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03-07-2017, 05:33 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Depends where you are and what species. You have to remember that many in BC want tourism as the only industry in the province. Pretty hard to do that if you cut tourism opportunities there
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Sounds like a whole different mentality than here. I let our local Outfitter on our land here and have met some really nice "aliens" LOL. My experience with Residents has been not been as nice.
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03-07-2017, 05:38 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13mileranch
Sounds like a whole different mentality than here. I let our local Outfitter on our land here and have met some really nice "aliens" LOL. My experience with Residents has been not been as nice.
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I know you're not alone there.
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03-07-2017, 05:43 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Luckily the people that make the decisions have more brains then you two !!!
100 million dollars gone for your own greed, sounds good boys
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Is this how you treat resident hunters? Or everyone?
Seems like a predictable attitude with some outfitters I have met.
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03-07-2017, 05:43 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwoods
Pretty sad justification of folding an entire industry. There's thousands of niche markets that if they singularly shut down wouldn't hit the radar either. I would venture hundreds if not thousands of jobs would be lost if there were no more outfitters. But hey if that gives us 20 tags instead of the 17 we can already have who cares right? Again, balance. I don't have blind allegiance to the outfitting industry at all. But I do champion their existence. As much as I value you having your job and contributing to our province in whatever industry you happen to be in.
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Probably not too many jobs would be lost at all as there are less than 500 outfitters who, for many of them, do not depend on outfitting as their primary source of income. For others, it is just a glorified hobby, often funded by foreign sources, that provides an opportunity to make a few extra dollars. Add to that a few hundred part-time guides and it really does'nt amount to a whole lot , including the supporting businesses.
This is not to suggest anyone wants to see Outfitting eliminated.. just cleaned up a bunch. The self regulation and guaranteed allotment idea doesn't seem to be working and it's peeing other resource users right off. Pretty plain to see.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-07-2017, 05:54 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Probably not too many jobs would be lost at all as there are less than 500 outfitters who, for many of them, do not depend on outfitting as their primary source of income. For others, it is just a glorified hobby, often funded by foreign sources, that provides an opportunity to make a few extra dollars. Add to that a few hundred part-time guides and it really does'nt amount to a whole lot , including the supporting businesses.
This is not to suggest anyone wants to see Outfitting eliminated.. just cleaned up a bunch. The self regulation and guaranteed allotment idea doesn't seem to be working and it's peeing other resource users right off. Pretty plain to see.
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The Outfitter I let on here supplements his cattle operation with the income. He's a standup guy and I am sure he appreciated the extra income through the BSE crisis. I won't disagree some of this needs cleaning up but it seems there are some broad paint brushes on this Forum.
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03-07-2017, 05:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Luckily the people that make the decisions have more brains then you two !!!
100 million dollars gone for your own greed, sounds good boys
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I wonder how much of that actually makes it to the tax coffers?
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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03-07-2017, 06:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
I would be okay with that. You need to realize, that many people can't afford the costs of hunting outside of Alberta. They either hunt in Alberta, or they don't hunt at all.
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It really does not cost much to hunt in the USA for a lot of species you know right?Even driving into Montana from Edmonton will cost me what, an extra tank of gas. There are t on of opportunity in Montana, Wyoming and even BC. Look at all the guys running to Saskatchewan to hunt deer and even Birds every year from here.
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03-07-2017, 06:13 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I wonder how much of that actually makes it to the tax coffers?
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I would hope no different than any other business. I actually think outfitters get Audited quite often. I suspect most small businesses like outfitting would be.
Some of you are wanting changes. What changes do you want? So far the ones I have heard are not going to change the amount of animals available to make it easier or quicker for you to get a tag.
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03-07-2017, 06:15 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Wholly smokes!!!
I am literally laughing out loud at some of the comments on this thread myself.
Clueless and the need for tinfoil hats come to mind.
Seriously, some folks have absolutely no clue how the world turns, let alone how outfitting in Alberta works.
Count me in on being upset that I can't buy an archery moose tag, yet the government is selling moose hunts to Americans. ITS THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS IN CHARGE OF OUR FISH AND WILDLIFE, along with all our other resources.
What are the animals everyone is worried about? Sheep? Pronghorn? Mule deer? Moose? Elk? Whitetail? Bear? How many of these animals are actually harvested per year? Can one of the people who are all bent out of shape post the actual numbers of how many of these animals are actually harvested every year so we can see why you feel so threatened?
The total number of animal that were harvested by non-resident aliens in Alberta during the 2012 season is around 1800, and I would guess, and this is only a guess, that 75-80% of those animals were whitetail and bear. A little over 6000 allocations available in Alberta, about a 25-30% success rate (obviously not hunting with me!), that is about 4% of the total harvest per year in Alberta. This means 94% of the animals harvested are from Albertans, the other 2% would be non-resident Canadians.
