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06-22-2012, 07:13 PM
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Location: Maidstone Sask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCLightning
I understand the post. Perhaps you could enlighten us why you have to make up some paranoic assumption that was not implied.
You were grandstanding for an emotional response because a logical argument does not exist?
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I must say that I am totally baffled by your response. I have passed each and every job site test that I have taken and I can pass one tomorrow. Merely because I would protest an un warranted test does not make me paranoid.
We have rights guaranteed to us and because I do not choose to give these up does not make me emotional, a grandstander, or illogical.
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you see in the original post that grabbed your attention.
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06-22-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
these threads are funny ....the guys that use always come up with arguments against testing... ON MY SITE WHEN I HAVE UPWARDS OF30+ PEOPLE OUT THERE PUMPING HIGH PRESSURE, I DON"T NEED ANY IMPAIRED PEOPLE!,,,thank you
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stands up and claps my hands ... well said my friend ... no place for drugs or booze .. either on the job or behind the wheel ...
hang em
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Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of.......Ben Franklin
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06-22-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
If there is an issue with someone doing dope or drinking on a site, you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be me that is Leaving.
A random computer generated test is not performance evaluation by a superintendent, which can be manipulated either way, depending on the persons involved.
This also has nothing to do with in fringing on someone's rights because they did something on the weekend, as I stated in my earlier post explaining the differences between an oral swab test and a urine test.
it has everything to do with people endangering others by using drugs and alcohol on site, and the astronomical costs of caring for those injured after the fact as well as lost time cost, WCB costs, and other costs such as the loss of a family member or co-worker.
I also truly believe that all employees should be tested, office personal as well as supervision, not just tool hands.
The carpenters union was at the forefront of the original RSAP , but we rejected it until they brought in oral swab testing instead of urine tests.
Cat
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I know one of the 3 companies doesn't swab, not sure about the other two. Would you still be for random testing if it was only urine and someone could get fired/sent to rehab even though they weren't impaired? I have seen this happen to two co-workers.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderheart
stands up and claps my hands ... well said my friend ... no place for drugs or booze .. either on the job or behind the wheel ...
hang em
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No one is advocating having impaired people in safety sensitive positions. People here are assuming that if you are against random invasions of privacy, you are a drug user or don't care about safety. This is false.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 07:27 PM
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WOW I have not read all of the posts here but I came from construction in the States with a fairly large General Contractor. It was policy that any subcontractor who came onto a job site would have all of his employees tested for drugs at the General Contractor's expense and this was done before they could do any work on the site..........
My next to last project......The Superintendent, who also served as the Safety Officer for that project, was not in the first day the steel erector started..........so none of their employees were tested until the second day on the job..................... Their crane operator left.....told the Super he could not take that test..........would lose his job on the spot.
Isn't that a peachy keen thing to know that a guy who was to haul steel 60 feet in the air had enough drugs in his system - done on his own time he told the Super - that he KNEW he would FLUNK that test...........
I am glad to see this come to Alberta. If Kegriver is ever on a site where they require this I will be 100% behind whoever orders it and I doubt he would not back them too. BUT as his wife I WILL back testing such as this.
I really do not care about someone's rights to do whatever they want in their own time. If the effects of that action carry over to the workday and those effects cost my husband his life WHO IN THE WORLD IS GOING TO SUPPORT ME?????????????????????? Ya think the Government is gonna say oh yes Mrs. Keg we know you are from the States but it was ok we had to protect the other guy's rights.........sorry your husband is dead and sorry you won't have any funds coming in to pay your bills.........BUT not to worry WE WILL TAKE GOOD CARE OF YOU....................... RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT my butt would end up having to sell what we have here in Alberta and I would end up having to return to the States because the type of work I do is not in northern Alberta...........oh I could move to Calgary and maybe get a job with a G.C. who is part of my former company but I would fare much better returning to the States and going with another G.C. there............and I do NOT WANT TO LEAVE ALBERTA.......... I love it here and yes, I am trying to become a permanent resident and yes, my next move is then to become a citizen of Canada. I took this move very seriously.
