Paid Hunting

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by landowner

My lawyer says your wrong. I am liable if I give access, paid or otherwise. That is why some of my neighbors have elected to go with professional outfitters. They carry insurance so that producers don't have the headache of lawsuits. Although I haven't gone this route it also looks appealing as there is minimal policing and no 6:00 wakeup calls for "instant access". Perhaps liability might boil down to a judges decision, and some landowners don't want to roll that dice.

Actually your lawyer is providing you with very poor advise. You should consult with your insurance provider on this matter.

Regarding your neighbours and the professionals who occupy their land, well the outfitter carries insurance for his business, but I am certain they do NOT carry rider policies for all lands they conduct business on.

Granting access dose not fall into a judges decision, if it did we would not be discussing this mute point and there would be thousands of cases already through the judicial system, there are not...

Wish you the best in your future decisions. Your dirt, your rules simple as that...

[landowner]

It would be a judges decision if it boils down to a lawsuit. You are liable if someone is injured on your land and they can somehow prove that you are at fault for that injury.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by landowner

It would be a judges decision if it boils down to a lawsuit. You are liable if someone is injured on your land and they can somehow prove that you are at fault for that injury.

Insurance wouldn't change that much if they prove your at fault ...cause your at fault.

[landowner]

Think I'll take my trusted lawyer's advice over faceless names on a computer.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by landowner

Think I'll take my trusted lawyer's advice over faceless names on a computer.

If you had me on retainer id tell you anything that would help keep me on retainer as well

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by landowner

Think I'll take my trusted lawyer's advice over faceless names on a computer.

Dont see that everyday in one sentence. Trust and lawyer.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Insurance wouldn't change that much if they prove your at fault ...cause your at fault.

Not to mention the fact that if you are at fault...you are getting sued...period.
The only thing to consider is whether you'd rather go up against an individual...or an insurance company.

[Duke11]

For you hunters that are against lease land and ranchers. What would happen if alberta government does the same as Saskatchewan. Sells there crown land to the leasee and turns it into private land. No more lease to hunt and all private. It is coming.

[J D]

Originally Posted by Duke11

For you hunters that are against lease land and ranchers. What would happen if alberta government does the same as Saskatchewan. Sells there crown land to the leasee and turns it into private land. No more lease to hunt and all private. It is coming.

Still does not make it a good reason to bring in paid hunting.

Some landowners will give permission to hunt some won't no different from what it is now.

[ward]

Originally Posted by Duke11

For you hunters that are against lease land and ranchers. What would happen if alberta government does the same as Saskatchewan. Sells there crown land to the leasee and turns it into private land. No more lease to hunt and all private. It is coming.

It happens in Alberta now.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Carry on with the bash, when more and more land gets closed and "paid access" starts creeping in, and you start looking frantically for someone to blame..........just look in the mirror.

What bash Bob?

All I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it to and that landowners should consider that when advocating paid access.

Bussiness and contracts and negotiations involve two parties both interested in securing the best deal they can to meet their interests.

Guaranteed.... not many folks are going to drop money for access to land for hunting without more protections in place than the current usual access arangements allow for.

IOW...right now a landowner can change his mind on a whim and send a fella packing if he so chooses but nobody is gonna drop a couple grand into your hand without a written agreement that stipulates that conditions and rights are guaranteed by BOTH parties if paid access is the driving force behind that agreement.

I would imagine that among other things a customer might demand full unfettered access and assurances that others who had not paid for access would not be hunting alongside them.

That might complicate a landowners life considerably and force him to consider his hunting customers before his Ag Operation during the fall.

All I'm saying is that bussiness requires an exchange of money for service and that paid access would likely not be as cut and dry as taking money from a guy without compromise that does not exist at this time when you allow people to hunt your land in exchange for a handshake and a thank you.

That might be a splash of cold water in faces to wake a few folks up buddy...but simply pointing out what should be obvious to all....is not bashing.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by flyguyd

If you had me on retainer id tell you anything that would help keep me on retainer as well

That is pretty cynical...you don't know his lawyer, he might be an honest one.


We all pay to hunt anyway, so what if it's another charge to access?? Lots of guys are supportive of SAR insurance, registering/ insurance and licenses for hunters using an atv. So what is the big deal if your asked to give the landowner a little moola for the privilege of hunting on his land? If you can't afford to pay the piper then take up another sport.

[elkhunter11]

We all pay to hunt anyway, so what if it's another charge to access?? Lots of guys are supportive of SAR insurance, registering/ insurance and licenses for hunters using an atv. So what is the big deal if your asked to give the landowner a little moola for the privilege of hunting on his land? If you can't afford to pay the piper then take up another sport.

Would you pay a landowner $100 per year to hunt on his land? Would you pay him $500 per year, to hunt on his land? How about $2500 per year? Like anything else, once it gets started, the prices will rise as high as people are willing to pay. As well, once one landowner in the area is receiving an access fee, the other landowners in the area are going to want theirs too, so it won't be long, before almost everyone tacks on an access fee.An outfitter can raise his fees to cover the access fees, and he could also write off the fees as an expense,so it wouldn't effect him as much, and a wealthy person could afford to pay a substantial fee, but what happens to our hunting heritage, when the average person can't find a lease to hunt on, because the outfitters, and wealthy people, have them all locked up?

