority of the gun deaths in the States in 94 (<?) were kids under the age of 13 who were playing with poorly stored firearms.

Again....Where's the link? No offence Gust, but without any proof these "facts" just don't make sense.

PBS is not neutral. Hugely left wing.


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention claimed that, on average, one child died every three days in accidental incidents in the U.S. from 2000 to 2005 = 122ish per year, out of 30,000ish gun deaths = Not a majority.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I find it a push of the imagination a 21 yr army guy would pry on a primer . Now if were talkn navy yeh I can understand

I have two other witnesses. How about my son having to insist he not shoot a Hereford "moose". Missing a real moose broadside at 50yds. Dry firing his bow and bending the cams. And more...

He was in the airborne when it was disbanded, was in LdSH driving tank, and in Svc Bn. Talks and acts just like BdB. Lots of the same hot air about serving his country, staring the enemy down, being under fire, blah, blah, blah (insert overused Jack Nicolson monologue from A few good men) when challenged or confronted about his screw ups. The typical self glorification, big sacrifce to avoid criticism or admit his mistakes. So there is no doubt he's real army.

And after some of debates on here with some, I find that it is no stretch of imagination and may be more the norm, for a certain segment in the military. Afterall, if it's a calling, your probably going to come in as an officer or at least rise to the top of the enlisted ranks.....and can express your self quite well. For many others, it's the employment/income of last resort.

There's a joke ....but the punchline goes like, "Well if your not good in school, with your hands, or people, your probably quite good at marching.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by wags

It would seem to me that Aurora is where the theory of "more guns = more death" is truly exemplified. The guns used were all obtained legally.

Now I know, a response along the lines of 'criminals don't follow laws, he can get the guns anyway' and so on.

But, if the access to guns weren't so easily available, perhaps he wouldn't have had the opportunities to get those guns.

Cheers

Let's be honest. Anyone motivated enough to plan and execute a mass murder isn't going to be stopped by a logistics hiccup.

[wags]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

Let's be honest. Anyone motivated enough to plan and execute a mass murder isn't going to be stopped by a logistics hiccup.

I don't disagree, but easy access will contribute to the motivation in many cases. In others, lack of access will hamper that motivation.

[brownbomber]

Black heart to be fair I think you are being unfair. Of the military ex and current I know personally most were there for the right reasons, some were for the pat on the back and free Timmy's, and others were ambivalent because it beats driving forklift back home for 12/hr.
Casting all military personnel in the same light is wrong.

[brownbomber]

Some info here
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

I have two other witnesses. How about my son having to insist he not shoot a Hereford "moose". Missing a real moose broadside at 50yds. Dry firing his bow and bending the cams. And more...

He was in the airborne when it was disbanded, was in LdSH driving tank, and in Svc Bn. Talks and acts just like BdB. Lots of the same hot air about serving his country, staring the enemy down, being under fire, blah, blah, blah (insert overused Jack Nicolson monologue from A few good men) when challenged or confronted about his screw ups. The typical self glorification, big sacrifce to avoid criticism or admit his mistakes. So there is no doubt he's real army.

Sorry that was just a little poke at NWAB RCN. having met and done business with BDB I find you have a different opinion than I of the man. How would you know "hot air" from a hole in the ground . Airborne at disbandment were just back from tour in somalia iirc kind of a spetic pit in the sewage plant .imo you discribe an elderly fellow perhaps I am mistaken .

[Gust]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Again....Where's the link? No offence Gust, but without any proof these "facts" just don't make sense.

PBS is not neutral. Hugely left wing.


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention claimed that, on average, one child died every three days in accidental incidents in the U.S. from 2000 to 2005 = 122ish per year, out of 30,000ish gun deaths = Not a majority.

PBS is neither left nor right, I highly recommend it, and it also doesn't use sensationalist dialogue (accentuations to connote something as happy or bad). Give it a whirl, you might be surprised at the format.

The 94 stats are easy to find.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Gust

PBS is neither left nor right, I highly recommend it, and it also doesn't use sensationalist dialogue (accentuations to connote something as happy or bad). Give it a whirl, you might be surprised at the format.

The 94 stats are easy to find.

