People ask "Why Carry a Gun?"

[cranky]

Originally Posted by elkoholik

Why move to the US, we have more than enough in Montreal, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver. I am sorry to say but we do have our share of "SHOOT OUTS" in Canada. I am wondering if you have ever been to the US or just watch the propaganda media on TV as I have worked through out the US for the past 8 years and have never seen a shoot out, feel safe in most areas as I do in Canada, feel uncomfortable/unsafe in areas as I do in Canada. I also have spent most of my time working and going out in areas where people can carry (Texas, Wyoming, Mississipi, etc) and have seen many altercations including drunken people outside of a bar and have never seen anyone pull a gun to end the situation. I think everyone who believes by having the RIGHT to be ISSUED a CCW permit will some how make this world a crazy wild west shoot out had better give their head a shake and see reality for what it truly is not a media portrayed version of what the government and big business want us to believe it is.

Funny i was going to post the same comments quite a bit earlier. Ive spent almost as much of my life Stateside as here being as im a trucker. Over half my personal friends are American and 2/3 carry. None have ever shown off there guns to me nor have any of them ever needed to draw it out. Its just a normal thing to carry with them. They all say that they tend to walk away from trouble because its such a large responsibility to carry,and people can get hurt.
None of them chew tobacco and there knuckles are'nt overly extended for there body size either. And only one lives in a mobile home re: some unkind comments made earlier on in this thread by someone i thought was not the type to slag people like that.

[uglyelk]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

If you want to carry a gun on the trap line to protect yourself from bears and cougars (animals not the women)...then by all means. If you carry your gun into downtown Calgary I want you charged and your gun confiscated until you say sorry.

Well that's makes no sense. Hardly anyone gets chewed up by cats and bears, a schit load more folks get robbed murdered and assaulted each year. You got your head screwed on backwards. give your head a shake maybe you can get your brain to start ticking again. Why you okay with bear protection and not criminal protection?

[Nester]

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by uglyelk

Well that's makes no sense. Hardly anyone gets chewed up by cats and bears, a schit load more folks get robbed murdered and assaulted each year. You got your head screwed on backwards. give your head a shake maybe you can get your brain to start ticking again. Why you okay with bear protection and not criminal protection?

LOL

So you say walking around your neighborhood is more dangerous than walking a trapline. Good on you. I guess you are safe everywhere then. No worries.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just another one of your unproven theories.You seem anxious to blindly accept any data that supports your view, but you are quick to dismiss any data that contradicts your viewpoint.





I added in some information from footnote 17 that you conveniently forgot to mention.



but not other violent crime indicates that the statement only applies to burglaries.

So having a gun in the home does not stop burglaries... That was the point. Thanks for confirming you understand that.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

LOL

So you say walking around your neighborhood is more dangerous than walking a trapline. Good on you. I guess you are safe everywhere then. No worries.

there is no duot that walking in a neighborhood is more dangerous than walking a trap line.you very rarely see a cop out when your checking traps but it seems the nicer the neighborhood the more cops you see there and you still have not figured out that trappers for the most part don't need a hand gun for self protection but more for demise of what they have in there traps.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

if they do there full sentence there not supose to have any restrictions as there debt to society is supose to be paid.

A judge can still put on a ten year restriction on fire arm ownership.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by silver

A judge can still put on a ten year restriction on fire arm ownership.

at the time of sentecing I'm quite sure the judge cuold add that to his sentance, but after serving his full time I dout that they could add that on but maybe.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Problem with your line of thinking is that you can not factor in the influences that gave rise to some language...like in the second amendment to the US Constitution versus where we are today.

The amendment was done because the US had no way to defend itself, no army, no navy etc. Now they have a well trained army and navy. No militia is required unless you take a fanatical view point...like MOM... Militia of Montana. They are a very interesting bunch. Those looking to over throw the US government make a lot of noise...and demand to remain armed...question is...will they snap or work within the system.

So for now... it you quote legal precedent from the 1700's...can you at least draw a conceptional argument while it still applies today. Such as another law from the past...making it a crime to live with a woman out of wed lock.

Same principle.

Cheers

Sun

Sundance, I am still trying to figure you out. You bring up the point about language, and it is a good one. The american constitution talks of a well regulated militia. In this day and age, well regulated means properly controlled and ruled by legislation. At the time it was written, well regulated refered to shooting ability. Should you have any doubts about this, think about the phrase... regulating the barrels on a double... it refers to being able to hit ones target. And then you wander off speaking about Montana militia and then to living commonlaw. You are difficult to take seriously.

[elkhunter11]

So having a gun in the home does not stop burglaries... That was the point. Thanks for confirming you understand that.

That if if we assume that the person that made that statement is correct, and that is a huge assumption .And even if it is correct, having a gun might not stop the break & enter or the attempted burglary, but it could save your life if the burglar decides to become violent, just as happened to Barb Danelesko.

but not other violent crime

Some of those violent crimes, could be battery,rape or murder, any of those three crimes concern me more than simple burglary.

[NUK SOO KOW]

I feel that if someone who wishes to carry should be able to. Its their choice to do so. I do think they should have to do extensive background checks, a personality test, and have to qualify firearms training every year as the law enforcement does. Everyone says call the police to protect you. Ha!! Think of the variables. A lot can happen in the minutes before the police arrive. Also what if an individual has no access to a phone and is in trouble? I am not saying that just because a person carries they are going to be impervious to harm from a criminal. People should be allowed to protect themselves and others. Whether they choose to carry pepperspray, knife, learn hand to hand fighting skills, or carry a gun. It should be up to the individual. It should be a god given right for people to protect themselves however they feel they need to do it.