I hope those in charge of seeing drug testing in the workplace pursue and win to keep this in force and it does not need to be random either..........and for those on welfare here and in the States - Ya know I had to pass a drug test to get several jobs in my working career there.............why shouldn't people who are getting money paid to them via the working class folks also have to pass drug and alcohol tests before they can get their checks EACH MONTH.
You can see it is a very good thing I am not in charge of the program 
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06-22-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batwoman
WOW I have not read all of the posts here but I came from construction in the States with a fairly large General Contractor. It was policy that any subcontractor who came onto a job site would have all of his employees tested for drugs at the General Contractor's expense and this was done before they could do any work on the site..........
My next to last project......The Superintendent, who also served as the Safety Officer for that project, was not in the first day the steel erector started..........so none of their employees were tested until the second day on the job..................... Their crane operator left.....told the Super he could not take that test..........would lose his job on the spot.
Isn't that a peachy keen thing to know that a guy who was to haul steel 60 feet in the air had enough drugs in his system - done on his own time he told the Super - that he KNEW he would FLUNK that test...........
I am glad to see this come to Alberta. If Kegriver is ever on a site where they require this I will be 100% behind whoever orders it and I doubt he would not back them too. BUT as his wife I WILL back testing such as this.
I really do not care about someone's rights to do whatever they want in their own time. If the effects of that action carry over to the workday and those effects cost my husband his life WHO IN THE WORLD IS GOING TO SUPPORT ME?????????????????????? Ya think the Government is gonna say oh yes Mrs. Keg we know you are from the States but it was ok we had to protect the other guy's rights.........sorry your husband is dead and sorry you won't have any funds coming in to pay your bills.........BUT not to worry WE WILL TAKE GOOD CARE OF YOU....................... RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT my butt would end up having to sell what we have here in Alberta and I would end up having to return to the States because the type of work I do is not in northern Alberta...........oh I could move to Calgary and maybe get a job with a G.C. who is part of my former company but I would fare much better returning to the States and going with another G.C. there............and I do NOT WANT TO LEAVE ALBERTA.......... I love it here and yes, I am trying to become a permanent resident and yes, my next move is then to become a citizen of Canada. I took this move very seriously.
I hope those in charge of seeing drug testing in the workplace pursue and win to keep this in force and it does not need to be random either..........and for those on welfare here and in the States - Ya know I had to pass a drug test to get several jobs in my working career there.............why shouldn't people who are getting money paid to them via the working class folks also have to pass drug and alcohol tests before they can get their checks EACH MONTH.
You can see it is a very good thing I am not in charge of the program |
I am kinda confused by your post. Are you for or against random testing? No one is complaining about pre-job testing... or post incident... or with cause...
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
No one is advocating having impaired people in safety sensitive positions. People here are assuming that if you are against random invasions of privacy, you are a drug user or don't care about safety. This is false.
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no matter how you look at it friend if someone is using drugs or booze and have even the smallest impairment because of it, it can cost others there lives .. whether employed by a major or a small outfit it does not matter.. there is NO place for impairment on the job site and i believe fully that the companies have the right to do random testing ... a persons right to use does not supersede a persons right to a safe work place ... no way no how ......
if you dont use then dont worry .. if a person wants to destroy there own life, have at it...
be assured i am not a fan of a nanny state...
work safe out there .. its a jungle
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Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of.......Ben Franklin
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06-22-2012, 07:40 PM
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that rsap swab test with the hall how many hours does it test 12 hours 10 hours 8 hours?
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06-22-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.
sounds like you're high,,,
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Hardy commarade.
Military....we've been at it for years.
That doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with randon testing of ordinary citisens.
Funny...I guess in that respect I have been caring about your rights...in an active way much more than you yourself have.