From Brownbombers pdf file for 1994 the number was 185 children under the age of 14. Of 1,356 accidental
deaths by gunshot in 1994, 185 involved
children 14 years old and under. Pretty close to my 122ish estimate for 2000 to 2005...numbers are declining I guess.

[brownbomber]

I've been watching tone and inflection quite a bit lately. It helps set the table for the nature of the feature how the news station wants the news to be seen.... both sides guilty of that.
I started that by watching sports with the volume off and then on, many broadcasters try to steer you in a direction.
Watch a UFC event on mute you will be amazed.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Black heart to be fair I think you are being unfair. Of the military ex and current I know personally most were there for the right reasons, some were for the pat on the back and free Timmy's, and others were ambivalent because it beats driving forklift back home for 12/hr.
Casting all military personnel in the same light is wrong.

Don't take me wrong. But there two very distinct types in the military. The pro and the schmoe.

And it's very easy to figure out who is which one. But my example is to illustrate and burst fish gunners concept that military training with guns makes such a safer gun carrier. It to show (from personal experience) that there are also idiots on his side of the fence as well. So big ideas of training will never rid the world of idiots who get crushed by pop machines or blow their balls off.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by wags

I don't disagree, but easy access will contribute to the motivation in many cases. In others, lack of access will hamper that motivation.

Perhaps when it comes to overeating, but I can't see it when it comes to murder. Hate and insanity are two powerful forces, and they aren't often encouraged (or interrupted) by the presence (or lack thereof) of inatimate objects.

[Gust]

This is a WHO report, I'm looking for a very specific ATF report for 94 (though it could be 92 or 93). This should suffice for now,, must shave.

Non-fatal firearms injuries account for a significant number of hospital visits. There were 478,400 fatal and nonfatal firearms incidents in the U.S. of which 97.4% were nonfatal. Of those injured, 75% required medical attention and 80% of those were hospitalized. The rate of nonfatal firearms injuries has declined over the past 2 decades in the U.S. (Kalesan et al, 2013)

Child safety is an important issue. Accidental shooting deaths are most commonly associated with one or more children playing with a gun they found in the home. (Choi, et al, 1994) The person pulling the trigger is a friend, family member, or the victim. (Harruff, 1992) In the period from 1979 to 2000, accidental firearms deaths involving children declined in the U.S., aided by child access prevention laws and felony prosecution of offenders. (Hepburn et al, 2006) This trend has continued, as reported in a study from 2009 (Safavi et al, 2013). A study of nonnatural deaths in a large American city revealed that half of such deaths in persons from 10 to 19 years of age were due to homicide, and firearms were involved in 88% of them. (Heninger and Hanzlick, 2008)

The table below indicates mode of death for firearms injuries in the ten countries with the most reported deaths from firearms for children less than 15 years of age. (CDC, 1997)

In one survey, 10% of families admitted to having unlocked and loaded firearms within easy reach of children (Patterson and Smith, 1987). Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occurred in the home, and one-third involved children under 15. 45% were self-inflicted, and 16% occurred when children were playing with guns. (Morrow and Hudson, 1986) A study from 1991-2000 showed that twice as many people died from unintentional firearm injuries in states in the U.S. where firearm owners were more likely to store their firearms loaded. (Miller, et al, 2005)

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

[brownbomber]

That is quite fair. I know one guy in particular that shouldn't have a BB gun ( completely utterly careless/stupid) and was in the military navy I believe.
But I also know many without any military training (including family) who posses firearms and really really shouldn't be anywhere near them and yes most would apply for ccw if it was permitted here.

[Gust]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

Don't take me wrong. But there two very distinct types in the military. The pro and the schmoe.

No vet slagging on this thread.

[Hagalaz]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

Let's be honest. Anyone motivated enough to plan and execute a mass murder isn't going to be stopped by a logistics hiccup.

Well said.

Gun control will only stop those who follow the set laws.

[wags]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

Perhaps when it comes to overeating, but I can't see it when it comes to murder. Hate and insanity are two powerful forces, and they aren't often encouraged (or interrupted) by the presence (or lack thereof) of inatimate objects.

Then I would ask why there are not a proportionally equal amount of these events occurring in Canada?

