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01-22-2022, 10:02 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Calgary
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OL_JR
If we cut the allocations for draw tags Alberta outfitters would still have Whitetails, Sheep, Wolves, Black Bear, Elk, Cougar, Game Birds - if I'm missing any feel free to chime in...
Is that so bad?
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Not if you are in one of the zones where all those species tags aren’t general.
Asking an outfitter that question misses the point entirely that this is in some cases their livelihood. Maybe it’s not their primary job but I guarantee you it’s income they depend on. And none of us here would feel respected if some stranger came up to us, took a away our side hustle we’ve built up over years of hard work, and asked “isn’t the other job you work enough?”
Outfitters are just doing what government allows them too. The rhetoric and questions plain and simple should be directed at government to get their ducks in a row, do the 5 yr survey and readjust the quotas. That way outfitters can readjust their business plans and do what any of us would, which is go on making an honest living.
Push to change the regs etc. But don’t expect outfitters to support it. And why should they? No one who works in oil supports any plans or climate initiatives that cut back or kill oil. It’s no different.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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01-22-2022, 10:25 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 1,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_charlie
Not if you are in one of the zones where all those species tags aren’t general.
Asking an outfitter that question misses the point entirely that this is in some cases their livelihood. Maybe it’s not their primary job but I guarantee you it’s income they depend on. And none of us here would feel respected if some stranger came up to us, took a away our side hustle we’ve built up over years of hard work, and asked “isn’t the other job you work enough?”
Outfitters are just doing what government allows them too. The rhetoric and questions plain and simple should be directed at government to get their ducks in a row, do the 5 yr survey and readjust the quotas. That way outfitters can readjust their business plans and do what any of us would, which is go on making an honest living.
Push to change the regs etc. But don’t expect outfitters to support it. And why should they? No one who works in oil supports any plans or climate initiatives that cut back or kill oil. It’s no different.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I wouldn't expect outfitters to support it, lol why would they? I've had this talk around the camp fire with friends that outfit and trust me it's not a pleasant conversation. Frankly I suspect to be a few friends and maybe even some family light over this as time goes on but I believe that changes need to be made. I'll hold my head up high no matter what.
Life is a tough one and trying to make everyone happy and compromise all the time is a sure fire way to ensure nothing actually happens.
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01-23-2022, 04:30 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
For the most part ,I agree but I would really like to know what is meant by the "need and support" thing.
Seems to me the Alberta economy wouldn't even blink if the whole darn works of that industry were elminated. Right now our Big Game hunting opportunities are on a steep decline and will continue to be until they barely exist. Those who are in the Entertainment business of fulfilling hunting opportunities for non-residents in a Province that is experiencing rapid declines in nearly every area, are accelerating this scenario.
Most Outfitters are not totally reliant on their BG Allocations to make a living anyway. I'll bet over 80% of them have other careers that contribute most of thier annual income. To them, Outfitting is simply a glorified hobby, and with many of thier allocations owned by Non resident alien clients
Having said that, eliminating those who currently earn less than 80 % of thier annual income from Outfitting related sources make sense under the existing circumsatances. Plus, it makes it easier for all Residents,including Landowners, (who pay the bills to maintain the resource). Any Allocations, currently owned by Non resident aliens (which are many) should also be eliminated.
Thats the way I've seen it since the 80's and it sure as heck isn't getting any better.
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This is exactly it. I have a neighbor who is a "hobby" outfitter/farmer. He does his best to try and run everyone off the land in the area for his own interests. He tries running people off land aggressively that isn't his either. His family members do the same thing and guess what they happen to have landowner tags as well. As far as I'm concerned this type of outfitter is the worst/ most selfish kind. They seem to have this air of entitlement to them that hunting is for them and no one else. I know neighboring farmers who have landowner tags every year as well and wont let others hunt. Its a flawed system all around. Saskatchewan has it right with exception to the lottery type draw system.
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01-23-2022, 07:12 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OL_JR
If we cut the allocations for draw tags Alberta outfitters would still have Whitetails, Sheep, Wolves, Black Bear, Elk, Cougar, Game Birds - if I'm missing any feel free to chime in...
Is that so bad?
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It would only be bad for those making a living from outfitting those animals I guess, to them it would be very bad.
Moose and Mule Deer are the biggest selling hunts in Alberta besides Sheep. Bears are everywhere and are getting tougher to sell, our whitetails aren’t even close to what they once were and everywhere else is cheaper to hunt and run. There’s 28 cougar allocations total and the US already has 50 times the cat hunting opportunity we do.