Seriously, 1800 animals for a $40,000,000/year ($22,220 per animal) industry? Granted it's only an estimate on the revenue generated from outfitted hunts, but I bet it's damn accurate!
Remember, just because a hunt is sold, doesn't mean they kill an animal. Any trophy hunter knows that if you're after a trophy the success rate goes down.
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03-07-2017, 06:22 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube
I would hope no different than any other business. I actually think outfitters get Audited quite often. I suspect most small businesses like outfitting would be.
Some of you are wanting changes. What changes do you want? So far the ones I have heard are not going to change the amount of animals available to make it easier or quicker for you to get a tag.
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I want the outfitter allocations per WMU to be what they are supposed to be. If you think that reducing outfitter allocations to 10% will not increase resident tag numbers you are wrong.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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03-07-2017, 06:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Wholly smokes!!!
I am literally laughing out loud at some of the comments on this thread myself.
Clueless and the need for tinfoil hats come to mind.
Seriously, some folks have absolutely no clue how the world turns, let alone how outfitting in Alberta works.
Count me in on being upset that I can't buy an archery moose tag, yet the government is selling moose hunts to Americans. ITS THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS IN CHARGE OF OUR FISH AND WILDLIFE, along with all our other resources.
What are the animals everyone is worried about? Sheep? Pronghorn? Mule deer? Moose? Elk? Whitetail? Bear? How many of these animals are actually harvested per year? Can one of the people who are all bent out of shape post the actual numbers of how many of these animals are actually harvested every year so we can see why you feel so threatened?
The total number of animal that were harvested by non-resident aliens in Alberta during the 2012 season is around 1800, and I would guess, and this is only a guess, that 75-80% of those animals were whitetail and bear. A little over 6000 allocations available in Alberta, about a 25-30% success rate (obviously not hunting with me!), that is about 4% of the total harvest per year in Alberta. This means 94% of the animals harvested are from Albertans, the other 2% would be non-resident Canadians.
Seriously, 1800 animals for a $40,000,000/year ($22,220 per animal) industry? Granted it's only an estimate on the revenue generated from outfitted hunts, but I bet it's damn accurate!
Remember, just because a hunt is sold, doesn't mean they kill an animal. Any trophy hunter knows that if you're after a trophy the success rate goes down.
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By far the best post in this thread,
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03-07-2017, 06:33 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter
Is this how you treat resident hunters? Or everyone?
Seems like a predictable attitude with some outfitters I have met.
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No, that's how I treat people who would like to see our livelihoods eliminated purely because of their own selfish greed.
Were those the Outfitters you were paying to hunt with or just the ones you annoy because you're a hypocrite???
Please clear it up for us !!!
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03-07-2017, 06:37 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I want the outfitter allocations per WMU to be what they are supposed to be. If you think that reducing outfitter allocations to 10% will not increase resident tag numbers you are wrong.
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And I think if you were to look at the numbers they are what they are supposed to be except for the very few WMU's that they are not. I agree they should be set right and if you look at my previous commnet then you will realise these changes happen every 5 years I think. Hopefully after that they should be back to normal.
There is a review every 5 years to fix the differences from my understanding. Can you tell me anything different?
They are not going to sit down and go over it every year
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03-07-2017, 06:38 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,818
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I heard an unofficial but credible number the other day that 1/3 Hunter in Alberta is actually ineligible to hunt....meaning they do not meet the requirements to purchase licenses and tags in Alberta, yet they use the loopholes current and past to skirt the rules.
Think about that....
LC
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03-07-2017, 06:40 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,559
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Money and hunting, not a good mix, it will spell the end of hunting as we know it. The future is the wealthy will hunt, the rest of us will dream of what was. Seems lots are more than OK with that.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”
Thomas Sowell
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03-07-2017, 06:43 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
I heard an unofficial but credible number the other day that 1/3 Hunter in Alberta is actually ineligible to hunt....meaning they do not meet the requirements to purchase licenses and tags in Alberta, yet they use the loopholes current and past to skirt the rules.
Think about that....
LC
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Can you edit this Kris, I don't understand what you're saying?
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03-07-2017, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Wholly smokes!!!
I am literally laughing out loud at some of the comments on this thread myself.
Clueless and the need for tinfoil hats come to mind.
Seriously, some folks have absolutely no clue how the world turns, let alone how outfitting in Alberta works.
Count me in on being upset that I can't buy an archery moose tag, yet the government is selling moose hunts to Americans. ITS THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS IN CHARGE OF OUR FISH AND WILDLIFE, along with all our other resources.