Awhile back my neighbor called me up, scared, that her drunk ex has been banging on her door for 20 minutes. She said she called the police 15 minutes ago, and they havn't showed up. I went over, and was able to get him to leave without conflict. I would say it was about at least 5-10 minutes after that, or a little over a half hour til the police got there. Now think, alot could have happened in that time. He could have smashed the door in and did bad things. What if she wasnt able to reach me or anyone else for help? I am not knocking the police, they are out there everyday putting their lives on the line for people(bless them). But they are never around at the exact time you need them. Sometimes seconds count. And person should be able to do what they need to keep themselves from harm. Up to and including owning/using/carrying a firearm.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That if if we assume that the person that made that statement is correct, and that is a huge assumption .And even if it is correct, having a gun might not stop the break & enter or the attempted burglary, but it could save your life if the burglar decides to become violent, just as happened to Barb Danelesko.



Some of those violent crimes, could be battery,rape or murder, any of those three crimes concern me more than simple burglary.

A lot of big what ifs...

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campa...oncealed-carry

"The National Rifle Association (NRA) frequently claims that concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding citizens in America. While this is likely true in many cases, it has become apparent that the screening process in most states does little or nothing to stop dangerous individuals from obtaining permits to carry concealed handguns.

In 2009, for example, there were six confirmed mass shootings (defined as three or more deaths) by concealed carry permit holders, including the Fort Hood shooting by Nidal Malik Hasan and the killing of three policemen by Neo-Nazi Richard Poplawski in Pittsburgh.

Currently 34 states have "Shall-Issue" laws that require law enforcement officials to approve permits for any applicant who passes a basic computerized background check through the FBI's NICS database (which is missing millions of disqualifying records). Individuals with misdemeanor criminal convictions, DUI offenses, past domestic abuse restraining orders, and histories of voluntary commitment to psychiatric instituitions can and do obtain permits legally. Training requirements—if there are any for permit holders—are no more rigorous than a single day-class in instruction.

Despite these problems with the screening process, the NRA is currently pushing to allow the carrying of concealed handguns in public spaces across America—including schools, churches, parks, airports, metro transport, restaurants, and bars.

The gun lobby has also frequently suggested that carrying a concealed handgun in public is a constitutional "right." However, the Supreme Court was clear on this issue in their decision in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller. "The Second Amendment right is not unlimited," wrote Justice Antonin Scalia. "It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. "



I will tell you one thing...if you pull a gun in a situation...you better be prepared to shoot anyone else with a gun...regardless of the situation for once you get involved it will be shoot or get shot...and not by the bad guy but by all heros looking to end the battle. No one will know who is who. So while the heros exchange gun fire...the bad guy slips away.


http://wvgazette.com/Opinion/Editorials/201109071010

September 7, 2011
Editorial, Sept. 8, 2011: What's the cure for gun deaths?

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A troubled young Morgantown man, barely beyond teen age, used two rifles and a pistol in a stunning murder rampage Tuesday. After writing weirdo notes on Facebook, he killed five at a farmhouse near Morgantown, then wounded a service station worker in Roane County, then killed himself in Kentucky.

His bloodbath was just one of several gun killings in Wednesday's news. On the same day, a pistol-carrier pleaded self-defense after gunning down two St. Albans men -- and police said they've found clues regarding a Charleston woman who was murdered outside a West Side nightclub.

Nationally, a Nevada man with an AK-47 got out of a vehicle bearing a "Support Our Troops" sticker, entered an IHOP restaurant, massacred a group of National Guard members in uniform, then shot himself in the head. And New York City suffered 67 shootings during the Labor Day weekend.

After two New York officers were wounded in one of the gunfights, Mayor Michael Bloomberg complained bitterly that national politicians lack enough "courage" to take steps against America's gun insanity.

That's certainly true. Nearly all politicians fear the powerful right-to-bear-arms lobby, so they pretend not to notice that America leads the world in gun killings. U.S. gun murders at home are worse than all of America's casualty tolls in wars.

In January's issue of the Journal of Trauma, researchers compared gun death rates in 23 advanced nations. They found that America's toll was astoundingly worse than the rest of the world's. The report concluded:

"Among these 23 countries, 80 percent of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86 percent of women killed by firearms were U.S. women, and 87 percent of children aged zero to 14 killed by firearms were U.S. children."

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence says: "Over a million people have been killed with guns in the United States since 1968, when Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated." Wars never caused so many casualties during such a timespan.

The Brady group -- named for President Reagan's aide who was shot in the head during an assassination attempt -- says an average of 97,820 Americans are killed or wounded by guns each year, and all resulting costs total around $100 billion annually.

But timid politicians never take any action -- and rarely acknowledge this terrible toll.

Gun-control laws have little effect, because America is saturated with hundreds of millions of weapons, so any sicko or criminal easily can be armed, ignoring laws. The gun lobby's only remedy is for everyone, from schoolchildren to church worshipers, to carry loaded pistols so they can shoot back at killers. That proposal is grotesque beyond belief.

Thus America remains the gun murder capital of the world. If anyone knows a cure, we're eager to hear it.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by silver

Sundance, I am still trying to figure you out. You bring up the point about language, and it is a good one. The american constitution talks of a well regulated militia. In this day and age, well regulated means properly controlled and ruled by legislation. At the time it was written, well regulated refered to shooting ability. Should you have any doubts about this, think about the phrase... regulating the barrels on a double... it refers to being able to hit ones target. And then you wander off speaking about Montana militia and then to living commonlaw. You are difficult to take seriously.