Moose and Mule Deer are still in demand because they’re limited everywhere, so yes, that would be very bad to lose those animals
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01-23-2022, 07:15 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop
This is exactly it. I have a neighbor who is a "hobby" outfitter/farmer. He does his best to try and run everyone off the land in the area for his own interests. He tries running people off land aggressively that isn't his either. His family members do the same thing and guess what they happen to have landowner tags as well. As far as I'm concerned this type of outfitter is the worst/ most selfish kind. They seem to have this air of entitlement to them that hunting is for them and no one else. I know neighboring farmers who have landowner tags every year as well and wont let others hunt. Its a flawed system all around. Saskatchewan has it right with exception to the lottery type draw system.
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What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?
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01-23-2022, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?
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I doubt they would do anything, except maybe chat with the outfitter, its your word against theirs unless you have recorded the encounter and can prove the location.
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01-23-2022, 11:14 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushrat
I doubt they would do anything, except maybe chat with the outfitter, its your word against theirs unless you have recorded the encounter and can prove the location.
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Hard to believe in this day and age Outfitters are running around chasing people off land they don’t own and nobody thought to take out a phone and record it.
But I can tell 30 stories about my cousin Ted’s neighbour who’s sister owns land near an outfitter and that guy is a real problem. I don’t know his name but I’ve heard some things. They didn’t tell anybody because it won’t do any good !!!
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01-23-2022, 01:56 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?
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He has been reported in the past. Kind of get discouraged when
Nothing gets done. There are three outfitters in my direct area. One out of three outfits doesn't have a bad wrap. Puts a bad taste in my mouth. I know there are good ones out there as well but once bitten twice shy.
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01-23-2022, 06:12 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Hard to believe in this day and age Outfitters are running around chasing people off land they don’t own and nobody thought to take out a phone and record it.
But I can tell 30 stories about my cousin Ted’s neighbour who’s sister owns land near an outfitter and that guy is a real problem. I don’t know his name but I’ve heard some things. They didn’t tell anybody because it won’t do any good !!!
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Lol. So true.
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01-24-2022, 12:53 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
There should be no non-resident tags for any species that residents have to wait more than 3 years to get drawn for.
Landowner tags should only be non-trophy.
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To those that are concerned about this, please email the environment minister. They are reviewing the regulations as we speak. The emails, the better the chances
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01-24-2022, 01:14 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alberta
Posts: 3,648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
There should be no non-resident tags for any species that residents have to wait more than 3 years to get drawn for.
Landowner tags should only be non-trophy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntwat
To those that are concerned about this,y please email the environment minister. They are reviewing the regulations as we speak. The emails, the better the chances
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Biting the hand that feeds you is not going to end well for anyone.... You are so hung up on the landowner permits you fail to realize any benefit.
Issuing the antlered permits to landowners allows for better management of the species, removing more of the breeding populations actually will INCREASE wait times... So because your have a hate on for these permits you advocate for longer wait times as your jealous or just missing the big picture.
Please tell me what benefit does any Alberta land owner have to increase habitat, allow access to strangers all while paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for these parcels of land ?
Imagine a our province where these landowners don't allow access... A stinky mule deer here and there really isn't a problem, but not having these lands to chase say Antelope, Elk, Moose, Pheasants, Geese, Ducks, ext is not what I want the future generations to be left with.
I can send you some MLS listings where your more than welcome to come aboard and buy some land and see how challenging these people have it.
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01-24-2022, 01:55 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far Enough From The City, AB
Posts: 1,594
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Here's a couple contacts to email if you want your voice to have a better chance to be heard on the upcoming outfitter allocations review(that expired in 2017).
More opportunities for residents in the future won't be possible unless the government is held accountable for enforcing the 10% maximum on outfitter allocations. As can be seen from the info in this thread, this definitely isn't happening in a lot of WMU's currently.
Don't be afraid to voice your opinion/frustration in your emails on the outfitter allocations review being 5 years overdue either....
Jason Nixon
Minister Of Environment And Parks
Rimbey.RockyMountainhouse.Sundre@assembly.ab.ca
Kim Morton
Manager, Provincial Wildlife Policy
Kim.Morton@gov.ab.ca
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"Better To Be Judged By 12, Then Buried By Six"
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05-30-2024, 11:32 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far Enough From The City, AB
Posts: 1,594
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Resurrecting this thread.
With all the posts about reduced resident tag #'s and opportunities, I thought I'd share some information that I received recently when I followed up with a government contact about an outfitter allocations update.
See below.
-Has the 5 year outfitter allocations review that expired in 2017 been finalized and renewed?
If so can you let me know where the new agreement is located to take a look at?
The process to review and adjust allocations is still in progress, with a process to still be identified.