What are the animals everyone is worried about? Sheep? Pronghorn? Mule deer? Moose? Elk? Whitetail? Bear? How many of these animals are actually harvested per year? Can one of the people who are all bent out of shape post the actual numbers of how many of these animals are actually harvested every year so we can see why you feel so threatened?
The total number of animal that were harvested by non-resident aliens in Alberta during the 2012 season is around 1800, and I would guess, and this is only a guess, that 75-80% of those animals were whitetail and bear. A little over 6000 allocations available in Alberta, about a 25-30% success rate (obviously not hunting with me!), that is about 4% of the total harvest per year in Alberta. This means 94% of the animals harvested are from Albertans, the other 2% would be non-resident Canadians.
Seriously, 1800 animals for a $40,000,000/year ($22,220 per animal) industry? Granted it's only an estimate on the revenue generated from outfitted hunts, but I bet it's damn accurate!
Remember, just because a hunt is sold, doesn't mean they kill an animal. Any trophy hunter knows that if you're after a trophy the success rate goes down.
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40 million is a long way from the 100 million posted previously.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-07-2017, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Wholly smokes!!!
I am literally laughing out loud at some of the comments on this thread myself.
Clueless and the need for tinfoil hats come to mind.
Seriously, some folks have absolutely no clue how the world turns, let alone how outfitting in Alberta works.
Count me in on being upset that I can't buy an archery moose tag, yet the government is selling moose hunts to Americans. ITS THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS IN CHARGE OF OUR FISH AND WILDLIFE, along with all our other resources.
What are the animals everyone is worried about? Sheep? Pronghorn? Mule deer? Moose? Elk? Whitetail? Bear? How many of these animals are actually harvested per year? Can one of the people who are all bent out of shape post the actual numbers of how many of these animals are actually harvested every year so we can see why you feel so threatened?
The total number of animal that were harvested by non-resident aliens in Alberta during the 2012 season is around 1800, and I would guess, and this is only a guess, that 75-80% of those animals were whitetail and bear. A little over 6000 allocations available in Alberta, about a 25-30% success rate (obviously not hunting with me!), that is about 4% of the total harvest per year in Alberta. This means 94% of the animals harvested are from Albertans, the other 2% would be non-resident Canadians.
Seriously, 1800 animals for a $40,000,000/year ($22,220 per animal) industry? Granted it's only an estimate on the revenue generated from outfitted hunts, but I bet it's damn accurate!
Remember, just because a hunt is sold, doesn't mean they kill an animal. Any trophy hunter knows that if you're after a trophy the success rate goes down.
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Now that you have all that figured out, are you aware of any of this type of activity ?
(quote from Walking Buffalo)
""Super secret" level meeting are being held to review and update the Outfitter Policy and Allocation agreement. Actually, these have been going on for the last several years.... with absolutely NO progress, just stonewalling and suppression of the Public consultation process. "
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-07-2017, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 4,961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Can you edit this Kris, I don't understand what you're saying?
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He's saying the "resident requirements" are the major problem contributing to wait times. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.
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03-07-2017, 06:53 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Can you edit this Kris, I don't understand what you're saying?
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Many "resident" hunters in Alberta are not truly eligible...meaning, they hunt as residents but aren't, they have not met eligibility requirements (Hunter training, etc) or they hunt here while under suspension elsewhere...the checks and balances do not exist and the number of enforcement officers is insufficient to address these issues.
LC
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03-07-2017, 06:56 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Actually it is. Your money is made in this province, it came from here and it gets spent here.
Nobody is saying resident hunters don't spend money on hunting, but you guys are questioning how much of the money spent by a non resident hunter goes into our economy. To which I replied all of it, which it is.
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Okay, Tork. I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment. You earn the majority of your income from the widlife of BC, yet you live in Alberta, ostensibly spending the lion's share of your guiding money elsewhere. If I lived in BC, I wouldn't be very happy with you
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03-07-2017, 07:02 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube
And I think if you were to look at the numbers they are what they are supposed to be except for the very few WMU's that they are not. I agree they should be set right and if you look at my previous commnet then you will realise these changes happen every 5 years I think. Hopefully after that they should be back to normal.
There is a review every 5 years to fix the differences from my understanding. Can you tell me anything different?
They are not going to sit down and go over it every year
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You are certainly correct. However, they did absolutely nothing about it at the last review.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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03-07-2017, 07:18 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Now that you have all that figured out, are you aware of any of this type of activity ?