The topic is jumping around a lot. Just trying to address a bit about everyone.

On the topic of the second amendment...do you think it was addressing the protection of the state or the right for someone to own guns?

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campa...-show-loophole

To date, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) has prevented nearly 1.8 million criminals and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. The law also has a deterrent effect—prohibited purchasers are less likely to try to buy guns when they know comprehensive background check requirements are in place.

Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.

Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the “private sales” described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.

scary!!!!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...an-gangs_n.htm

Our view: Gun lobby aids Mexican gangs
Updated 8/10/2011 11:57 AM

Martin Johnson had a nice little business going in 2008 and 2009. He'd leave home in California and buy dozens of guns in Arizona, where the gun laws are much looser, using an Arizona driver's license to pretend that he still lived there. Back in California, Johnson sold the guns to his neighbor, a convicted felon who couldn't legally buy guns at all. The neighbor sold some of the guns to his buddies, none of whom was a legal buyer, either.

Federal agents caught on, thanks to a 1975 regulation designed to flag straw buyers like Johnson. Stores must report when anyone buys two or more handguns within five days.

Now the Obama administration is expanding the regulation to require gun stores in the four states along the Mexican border — California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas — to begin reporting multiple sales of certain military style rifles, including AK-47s and AR-15s. These assault weapons are prized by drug cartels in Mexico, where tens of thousands of firearms, illegal to buy in Mexico, have been smuggled from the U.S., fueling the horrific violence that has killed some 40,000 people in the past five years.

This is a perfectly sensible idea, but predictably, the National Rifle Association and its congressional allies are trying to kill the new rule, which goes into effect on Sunday. The NRA, which filed suit last week to block the rule, charges that it is another sinister move by administration officials to "pursue their gun control agenda."

Oh, please. Even minimal gun regulation, such as closing the infamous gun show loophole or cracking down on rogue gun dealers, is low on Democrats' agendas these days. This new rule is just a common-sense step to address an obvious problem.

Protests against the regulation are hollow. An onerous burden for gun stores? Dealers have been filing reports on multiple sales of handguns for 36 years, and they know how to do it with little fuss.

An intrusion on the rights of law-abiding gun buyers? Enthusiasts who regularly purchase multiple guns report they've never been visited by federal agents, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) stays plenty busy with real targets, such as unemployed young buyers who spend thousands of dollars to buy dozens of copies of the same gun.

The NRA questions whether the U.S. is the source of drug cartels' guns, but some of the best proof that guns are moving from U.S. stores to Mexico is a botched ATF operation the NRA loudly criticized. "Fast and Furious" was designed to catch not just straw buyers but the drug cartel higher-ups employing them. The agency failed to track roughly 2,000 guns it knew were being bought illegally, and many of them ended up in Mexico — including two at the scene of a shootout where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed.

There's no excuse for the bungling that let Fast and Furious spiral out of control. But that shouldn't give the agency's critics a license to ignore the hard, dangerous work federal agents do every day to try to keep guns out of the hands of people who the law says cannot have them.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As has already been posted, many innocent people have been murdered. Of course you tried to deflect my post to avoid a direct response, because you know that this is true.

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campa...olders-in-2009

Mass Shootings by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders in 2009

The gun lobby frequently claims that concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding citizens in the Unites States. This might be true in many cases, but it has become apparent that the screening process in most states does little or nothing to stop dangerous individuals from obtaining permits to carry concealed handguns.

There were six confirmed mass shootings by concealed handgun permit holders in 2009 (mass shootings are shootings that involve three or more deaths):

1) Frank Garcia
On Valentine’s Day, 35 year-old Frank Garcia drove into the parking lot of the Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in Brockport, New York, at approximately 5:00 AM. Just four days earlier, he had been fired from his nursing position at the hospital. Garcia spotted Mary Silliman, 23, a former co-worker who was on a break, and physically attacked her. Two individuals who were driving by the hospital at that moment, Randal Norman and Audra Dillion, saw Garcia beating Silliman and stopped to help. When they got out of their car, Garcia opened fire with a .40-caliber Glock pistol, killing Norman and Silliman. Dillion was also shot, but survived her injuries. Garcia then drove 50 miles to Canandaigua, New York, where he went to the home of another former co-worker. There, he shot Kimberly Glatz and her husband Christopher execution-style in front of their 14 year-old daughter and 13 year-old son.

Garcia possessed a permit to carry a concealed handgun in New York. State officials denied his request for a permit three times before granting him one in 2007.

2) Michael McClendon
On March 10, 28 year-old Michael McLendon began a shooting rampage at the house in Coffee County, Alabama, where he lived with his mother. First, he shot and killed her and her four dogs, then laid them around the living room couch, which he soaked with paint thinner and lit on fire. McLendon then got into his car wearing a vest loaded with ammunition and armed with a .38 caliber handgun, a shotgun, and two assault rifles (an SKS and a Bushmaster). He drove to another house where he had lived with his uncle and aunt, James and Phyllis White. The two were sitting on the porch with their daughter, Tracy M. Wise, 34, her son, Dean, 15, and a family that lived across the street: Andrea Myers, 31 (the wife of a local sheriff’s deputy), and her two children, 4-month old Ella and 18-month old Corrine. McLendon’s great aunt, Virginia White, 74, was in a trailer parked in the White’s yard. McLendon exited his vehicle and opened fire on them all, killing everyone but Phyllis White and Ella Myers.