-Has the extra “Covid relief” allocations given to outfitters for the 2021 to 2023 hunting seasons been removed for the upcoming 2024 season now that Covid issues for travel have been resolved?
All deferral allocations provided to outfitters as a COVID relief concession are set to expire by 2027, as per the agreement made with outfitters when they were provided.
-Have the Species Management Areas(SMA’s) for calculating the 10% maximum outfitter allocations requirement been changed to WMU’s as was brought up by many resident hunters previously?
No. Any discussion related to SMAs vs WMUs will be part of the discussions in the process ongoing related to your first question.
So the extra tags given during Covid to outfitters wasn't on a per season basis but was an agreement made until 2027?
The outfitters have now been operating off a 5 year agreement that expired in 2017 while many resident tags and opportunities have been reduced yearly?
I find it very interesting that the stakeholders involved to get the new 5 year Outfitter Allocation agreement approved have not been able to finalize it in nearly 7 years?
https://open.alberta.ca/publications...hunting-season
I've included a link above for the 2024 moose allocations as an example.
The "Outfitter w/ Mitigation" columns will be the "Covid" tags outfitters will get this season(and until 2027) on top of their regular tags for a pandemic that has been pretty non-existent for the last while.
Check your species and WMU you hunt as some of these "mitigation" tag #'s issued are substantial to the total tags given this year.
See post #19 on some of my previous questions and info on this subject as well.
Feel free to share your thoughts or add any info you may have on this subject, thanks.
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"Better To Be Judged By 12, Then Buried By Six"
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05-30-2024, 11:52 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,099
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Thanks for the info, 7mag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7magtime
Feel free to share your thoughts
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I am fairly certain most share the same thoughts on the subject as I do or worse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinstuff
.......
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05-30-2024, 01:22 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 744
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Information on hunting allocations for 2024 season is posted here as well and seems to be a little easier to navigate https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/hun...locations.aspx
It does appear that resident mule deer allocations were pulled back fairly substantially in the southern half of the province (this may be consistent with the northern half as far as reduction to resident hunter allocations, however I do not hunt there so do not watch allocations closely).
I do agree with cutting back the tag numbers with the intent of improving the trophy quality as the high tag numbers do not seem to have been successful in eliminating/reducing spread of CWD, however there has been no corresponding reduction in outfitting tags. Now several zones in southern half of the province have between 25-50% of total available antlered mule deer tags for outfitters.
DR
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05-30-2024, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRhunter
Information on hunting allocations for 2024 season is posted here as well and seems to be a little easier to navigate https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/hun...locations.aspx
It does appear that resident mule deer allocations were pulled back fairly substantially in the southern half of the province (this may be consistent with the northern half as far as reduction to resident hunter allocations, however I do not hunt there so do not watch allocations closely).
I do agree with cutting back the tag numbers with the intent of improving the trophy quality as the high tag numbers do not seem to have been successful in eliminating/reducing spread of CWD, however there has been no corresponding reduction in outfitting tags. Now several zones in southern half of the province have between 25-50% of total available antlered mule deer tags for outfitters.
DR
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I dont like to see that. I may not draw my tag this year now because there will be point creep lolol
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05-30-2024, 06:23 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Alberta
Posts: 598
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2023 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 130 double tags
2024 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 39 tags
Does this look like science? Does anybody @ F&W know what's going on?
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05-30-2024, 07:06 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trapperdodge
2023 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 130 double tags
2024 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 39 tags
Does this look like science? Does anybody @ F&W know what's going on?
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I was in that area on a guided pronghorn hunt last fall and from talking with the guides whitetail numbers are way down. These were guys who have lived, hunted, farmed in the area their whole life so likely have a decent grasp on numbers. Same story on mule deer
F&W was trying to knock down deer numbers do to CDW and succeeded. Hunters and guides have been complaining about the decline in many areas so the cut back in tags is likely the result
I was planning on pulling my mule deer tag this year but may fall short but I would rather see the cut back of harvest and wait a little longer
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05-30-2024, 07:56 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Alberta
Posts: 598
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The landowners would have first hand knowledge of the deer numbers.
My question is directed to the professionals at F&W. Did they have reliable population numbers? When you go in one year from 130 double tags down to 39 it begs the question.
CWD succeeded not F&W management.
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05-30-2024, 08:22 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: AB
Posts: 6,661
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Im happy too see the numbers finally cut back...its going to take years in alot of wmu's for trophy bucks and deer population to return to decent levels.