I am going on the assumption that we have our share of mentally disturbed individuals.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by wags

Then I would ask why there are not a proportionally equal amount of these events occurring in Canada?

I am going on the assumption that we have our share of mentally disturbed individuals.

Lepine and Taber come to mind. That's 2 for Canada should be around 20 in the states in that time frame. Tough to make comparisons between Canada and USA...or any other countries as I suspect culture among many other things play a huge role.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Gust

This is a WHO report, I'm looking for a very specific ATF report for 94 (though it could be 92 or 93). This should suffice for now,, must shave.

Non-fatal firearms injuries account for a significant number of hospital visits. There were 478,400 fatal and nonfatal firearms incidents in the U.S. of which 97.4% were nonfatal. Of those injured, 75% required medical attention and 80% of those were hospitalized. The rate of nonfatal firearms injuries has declined over the past 2 decades in the U.S. (Kalesan et al, 2013)

Child safety is an important issue. Accidental shooting deaths are most commonly associated with one or more children playing with a gun they found in the home. (Choi, et al, 1994) The person pulling the trigger is a friend, family member, or the victim. (Harruff, 1992) In the period from 1979 to 2000, accidental firearms deaths involving children declined in the U.S., aided by child access prevention laws and felony prosecution of offenders. (Hepburn et al, 2006) This trend has continued, as reported in a study from 2009 (Safavi et al, 2013). A study of nonnatural deaths in a large American city revealed that half of such deaths in persons from 10 to 19 years of age were due to homicide, and firearms were involved in 88% of them. (Heninger and Hanzlick, 2008)

The table below indicates mode of death for firearms injuries in the ten countries with the most reported deaths from firearms for children less than 15 years of age. (CDC, 1997)

In one survey, 10% of families admitted to having unlocked and loaded firearms within easy reach of children (Patterson and Smith, 1987). Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occurred in the home, and one-third involved children under 15. 45% were self-inflicted, and 16% occurred when children were playing with guns. (Morrow and Hudson, 1986) A study from 1991-2000 showed that twice as many people died from unintentional firearm injuries in states in the U.S. where firearm owners were more likely to store their firearms loaded. (Miller, et al, 2005)

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

awe G why'd have go and find the facts .
Read that one finding very carefully I would like to yell at the top of my lungs 4:1 killed vs saved or 300% more people are killed by lawfully owned firearms than protected. Well how many times have suggested this as a truth and been call down . thankx G .now the retort lolololololol . Left wing anti gun study ill go first lolol.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Sorry that was just a little poke at NWAB RCN. having met and done business with BDB I find you have a different opinion than I of the man. How would you know "hot air" from a hole in the ground . Airborne at disbandment were just back from tour in somalia iirc kind of a spetic pit in the sewage plant .imo you discribe an elderly fellow perhaps I am mistaken .

53/54 now...not that elderly. Signed up sometime after high school. Got out on a disability. He never mentioned Somalia, though I doubt most do.
Rwanda was from 93 to 96
Airborne was disbanded in 95 due to Somalia

So that would make him 33/34 when it was disbanded. It fits, but it also wouldn't be inconceivable that there are holes in his military stories. But their is no doubt he's was in for 21 years.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Lepine and Taber come to mind. That's 2 for Canada should be around 20 in the states in that time frame. Tough to make comparisons between Canada and USA...or any other countries as I suspect culture among many other things play a huge role.

But in no way should easy access to firearms be mentioned ..its culture ie the US may be lacking in cultre but over flowing with firearms.
Sorry R that was just flapping around waiting to be lit up.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by Gust

No vet slagging on this thread.

Is it slagging if it's true. And used to prove a point?

Didn't know this was a "politically correct only" thread. But if it is, I'll stop posting on it.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

Is it slagging if it's true. And used to prove a point?

Yes as the fellow cannot speak on his own behalf ... and the G said so.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Yes as the fellow cannot speak on his own behalf ... and the G said so.

That makes two of you.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

But in no way should easy access to firearms be mentioned ..its culture ie the US may be lacking in cultre but over flowing with firearms.
Sorry R that was just flapping around waiting to be lit up.

but then there would it be if it wasnt. just the way it goes and it proves the point that for sure.

No offence FG but kind of shoots that theory into the wind of yours coming from the west