You can thank big brother and the rest of the fascists for nibbling away at your rights if you want to...but I sure won't.
What so many here do not seem to apprecaite is that the price of freedom is that we all have to accept a degree of risk in our lives to maintain it.
It is comforting to be mothered...to have others there that will take care of lifes little inconvieniences....to regulate our world so that we have nothing to fear but every new law...every rule every regulation is one less choice...one less freedom.
Often it is a good thing and everyone knows it but....
"Freedom is never an over-used word. It is a concept that most people are afraid of, however. That is why so many will tolerate a nip here and a bite there (for a good cause, of course) and eventually end up sitting together in leg irons toasting their freedom. (A. de Toqville)" (thanks to Rocky7 for the quote...by the way.)
My thought is that this initiative is really no different that the LGR... and about as useful.
Many addicts can work...and in fact do.
Many are highly productive employees.
So...what happens when they get caught?
Many pot smokers do not show up high and are also very good workers.
Many alcoholics also are good workers and manage to keep it away from work.
In fact it takes something like 5-7 years of daily hard drinking by the average alcoholic... before it starts to show at work.
What is the long term cost of suddenly having a fairly large number of people unemployed and on assistance?
Are we prepared to deal with them?
Cause they aren't going to evaporate and neither will their families or the people that hold their debts.
Are we willing to pick up the tab for that?
Because...in the end...we will.
What happens when someone figures out that having a drug in your system isn't the same as being high on the job and may not be an indication that you even used?
This is private bussiness convicting and punishing citizens outside of a judicial system and above the allowance of any law in Canada to date.
I'm not eager to support a trend of entrusting our rights as people to a bunch of executives whose only loyalties are to profits and stock options....many of whom are using drugs or drinking on the job themselves.
You may feel differently...
I'd love to be able to stop that but...again...the price of freedom is often living with risk.
Including the risk that too many well meaning people will decide that it is OK to hand over their liberties and mine to a bunch of fascists or commies in nice suits who tell us tiny little half truths and that it's all for our best interest...so we don't have to worry/think about it... they'll take care of everything
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06-22-2012, 07:52 PM
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Gone Hunting
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@ Pesky, I am neither a suit or a commie, my job is to make sure everyone gets home safe...take that as you will....I take it seriously....seen too much to argue such an idiotic point
@ Canadian...what one earth is a "post incident" test any good for???...or for that matter pre-employment???...they all know when they're applying for a job they have to pee, so lay off whatever for 48 hrs., pass the test, then carry on as before when they're heading to work for me....all bases covered...right!!!?????
BTW,,, CEO's doe drugs and drink????....really.,, ? would like some substantiated info on that one...if they do, they don't last long......I wouldn't think
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06-22-2012, 07:53 PM
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OOPS thanks Candiantdi!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Yeah this happens with me..........the main point gets left out.........it was in my head but never made it to the keyboard or the screen.
I am for the random drug testing. I understand about the pre employment and post incident but once again my mind went off to left field.
so for the record the American is for Random Drug Testing here in Alberta
and I am sorry for leaving that OUT of my first post...........I need kegriver back home to keep me on track.
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06-22-2012, 07:54 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
If there is an issue with someone doing dope or drinking on a site, you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be me that is Leaving.
A random computer generated test is not performance evaluation by a superintendent, which can be manipulated either way, depending on the persons involved.
This also has nothing to do with in fringing on someone's rights because they did something on the weekend, as I stated in my earlier post explaining the differences between an oral swab test and a urine test.
it has everything to do with people endangering others by using drugs and alcohol on site, and the astronomical costs of caring for those injured after the fact as well as lost time cost, WCB costs, and other costs such as the loss of a family member or co-worker.
I also truly believe that all employees should be tested, office personal as well as supervision, not just tool hands.
The carpenters union was at the forefront of the original RSAP , but we rejected it until they brought in oral swab testing instead of urine tests.