In regards to the 5 year review of outfitter allocations nothing will change if they dont actually have a sit down and "review" it and my guess is interested partys know a change will come once things are actually "reviewed" so thats why this review aint happening...probably will wait until game numbers drastically increase then all the sudden its "review" time...lol
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05-31-2024, 06:58 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: YEG
Posts: 735
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Also posted this in the thread about 406. The annual survey reports are here. Looks like very few surveys were done in the 100s in the past three years and none in the 200s so it doesn’t appear recent survey data is the reason. The last year of any real survey effort in the south was 2021.
https://www.alberta.ca/aerial-wildli...ts#jumplinks-1
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06-02-2024, 02:33 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Airdrie
Posts: 2,410
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It’s good if they are cutting back tag numbers, I hunt 202 and the mulie numbers were abysmal (10-20% of historical numbers) and I didn’t see any bucks over 3 1/2 years old. The combination of cwd and management has almost collapsed the mulie population, it was terrible to see, I didn’t shoot any and encouraged others to do the same.
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06-26-2024, 03:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
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Government and APOS are in bed together. what else do you expect?
Hawk Tuah game is strong between the minister and the gang.
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06-26-2024, 06:07 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingAlberta
Government and APOS are in bed together. what else do you expect?
Hawk Tuah game is strong between the minister and the gang.
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More than anything the APOS is more dedicated to lobbying the government and representing outfitters with a stronger voice so they are getting heard. Outfitters are investing more effort and funds into their position
It should be no surprise residents are falling short when we are relying on volunteers that are lacking support, less funds being brought froward by resident hunters, lack of new blood and lack of man power. A portion of those representing residents are worn out and are only staying in their position because the lack of a replacement
Call it what you please but more than anything it better representation, support for their representation, and funding that is giving the APOS a leg up
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06-26-2024, 07:10 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,559
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Who are these residents and who are they representing?
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06-27-2024, 06:16 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubious
Who are these residents and who are they representing?
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AFGA and even ABA are who the government acknowledges as representing the interests of resident hunters. There is still surveys used to an extent too
This is why a lack of support and time involved in hunting organizations have a negative effect. It is theses groups where proposed changes come from regarding resident hunters and when opposition is brought forward it is acknowledged at a much higher level than a single resident hunter do to membership numbers they are supposed to be representing
You will find it’s a similar situation across North America just different organizations
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06-27-2024, 07:06 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoky buck
AFGA and even ABA are who the government acknowledges as representing the interests of resident hunters. There is still surveys used to an extent too
This is why a lack of support and time involved in hunting organizations have a negative effect. It is theses groups where proposed changes come from regarding resident hunters and when opposition is brought forward it is acknowledged at a much higher level than a single resident hunter do to membership numbers they are supposed to be representing
You will find it’s a similar situation across North America just different organizations
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Thanks I needed a laugh. Maybe they need to plan more kids themed family camp outs and do more infighting before more residents take them seriously.
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06-27-2024, 08:08 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubious
Thanks I needed a laugh. Maybe they need to plan more kids themed family camp outs and do more infighting before more residents take them seriously.
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Oh I see the issues plain as day and it’s pretty clear why we as residents are not seeing the same results as the APOS is achieving. I get the frustration too but that is who is being acknowledged not us complaining on AO
But like it or not that is who is being listened to. So even though there is many residents not happy how they are handling things and not supporting these groups that is your representation. There is not an alternative at this time.
I understand why hunters don’t get involved or choose not to give support the AGFA. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of resident hunters concerns not being represented and a lack on manpower/input when it comes to resident hunters representation
Sucks but if resident hunters have two choices if they want to change the results of how they are represented. Either join/support the AGFA getting involved pushing the organization in the direction that best represents Alberta resident hunters views or create/support a new organization to represent residents views. The last option is a very long process and without a ton of support goes nowhere
As individuals Alberta resident hunters are not going to be heard and will continue to fall short. The APOS will continue to have a stronger voice and the governments ear.
I just look at why we are in the situation and options to change the situation for hunters. That fact of the matter in simple terms there needs stronger organized representation backed by resident hunters being more involved. I could careless what label or flag is used to accomplish it personally
Laughing isn’t changing what is taking place or how you a represented. Pretty clear being frustrated on social media and between other hunters isn’t working either
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06-27-2024, 08:40 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubious
Thanks I needed a laugh. Maybe they need to plan more kids themed family camp outs and do more infighting before more residents take them seriously.
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Dubious,
I am curious which organizations you are involved in promoting conservation and youth involvement in hunting and angling activities?
I am involved in AFGA and although certainly not perfect (no organization is), I see every day the number of people who like to offer all of their "Advice" and put in zero effort to volunteer their time. These people are often the first to complain about all of the issues facing hunters and anglers and offer none of their time to help make these changes.
DR
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06-27-2024, 10:17 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 276
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Go buy a quarter and hunt mulies every year, you want a simple solution there it is.
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