McClendon then killed another man, James Starling, 24, on a nearby street, shooting him in the back as he tried to run away. Rounding the corner, he shot and killed Sonya Smith, 43, outside a convenience store. Two men, Jeffrey Nelson, 50, and Greg McCullough, 49, were shot and injured at the store. McLendon continued on to the town of Geneva with the police were in pursuit. Still spraying fire, he killed motorist Bruce Malloy, 51. The chase ended at Reliable Products, a metals plant where McClendon had once worked. There he engaged in a shootout with law enforcement officers before entering the business, turning a gun on himself, and taking his own life.

During the entire rampage, which lasted approximately 50 minutes, McLendon fired more than 200 rounds, killed 10 innocent people, and wounded six.

McLendon held a permit to carry a concealed handgun which had been issued by the Coffee County Sheriff’s Department.

3) Richard Poplawski
On April 4, 23 year-old Richard Poplawski shot and killed three police officers who were responding to a 911 call at his home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Poplawski, wearing a bulletproof vest and armed with a shotgun and an AK-47-style assault rifle, ambushed two officers who entered his house. He then managed to hold off police and SWAT team members who responded to the scene for four hours, firing approximately 100 rounds in the process. Poplawski has been charged with three counts of criminal homicide and nine counts of attempted homicide, including the wounding of a policeman who was trying to assist a fallen officer.

POPLAWSKIPoplawski is a White Supremacist with a long and disturbing history of violent behavior. He frequently visited, and posted messages at, the Neo-Nazi website Stormfront.org. Poplawski’s best friend, Edward Perkovic, stated that he “didn't like the Zionists controlling the media and controlling, you know, our freedom of speech.” On November 1, 2008, Poplawski wrote on Stormfront: “A revolutionary is always regarded as a nutcase at first, their ideas dismissed as fantasy ... If a total collapse is what it takes to wake our brethren and guarantee future generations of white children walk this continent, if that is what it takes to restore our freedoms and recapture our land: let it begin this very second and not a moment later.”

Perkovic also reported that Poplawski possessed a permit to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Pennsylvania. "I've seen it. He showed it to me. He said, 'Eddie, get one of these,'" remembers Perkovic. Poplawski also posted on the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners website under the username “RWhiteman” and in one thread complained that the state of Maryland did not recognize his concealed carry permit when he traveled there.

4) George Sodini
On August 4, George Sodini , 48, walked into the LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania, wearing workout gear. In his pocket was a .32 semiautomatic handgun. He carried a duffel bag with three more handguns: two 9mm semiautomatic pistols with 30-round clips and a .45 caliber revolver. All told, he was carrying 150 rounds of ammunition. Sodini entered an exercise room where an aerobics class was taking place, turned off the lights, and opened fire, emptying one of the 9mm pistols. He then drew the second 9mm pistol and continued firing. In his last act, Sodini drew the .45 revolver and shot himself in the head. When the smoke cleared, at least 36 rounds had been fired and three women lay dead. Nine other women were wounded in the shooting.

Within minutes of the tragedy becoming national news, a journal that Sodini had posted online was discovered. In it, Sodini provided his name, date of birth, and hometown—and in a series of entries dating back to November 2008 detailed his plans to commit mass murder.

Sodini held a permit to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Pennsylvania.

5) Nidal Malik Hasan
On November 5, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, a licensed Army psychiatrist, walked into the Soldier Readiness Processing Center on Fort Hood military base in Killeen, Texas. After yelling “Allahu akbar,” Hasan, 39, opened fired with a FN Herstal Five-seveN semiautomatic handgun, killing 13 people (12 of them Soldiers) and wounding 34 others before he was shot by military police. Hasan sustained multiple injuries but survived. He will face 13 charges of premeditated murder in a military court. The shooting ranks as the nation's worst ever on a military installation.

Hasan had openly opposed America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and espoused extremist Islamic views. He was being monitored by the FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force because of emails he had exchanged with the radical imam Anwar al-Awlaki. The FBI was also investigating whether he was behind violent anti-American comments left on a website under the screen name of "NidalHasan." On two separate occasions, officials from Walter Reed and the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences met and expressed concern about Hasan's behavior, which fellow students and faculty had described as "disconnected, aloof, paranoid, belligerent and schizoid."

In March 1996, Hasan obtained a concealed handgun permit in Roanoke County, Virginia, where he lived at the time. The permit was renewed in February 1998. The application for his original permit can be viewed here.

6) Paul Michael Merhige
On Thanksgiving Day, Paul Michael Merhige, 35, sat through three hours of dinner and sing-a-longs with his family in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, before opening fire with a handgun. He shot six family members and killed four: his twin sisters, one of whom was pregnant; a 79 year-old aunt; and his six year-old cousin, Makalya Sitton, who was shot as she lay in bed. As he fired, witnesses heard Merhige say, "I have been waiting 20 years for this."

Merhige bought three guns—two pistols and a semiautomatic rifle—at a South Florida gun shop the day before the shooting. The owner of the shop reported that Merhige had a concealed handgun permit.

In 2006, Merhige's sister Carla (who was killed in the shooting) requested a restraining order against him after he threatened to kill her and himself. She eventually withdrew the request. The U.S. Marshal's Service released a psychological profile of Merhige that indicates he has a history of mental illness and has taken the following medications: Seroquel, an antipsychotic prescribed for bipolar disorder, depression and schizophrenia; Ativan, an anti-anxiety medication; and Atenolol, a beta-blocker used to treat angina and hypertension. Merhige's father said his son once attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest.

Merhige escaped detection by law enforcement authorities after the murders and is currently a fugitive from justice. He faces four counts of first degree murder and two of attempted murder.