Cat
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Well welcome to the new world government and say farewell to freedom and a democracy cause it is dying a bit every day things like this are tollerated.
I'm sorry Cat...I know you mean well and are sincere...I enjoy your posts ...but on this issue...we'll never see eye to eye.
No hard feelings.
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06-22-2012, 07:55 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Maidstone Sask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.
The minute before the guy hopped on drugs kills three of his coworkers by dropping a pipe, he was "working normally and not making mistakes".
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No, he wasnt. Somebody saw that "buddy" wasnt right but didnt say anything because they thought he would be okay. This does not happen out of the blue, there are signs for most to see, but the urge to cover up is tough to beat.
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06-22-2012, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderheart
no matter how you look at it friend if someone is using drugs or booze and have even the smallest impairment because of it, it can cost others there lives .. whether employed by a major or a small outfit it does not matter.. there is NO place for impairment on the job site and i believe fully that the companies have the right to do random testing ... a persons right to use does not supersede a persons right to a safe work place ... no way no how ......
if you dont use then dont worry .. if a person wants to destroy there own life, have at it...
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I agree, impairment doesn't belong in the workplace. We aren't talking about a persons "right to use", we are talking about a persons right to freedom from invasive searches.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 07:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: moving to quesnel
Posts: 3,013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
I agree, impairment doesn't belong in the workplace. We aren't talking about a persons "right to use", we are talking about a persons right to freedom from invasive searches.
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yes well part and parcel of a safe work place friend ...
__________________
Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of.......Ben Franklin
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06-22-2012, 08:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: On top of sphagetti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
@ Pesky, I am neither a suit or a commie, my job is to make sure everyone gets home safe...take that as you will....I take it seriously....seen too much to argue such an idiotic point
@ Canadian...what one earth is a "post incident" test any good for???...or for that matter pre-employment???...they all know when they're applying for a job they have to pee, so lay off whatever for 48 hrs., pass the test, then carry on as before when they're heading to work for me....all bases covered...right!!!?????
BTW,,, CEO's doe drugs and drink????....really.,, ? would like some substantiated info on that one...if they do, they don't last long......I wouldn't think
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Most incidents cause no harm or loss of life, post incident testing even for minor incidents will weed out many drug users.
Pre-employment works because many drug users will not even apply, and some will still fail.
You conveniently left out the part where I said that people should be tested if there is cause. You see someone impaired? Test them... Smell of booze? Pot? test them... look stoned? you get the idea. You can generally tell if someone is under the influence by talking with and observing someone.
Yes, all bases covered and no ones rights get trampled.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver
No, he wasnt. Somebody saw that "buddy" wasnt right but didnt say anything because they thought he would be okay. This does not happen out of the blue, there are signs for most to see, but the urge to cover up is tough to beat.
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THIS^^^ The signs are there!!! But no one wants to rat....
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:11 PM
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Location: On top of sphagetti
Posts: 3,565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderheart
yes well part and parcel of a safe work place friend ...
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That's not true though!
I worked at a site for over 7 years where there was no random drug testing.. believe it or not, no one died. No one was injured because of drug/alcohol use (that I am aware of anyways)
I saw two people fail testing they were subjected to after making minor mistakes where no one was at risk. Both were for marijuana. Neither were impaired, just residual, but it didn't matter.. This, in my opinion is a flawed system.
Would random testing have made me any safer in those 7 or so years in my last job? I would say that more guys would have been sent away to rehab for weed, but it wouldn't have made anyone safer...
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:21 PM
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Location: Maidstone Sask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
THIS^^^ The signs are there!!! But no one wants to rat....
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There I think is the problem.
I was on a non union site a couple of years ago, I had a rigger, pee drunk, he talked to the GF on an issue, pretty hard not to see he wasnt drunk, nothing was done. I refused to work with him, told him to go sleep it off.
Yeah I am guilty, sort of. I sloughed him off, saw he could do little harm and didnt report him.