(quote from Walking Buffalo)
""Super secret" level meeting are being held to review and update the Outfitter Policy and Allocation agreement. Actually, these have been going on for the last several years.... with absolutely NO progress, just stonewalling and suppression of the Public consultation process. "
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Now that I have all what figured out? I only posted numbers from the 2012 survey and added what I beleive to be an accurate $$ amount spent per non resident hunter based on 20yrs guiding. I clearly stated I was guessing at the % of types of animals made up the 1800 that were taken (it was actually under 1800).
Those meetings are "super secret", probably no more than 3 people knew of them up until this thread popped up! I am not one of the chosen few.
I have been in the business for close to 20yrs, but I'm just a working stiff. It's like any other occupation, I probably know a lot more than the average joe about the situation, but I'm not the boss and I don't know how he plans on running the company.
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03-07-2017, 07:22 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
Many "resident" hunters in Alberta are not truly eligible...meaning, they hunt as residents but aren't, they have not met eligibility requirements (Hunter training, etc) or they hunt here while under suspension elsewhere...the checks and balances do not exist and the number of enforcement officers is insufficient to address these issues.
LC
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Ah, gotcha.
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03-07-2017, 07:41 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Now that I have all what figured out? I only posted numbers from the 2012 survey and added what I beleive to be an accurate $$ amount spent per non resident hunter based on 20yrs guiding. I clearly stated I was guessing at the % of types of animals made up the 1800 that were taken (it was actually under 1800).
Those meetings are "super secret", probably no more than 3 people knew of them up until this thread popped up! I am not one of the chosen few.
I have been in the business for close to 20yrs, but I'm just a working stiff. It's like any other occupation, I probably know a lot more than the average joe about the situation, but I'm not the boss and I don't know how he plans on running the company.
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All Good .. There are a few guys around who try to keep tabs on the Outfitting business but really, only a few have an inside track making the real info almost impossible to gather. That situation gives rise to speculation and innuendo which is readily apparent. The fact that there is little to no transparency regarding the Gov't dealings with APOS is definitely not a good thing.
It's really not all about animals.... more about methods.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-07-2017, 07:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Okay, Tork. I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment. You earn the majority of your income from the widlife of BC, yet you live in Alberta, ostensibly spending the lion's share of your guiding money elsewhere. If I lived in BC, I wouldn't be very happy with you
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I own a BC corporation that I run the outfit through. I pay corporate tax and gst in British Columbia. I employ guides from BC and Alberta as well as my cook from BC.
I buy groceries in BC, insurance, fuel, parts, equipment and lumber for cabins. My clients fly on Central Mountain Air and when required stay in BC hotels.
My taxidermist/shipping agent is in BC also
I also buy some equipment from Alberta, and use a charter company that does my flying out of the Yukon.
Federal tax, well that's all of us
So although not all money stays in BC, a good chunk of it does. Either way it's all coming from elsewhere and 99% is staying in the western Canadian economy
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03-07-2017, 08:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
All Good .. There are a few guys around who try to keep tabs on the Outfitting business but really, only a few have an inside track making the real info almost impossible to gather. That situation gives rise to speculation and innuendo which is readily apparent. The fact that there is little to no transparency regarding the Gov't dealings with APOS is definitely not a good thing.
It's really not all about animals.... more about methods.
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Trust me, I took issue with how a few guides in my zone operated, and in all honesty in recent years most, if not all crooked guides in my zone have slowly been weeded out. I know it's possible to both run a successesful outfitting business and have the respect of the local community, I'm living proof!
I run about an 80% success rate with my clients, and in the years since I started guiding I have went from about 6 quarters of land I can hunt on to over 20 sections, and the only land I have any type of exclusive rights to is friends land that nobody else could have hunted on anyway.
The animals that most residents have to have a draw for, have a way bigger threat than non resident aliens.
Last edited by Kurt505; 03-07-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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03-07-2017, 08:14 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
I own a BC corporation that I run the outfit through. I pay corporate tax and gst in British Columbia. I employ guides from BC and Alberta as well as my cook from BC.
I buy groceries in BC, insurance, fuel, parts, equipment and lumber for cabins. My clients fly on Central Mountain Air and when required stay in BC hotels.
My taxidermist/shipping agent is in BC also
I also buy some equipment from Alberta, and use a charter company that does my flying out of the Yukon.
Federal tax, well that's all of us
So although not all money stays in BC, a good chunk of it does. Either way it's all coming from elsewhere and 99% is staying in the western Canadian economy
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Thanks for elaborating.
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03-07-2017, 08:16 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 7,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
You are certainly correct. However, they did absolutely nothing about it at the last review.
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Then heads should roll! Was there a reason why or are we not getting all the right info?
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03-07-2017, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
You are certainly correct. However, they did absolutely nothing about it at the last review.
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That's not completely true chuck. I know guys that lost allocations in the last review, so although they might not have corrected every situation, they certainly corrected some of them.
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