Additionally, terrorist suspect Anes Subasic was able to obtain a concealed handgun permit in his home state of North Carolina. On September 25, authorities apprehended 33-year-old Subasic after a nine-hour search of his home in Holly Springs. Subasic is a Muslim who fled Bosnia during its civil war (later becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen). Along with six others, Subasic was charged with planning violent overseas operations and an attack on the Marine Corps base in Quantico, Virginia.
anes subasic
The Bosnian Serb Republic courts had issued four warrants for Subasic’s arrest, one of which was international. An official with the Bosnian Serb police stated that Subasic “is known to be part of a criminal gang that operated in the wider area of Bosnia and the region.” All told, Bosnian Serb police charged Subasic 11 times on 16 counts of attempted murder, extortion and robbery. A waitress in Banja Luka recalled Subasic entering a restaurant and spraying fire randomly with an automatic weapon. “Whoever knows Anes, they are not surprised [by his recent arrest],” she said.

[elkhunter11]

1) Frank Garcia
On Valentine’s Day, 35 year-old Frank Garcia drove into the parking lot of the Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in Brockport, New York, at approximately 5:00 AM. Just four days earlier, he had been fired from his nursing position at the hospital. Garcia spotted Mary Silliman, 23, a former co-worker who was on a break, and physically attacked her. Two individuals who were driving by the hospital at that moment, Randal Norman and Audra Dillion, saw Garcia beating Silliman and stopped to help. When they got out of their car, Garcia opened fire with a .40-caliber Glock pistol, killing Norman and Silliman. Dillion was also shot, but survived her injuries. Garcia then drove 50 miles to Canandaigua, New York, where he went to the home of another former co-worker. There, he shot Kimberly Glatz and her husband Christopher execution-style in front of their 14 year-old daughter and 13 year-old son.

Garcia possessed a permit to carry a concealed handgun in New York. State officials denied his request for a permit three times before granting him one in 2007.

2) Michael McClendon
On March 10, 28 year-old Michael McLendon began a shooting rampage at the house in Coffee County, Alabama, where he lived with his mother. First, he shot and killed her and her four dogs, then laid them around the living room couch, which he soaked with paint thinner and lit on fire. McLendon then got into his car wearing a vest loaded with ammunition and armed with a .38 caliber handgun, a shotgun, and two assault rifles (an SKS and a Bushmaster). He drove to another house where he had lived with his uncle and aunt, James and Phyllis White. The two were sitting on the porch with their daughter, Tracy M. Wise, 34, her son, Dean, 15, and a family that lived across the street: Andrea Myers, 31 (the wife of a local sheriff’s deputy), and her two children, 4-month old Ella and 18-month old Corrine. McLendon’s great aunt, Virginia White, 74, was in a trailer parked in the White’s yard. McLendon exited his vehicle and opened fire on them all, killing everyone but Phyllis White and Ella Myers.

McClendon then killed another man, James Starling, 24, on a nearby street, shooting him in the back as he tried to run away. Rounding the corner, he shot and killed Sonya Smith, 43, outside a convenience store. Two men, Jeffrey Nelson, 50, and Greg McCullough, 49, were shot and injured at the store. McLendon continued on to the town of Geneva with the police were in pursuit. Still spraying fire, he killed motorist Bruce Malloy, 51. The chase ended at Reliable Products, a metals plant where McClendon had once worked. There he engaged in a shootout with law enforcement officers before entering the business, turning a gun on himself, and taking his own life.

During the entire rampage, which lasted approximately 50 minutes, McLendon fired more than 200 rounds, killed 10 innocent people, and wounded six.

McLendon held a permit to carry a concealed handgun which had been issued by the Coffee County Sheriff’s Department.

3) Richard Poplawski
On April 4, 23 year-old Richard Poplawski shot and killed three police officers who were responding to a 911 call at his home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Poplawski, wearing a bulletproof vest and armed with a shotgun and an AK-47-style assault rifle, ambushed two officers who entered his house. He then managed to hold off police and SWAT team members who responded to the scene for four hours, firing approximately 100 rounds in the process. Poplawski has been charged with three counts of criminal homicide and nine counts of attempted homicide, including the wounding of a policeman who was trying to assist a fallen officer.

POPLAWSKIPoplawski is a White Supremacist with a long and disturbing history of violent behavior. He frequently visited, and posted messages at, the Neo-Nazi website Stormfront.org. Poplawski’s best friend, Edward Perkovic, stated that he “didn't like the Zionists controlling the media and controlling, you know, our freedom of speech.” On November 1, 2008, Poplawski wrote on Stormfront: “A revolutionary is always regarded as a nutcase at first, their ideas dismissed as fantasy ... If a total collapse is what it takes to wake our brethren and guarantee future generations of white children walk this continent, if that is what it takes to restore our freedoms and recapture our land: let it begin this very second and not a moment later.”

Perkovic also reported that Poplawski possessed a permit to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Pennsylvania. "I've seen it. He showed it to me. He said, 'Eddie, get one of these,'" remembers Perkovic. Poplawski also posted on the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners website under the username “RWhiteman” and in one thread complained that the state of Maryland did not recognize his concealed carry permit when he traveled there.

4) George Sodini
On August 4, George Sodini , 48, walked into the LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania, wearing workout gear. In his pocket was a .32 semiautomatic handgun. He carried a duffel bag with three more handguns: two 9mm semiautomatic pistols with 30-round clips and a .45 caliber revolver. All told, he was carrying 150 rounds of ammunition. Sodini entered an exercise room where an aerobics class was taking place, turned off the lights, and opened fire, emptying one of the 9mm pistols. He then drew the second 9mm pistol and continued firing. In his last act, Sodini drew the .45 revolver and shot himself in the head. When the smoke cleared, at least 36 rounds had been fired and three women lay dead. Nine other women were wounded in the shooting.