Yeah, I am part of the problem, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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06-22-2012, 08:23 PM
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In this entire thread, the most troubling phrase I have read was
'right to use' 
Someone's planets are not aligned. 
__________________
Only dead fish go with the flow. The rest use their brains in life.
Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought..... 
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06-22-2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette
In this entire thread, the most troubling phrase I have read was
'right to use'
Someone's planets are not aligned. |
Does such a right even exist? Besides prescription drugs of course.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:35 PM
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We have random photo radar...
Don't speed and no worries..
We have random check stops...
Don't drink and drive and no worries..
Now we will have random drug tests..
Yup,you got it...don't use (illegal drugs) and no worries..
That's the way I see it anyway..
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06-22-2012, 08:38 PM
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Location: On top of sphagetti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJ
We have random photo radar...
Don't speed and no worries..
We have random check stops...
Don't drink and drive and no worries..
Now we will have random drug tests..
Yup,you got it...don't use (illegal drugs) and no worries..
That's the way I see it anyway..
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It's not hard to give up rights in the name of (so called) safety.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
It's not hard to give up rights in the name of (so called) safety.
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When did you (not saying you do) or anyone else have the right to use illegal drugs?
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06-22-2012, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJ
When did you (not saying you do) or anyone else have the right to use illegal drugs?
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Never, but we are supposed to have the right against unreasonable search and seizure.
And it isn't illegal to have drugs in your system, nor does it always indicate that you are impaired.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta
Posts: 24,070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJ
We have random photo radar...
Don't speed and no worries..
We have random check stops...
Don't drink and drive and no worries..
Now we will have random drug tests..
Yup,you got it...don't use (illegal drugs) and no worries..
That's the way I see it anyway..
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I agree 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
It's not hard to give up rights in the name of (so called) safety.
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The 'rights' to speed, drink and drive, do illegal drugs?
There you go again with 'rights'.
No only are your planets not aligned, they crashed into each other in a drunken stoned high rate of speed.
__________________
Only dead fish go with the flow. The rest use their brains in life.
Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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06-22-2012, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
And it isn't illegal to have drugs in your system, nor does it always indicate that you are impaired.
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Tru Dat but in many if not most work places it's a condition of employment is it not?
Don't like the rulz,fine,go work elsewhere..
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06-22-2012, 08:55 PM
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Location: On top of sphagetti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette
I agree 100%
The 'rights' to speed, drink and drive, do illegal drugs?
There you go again with 'rights'.
No only are your planets not aligned, they crashed into each other in a drunken stoned high rate of speed.
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I never said we have the right to do any of those things. We have a right to not be subjected to unreasonable search and seizure. I was talking about the random drug testing. It's not tough to understand what I am saying. You can twist my words to make it sound like I want to be able to drive 200km/h in the city while smoking crack, but that's not the case AT ALL.
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 08:57 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: On top of sphagetti
Posts: 3,565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette
In this entire thread, the most troubling phrase I have read was
'right to use'
Someone's planets are not aligned. |
I didn't realize that you were talking about me with this post until now..
I didn't say that anyone has a "right to use". You aren't reading the posts carefully enough if you think otherwise. I didn't even bring up that phrase! geez
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
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06-22-2012, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta
Posts: 24,070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
I didn't realize that you were talking about me with this post until now..
I didn't say that anyone has a "right to use". You aren't reading the posts carefully enough if you think otherwise. I didn't even bring up that phrase! geez
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Ok, let's go back there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadiantdi
Most incidents cause no harm or loss of life, post incident testing even for minor incidents will weed out many drug users.
Pre-employment works because many drug users will not even apply, and some will still fail.
You conveniently left out the part where I said that people should be tested if there is cause. You see someone impaired? Test them... Smell of booze? Pot? test them... look stoned? you get the idea. You can generally tell if someone is under the influence by talking with and observing someone.
Yes, all bases covered and no ones rights get trampled.
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Only dead fish go with the flow. The rest use their brains in life.
Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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