Within minutes of the tragedy becoming national news, a journal that Sodini had posted online was discovered. In it, Sodini provided his name, date of birth, and hometown—and in a series of entries dating back to November 2008 detailed his plans to commit mass murder.

Sodini held a permit to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Pennsylvania.

5) Nidal Malik Hasan
On November 5, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, a licensed Army psychiatrist, walked into the Soldier Readiness Processing Center on Fort Hood military base in Killeen, Texas. After yelling “Allahu akbar,” Hasan, 39, opened fired with a FN Herstal Five-seveN semiautomatic handgun, killing 13 people (12 of them Soldiers) and wounding 34 others before he was shot by military police. Hasan sustained multiple injuries but survived. He will face 13 charges of premeditated murder in a military court. The shooting ranks as the nation's worst ever on a military installation.

Hasan had openly opposed America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and espoused extremist Islamic views. He was being monitored by the FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force because of emails he had exchanged with the radical imam Anwar al-Awlaki. The FBI was also investigating whether he was behind violent anti-American comments left on a website under the screen name of "NidalHasan." On two separate occasions, officials from Walter Reed and the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences met and expressed concern about Hasan's behavior, which fellow students and faculty had described as "disconnected, aloof, paranoid, belligerent and schizoid."

In March 1996, Hasan obtained a concealed handgun permit in Roanoke County, Virginia, where he lived at the time. The permit was renewed in February 1998. The application for his original permit can be viewed here.

6) Paul Michael Merhige
On Thanksgiving Day, Paul Michael Merhige, 35, sat through three hours of dinner and sing-a-longs with his family in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, before opening fire with a handgun. He shot six family members and killed four: his twin sisters, one of whom was pregnant; a 79 year-old aunt; and his six year-old cousin, Makalya Sitton, who was shot as she lay in bed. As he fired, witnesses heard Merhige say, "I have been waiting 20 years for this."

Merhige bought three guns—two pistols and a semiautomatic rifle—at a South Florida gun shop the day before the shooting. The owner of the shop reported that Merhige had a concealed handgun permit.

In 2006, Merhige's sister Carla (who was killed in the shooting) requested a restraining order against him after he threatened to kill her and himself. She eventually withdrew the request. The U.S. Marshal's Service released a psychological profile of Merhige that indicates he has a history of mental illness and has taken the following medications: Seroquel, an antipsychotic prescribed for bipolar disorder, depression and schizophrenia; Ativan, an anti-anxiety medication; and Atenolol, a beta-blocker used to treat angina and hypertension. Merhige's father said his son once attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest.

Merhige escaped detection by law enforcement authorities after the murders and is currently a fugitive from justice. He faces four counts of first degree murder and two of attempted murder.


Additionally, terrorist suspect Anes Subasic was able to obtain a concealed handgun permit in his home state of North Carolina. On September 25, authorities apprehended 33-year-old Subasic after a nine-hour search of his home in Holly Springs. Subasic is a Muslim who fled Bosnia during its civil war (later becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen). Along with six others, Subasic was charged with planning violent overseas operations and an attack on the Marine Corps base in Quantico, Virginia.
anes subasic
The Bosnian Serb Republic courts had issued four warrants for Subasic’s arrest, one of which was international. An official with the Bosnian Serb police stated that Subasic “is known to be part of a criminal gang that operated in the wider area of Bosnia and the region.” All told, Bosnian Serb police charged Subasic 11 times on 16 counts of attempted murder, extortion and robbery. A waitress in Banja Luka recalled Subasic entering a restaurant and spraying fire randomly with an automatic weapon. “Whoever knows Anes, they are not surprised [by his recent arrest],” she said.

And all of which proves my point that innocent people get murdered.

[IR_mike]

^^^^So after reading your last post Sundancefisher.....You are saying islamic terrorists should not have guns as they may kill people?

I agree

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by uglyelk

Hardly anyone gets chewed up by cats and bears.

You are right. If one or two a year, is hardly anyone.

I know of only three bear Maulings and zero cougar maulings for the entire northern Alberta. In all of recorded history.

We have cougar, and way way more bears up here, then you do down there. Yet almost no maulings.

Ever wonder why that is?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And all of which proves my point that innocent people get murdered.

which also proves that they get murdered by guys with concealed gun permits...

How do you deal with that?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You are right. If one or two a year, is hardly anyone.

I know of only three bear Maulings and zero cougar maulings for the entire northern Alberta. In all of recorded history.

We have cougar, and way way more bears up here, then you do down there. Yet almost no maulings.

Ever wonder why that is?

Interesting...Old Spice maybe?

[elkhunter11]

which also proves that they get murdered by guys with concealed gun permits

Case #1, if the people stopping to help the beating victim were armed, one of them could have shot the person, and ended it there. And the murderer could have done the same damage with an illegal gun.

Case #2 he was carrying two assault type rifles, as well as a shotgun, so a handgun was the last thing to worry about.

Case #3 a pathetic attempt at an example,he didn't even have a handgun while committing the crimes.

Case#4 he carried the guns in a duffle bag, where he could have just as easily carried an assault rifle.

Case #5 he was being monitored by the FBI, and should have had his license revoked because of his behavior.

Case #6 he could have just as easily used the semi auto rifle to do the same damage

Case#7 the system gave someone a permit that should not have had one.

You used instances where handguns were not used, and in one case not even present. In other instances, the person could have just as easily used a semi auto carbine, and likely have done even more damage.
In the other cases, the people should not have been granted licenses, the licensing system failed. As for the people involved with terrorist groups or white supremacist groups, getting illegal handguns would not have been a problem for them, so not having a license would not have been a huge deterrent. If you have to use such weak examples, you can't have much of an argument.

How do you deal with that?

You don't give CCW permits to people with backgrounds like a few of these people. In the case of the person that didn't even have a handgun at the time, obviously a CCW wasn't in any way a factor.

I suppose that next you are going to say that because of what James Rozco did, nobody should be allowed to possess any type of firearm? By the way Rosko had a handgun, and he didn't have a CCW. Obviously not having a CCW didn't stop him from committing murder.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by cranky

Funny i was going to post the same comments quite a bit earlier. Ive spent almost as much of my life Stateside as here being as im a trucker. Over half my personal friends are American and 2/3 carry. None have ever shown off there guns to me nor have any of them ever needed to draw it out. Its just a normal thing to carry with them. They all say that they tend to walk away from trouble because its such a large responsibility to carry,and people can get hurt.
None of them chew tobacco and there knuckles are'nt overly extended for there body size either. And only one lives in a mobile home re: some unkind comments made earlier on in this thread by someone i thought was not the type to slag people like that.

I am sure you are talking about me, I am the one that made the chaw comment.
I 'slagged' a country, knew when I hit the button I typed the wrong thing.
I travel to the USA lots, have many friends on the south side of the paper border, plan on moving to Hawaii in 5 years.

I am sorry for putting insensitive comments up.
I will do my best not to do that again.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Gonehuntin'

While I respect your right to your opinion, I must disagree with your views.

It is this type of gun owner/Fudd that have sold their fellow fire arms enthusiasts, outdoorsmen, CITIZENS down the river on the gun issues, be it by reclassification/restriction or what have you, rather quickly, and obviously still do so.Divide and conquer has been and is a strong approach for the anti gun, statist crowd , and is only helped along by people espousing the power and claim of the many on the individual.Such as yourself, judging solely by your posts here.

If you are a certified (trained), background checked individual- why no carry- open or concealed?Are the responsble citizens who go through the processes of obtaining these licenses REALLY the problem where carry rights exist?I doubt it.

The unsavory, lawless element that is growing strongly all the time sees no need for paperwork or permission to carry- they just do it. I believe that the process for a CCW permit in many states is strikingly similar to what RPAL holders must do to get just the license for range only use of restricted class firearms. So in a nutshell, even citizens that are by deed and record, among the most responsible, law abiding portion of our society should not have at their disposal means of defense of their own person and others?So you do not want to legally carry.... so don't.But please feel free to limit your choice only to yourself, not to everyone else.

So only the baddies and the state representatives have guns in these situations- leaving the other 99% with not much and stuck in the middle.The violent criminals do their harm, and the law abiding pay for it in restrictions on their own personal liberties, and in the monetary sense they must pay to police, try in a court, and incarcerate the violent criminal. So if you're not a cop or military,and not a crook, your just a sucker that get stuck with the bills for all the above and the burden?Nice. I love my country, but this needs to change.

Pesky- thanks for your service, I still must disagree with you.

That's fine.
We agree to disagree... on this one point.

I can appreciate the sentiment but feel that the solutions to the problems we have are different.

I think the thing that really ate at me was how can someone claim to be a citizen in good standing and then go on about carrying loaded weapons in vehicles and their association with people that trade in unlawful restricted weapons?

Not you.... someone else.

My thought is that the argument is moot.
You'll never see firearms laws that relaxed in Canada.

The real question for us to be asking is...

Assuming the Long Gun Registry does die...what then?
Without that registry licensing and everything else will still be in effect and how many of us really understand what that means?

Does everyone appreciate the added effort we will have to make to ensure someone is licensed when we buy and sell privately?
How many otherwise lawful owners will sell something under the table and get burned because the guy they sold to wasn't licensed?
How many will get burned when they buy a stolen weapon thinking it was legit?

What new unthought of perils will be created when the registry dies?

I think it's going to get interesting and if it gets too interesting....the registry will be back in a heart beat.
I never liked the registry either but lately I've been thinking that maybe we should be careful what we wish for... we might be just exchanging one problem for others.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

I probaly would not bother to carry a hand gun as there a pain. I can live with out but I should have the right to if I should want to.

I've given pesky a bit to think about and he has made me wonder just how yung he is as he served in the military but did not relize that he was quoting hitler and stalin don't they teach history in schools any more.

as for wantabee rambos thier kids that never had any thing to do with firearms then turn legal age and can legale get a gun and whats cooler than a fully auto military rifle. most of them would loose thier fasination of them if they had a chance to use them they would soon relize that spaying lead aruond doesn't realy do much for hitting targets unless your faily close.

the more you keep people from something the more they want it
like alcahol keep it totaly for bidden to any one under age and they will fined a way of getting it. or try to drink the province dry when they do turn of age.

I'm 47.
26 years service.
3 war zones.

My schools taught both History AND Spelling and I was an A student in both... thank you very much.

It baffles me now that someone that claims to know so much about Hitler and Stalin is so mis-informed.
The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact made sure their citizens had access to training and all sorts of weapons if needed. Just look at that little place called the former Yugoslavia and it wasn't very hard for Germans in good standing to get firearms...course you needed to be a Nazi or Hitler youth but... at that time that meant a citizen in good standing....didn't it?

It further baffles me that you can sit there and tell us about carrying a loaded weapon around in your vehicle and...someone else can allude to shady people they know that can get them an unlawful handgun and still claim to be citizens in good standing.

You can disagree with whatever you like... you can even try to change that but if you think those laws apply to everyone but you... thats hardly good citizenship.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Now you are trying to tell us that no innocent people ever get robbed in Edmonton or Calgary? What color is the sky in your world?

I think what he is saying is...the odds are in way your favour.
There just aren't that many armed robberies here.
Also take a look at who gets clipped here... it's almost always a no-good getting clipped by another no good.
No loss.

[Okotokian]

I think the issue is this: How do we allow for good law abiding citizens to possess and use guns for lawful purposes (a long-standing Canadian tradition) and yet not create a "gun culture" as they have in the U.S.? There is a reason they have a murder rate an order of magnitude greater than ours, and it's not a matter of the number of guns in the population. Millions of Canadians own guns. It's the attitude towards them. I'm not a supporter of a "packin' populace".

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by twisted canuck

I don't even know where to start with this.....so, people who want to defend themselves are stupid, cowering sheep who have no idea, right? But if they put a stray round through your window, the well trained military Commando is going to hunt them down and kill them because he has the right and Uber Skills to defend his pane of glass....and so on and so on.....So, because you have been there and done that, you are The Man, and everyone else who has responded to this thread is a pitiful grousing sheep. Hmmmmm. And most ex military types think like you? I think not. My hunting partner spent 11 years being there and doing that, and most assuredly would disagree with you, and probably question your own credentials. But never mind, you go on talking about how you served to defend the rights of the people of this country, while trash talking them for excercising those very freedoms> I suppose it is too much to expect that our freedoms wouldn't be further curtailed by Men In Suits who impose their laws and views on a populace that probably didn't even vote for them....Pesky certainly seems to suit you.

The point was obviously missed... along with the sarcasm and irony

Defense of life aside people were saying that they think they should be able to shoot if being robbed or if their house was broke in to.
Obviously, by that measure anyone that has a weapon fired at them should then also be able to shoot back....right?

Now...what happens when we ALL do that? You shoot at the guy in the window...I return fire because my window has a bullet go through it. A stray from our exchange creases the hood on the neighbours car...he thinks it's the guy next door and starts to shoot... pretty soon... it's the OK Corral.

Obviously I'm not going hunting.
Obviously I'm not going to chase any of my neighbours down and execute them... although it would be tempting.
Obviously I'm not some SUPER COMMANDO just some guy whose experiences has led him to different conclusions and who happens to react when people reduce debate to anecdotal cherry picking and insults when they have nothing of real value or from personal experience to contribute. People that also complain when the anti-gunners do exactly the same thing I might add...

As for my other comments about sheep that was in direct response to a personal attack buy someone that seems to think I'm a wall flower... which I am not. The same people that seem to take their freedom for granted and believe it is a carte blanche entitlement to do whatever they like while they have never actually done anything more to make the world a better place than pay taxes.
They brought it up first... leveled at me and I responded.
Otherwise I never would have said that...I like civies...most of my friends are civies and I look forward to being one myself (again) in a couple more years.
My comments were not directed at you or most others on this forum but it was rather annoying to be referred to that way by a couple of especially narrow and ignorant individuals that have probably never spent any time in any sort of national or community service and would therefore certainly fit the bill better than I.

Thing is we don't have the right in law to escalate or reach for deadly force but you do have a right to defend yourself. If you happen to kill someone while you are doing that it gets examined and maybe you end up charged.
People seem to think that it is only Joe average that goes through this but that is not so.
If a cop kills someone on duty... there is an enquiry and if he boobed up...a trial.
Depending upon the situation... soldiers undergo the same processes.

Both the police and the military do not allow their people to casually use deadly force so why should anyone else be permitted to do so?

If someone came at me with blazing guns and I was armed would I shoot back?
Sure... I did last time but I was already armed and there was an expectation of trouble. I do not go around heeled waiting for that to happen in my normal life. When people do... it ends in tragedy more often than not.

As for the personal insults that you decided you need to level because you didn't read all the threads or even try to see it from my perspective...

Pog mo thoin...sgidean!

Anyway...I'm outa here.
I need to try avoid these sorts of threads...they get too heated and...I lose faith in humanity and sleep every time they come up.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by pesky672

I'm 47.
26 years service.
3 war zones.

My schools taught both History AND Spelling and I was an A student in both... thank you very much.

It baffles me now that someone that claims to know so much about Hitler and Stalin is so mis-informed.
The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact made sure their citizens had access to training and all sorts of weapons if needed. Just look at that little place called the former Yugoslavia and it wasn't very hard for Germans in good standing to get firearms...course you needed to be a Nazi or Hitler youth but... at that time that meant a citizen in good standing....didn't it?

It further baffles me that you can sit there and tell us about carrying a loaded weapon around in your vehicle and...someone else can allude to shady people they know that can get them an unlawful handgun and still claim to be citizens in good standing.

You can disagree with whatever you like... you can even try to change that but if you think those laws apply to everyone but you... thats hardly good citizenship.

I never claimed that it was loaded you did shells in the mag. is not the same as loaded and your quite right about what a goverment can claim to be citizens in good standing. either buy race or religion or any other standard they wish. and now your claiming that a person can't be a citizen in good standing because of who they know.

welcome back missed you the last couple of days as your a lot more fun to argue with than sundancefisher.

[Lonnie]

pesky672

when you were in the service did they still use the FN C2A1 rifle or had they been replaced buy then.

[Lonnie]

someone else can allude to shady people they know that can get them an unlawful handgun and still claim to be citizens in good standing.

buy that standard any cop that knows a crook shouldn't be a citizen in good standing.