[lannie]

Paid hunting will happen sooner than later. Decide which end you want to be on. With many things in life you are either in line buying a ticket or you are collecting the money. One day people will say "remember how inexpensive that land was? I sure wish I bought some back then". Find some land with good hunting on it and buy it. Very low risk imo.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by lannie

Paid hunting will happen sooner than later. Decide which end you want to be on. With many things in life you are either in line buying a ticket or you are collecting the money. One day people will say "remember how inexpensive that land was? I sure wish I bought some back then". Find some land with good hunting on it and buy it. Very low risk imo.

Right. Its just that easy. Go buy some prime hunting land and bingo! When paid access roles in all you have to do is collect the cash. How many people have the capability to do that really? Especially the up and coming generation who are trying to get thier feet under them financially. Theyre going to focus on education and career, and have you seen the price of a little chit shack in most anywhere with a good economy? Its bad enough for a guy to get his first mortgage, nevermind buy enough land thats worth hunting on. And if its all theyll ever know, they will be willing to pay the access fees to hunt...

But right, everyone under 30 is single and working the rigs

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Would you pay a landowner $100 per year to hunt on his land? Would you pay him $500 per year, to hunt on his land? How about $2500 per year? Like anything else, once it gets started, the prices will rise as high as people are willing to pay. As well, once one landowner in the area is receiving an access fee, the other landowners in the area are going to want theirs too, so it won't be long, before almost everyone tacks on an access fee.An outfitter can raise his fees to cover the access fees, and he could also write off the fees as an expense,so it wouldn't effect him as much, and a wealthy person could afford to pay a substantial fee, but what happens to our hunting heritage, when the average person can't find a lease to hunt on, because the outfitters, and wealthy people, have them all locked up?

That would depend upon how good the hunting was on his land, and how long I planned on buying the right to hunt it would be. For a prime spot with moose, deer and elk, $2500 per season would be cheap.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by J.B.

Right. Its just that easy. Go buy some prime hunting land and bingo! When paid access roles in all you have to do is collect the cash. How many people have the capability to do that really? Especially the up and coming generation who are trying to get thier feet under them financially. Theyre going to focus on education and career, and have you seen the price of a little chit shack in most anywhere with a good economy? Its bad enough for a guy to get his first mortgage, nevermind buy enough land thats worth hunting on. And if its all theyll ever know, they will be willing to pay the access fees to hunt...

But right, everyone under 30 is single and working the rigs

Better get in before the prices go even higher...the one thing about land is that there is only so much of it, and the prices don't generally go down.

[missingtwo]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

That would depend upon how good the hunting was on his land, and how long I planned on buying the right to hunt it would be. For a prime spot with moose, deer and elk, $2500 per season would be cheap.

I would think that $2500 / year would cut out about 80% of resident hunters.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

What bash Bob?

All I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it to and that landowners should consider that when advocating paid access.

Bussiness and contracts and negotiations involve two parties both interested in securing the best deal they can to meet their interests.

Guaranteed.... not many folks are going to drop money for access to land for hunting without more protections in place than the current usual access arangements allow for.

IOW...right now a landowner can change his mind on a whim and send a fella packing if he so chooses but nobody is gonna drop a couple grand into your hand without a written agreement that stipulates that conditions and rights are guaranteed by BOTH parties if paid access is the driving force behind that agreement.

I would imagine that among other things a customer might demand full unfettered access and assurances that others who had not paid for access would not be hunting alongside them.

That might complicate a landowners life considerably and force him to consider his hunting customers before his Ag Operation during the fall.

All I'm saying is that bussiness requires an exchange of money for service and that paid access would likely not be as cut and dry as taking money from a guy without compromise that does not exist at this time when you allow people to hunt your land in exchange for a handshake and a thank you.

That might be a splash of cold water in faces to wake a few folks up buddy...but simply pointing out what should be obvious to all....is not bashing.

Kudos Pesky. Best post of the year.

I agree times a million. Many of these guys pushing for paid access are not thinking it through.

The rancher who decided he was going to cow out the pheasant hole isn't going to get to charge as much as the rancher who left the cover up.

Land prices, feed prices, access to grazing leases and community pasture are all going to change dramatically.

Think I am going to pay a big bill for a whitetail hunt and not sue when I fall into his drifted over burn pit? (That he forgot to tell me about - easy money works both ways?)

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by missingtwo

I would think that $2500 / year would cut out about 80% of resident hunters.

I guess they couldn't afford it then. Lots of guys don't have memberships at the golf club or own jet boats either....we all have to adjust our lifestyles so we can live within our means.

Agreed there would be residents that gave it up, but many would just absorb the added expense. Go back 30 years and very few guys had atvs and now a lot of people do....that alone must be costing guys an extra $2500 per year??

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I guess they couldn't afford it then. Lots of guys don't have memberships at the golf club or own jet boats either....we all have to adjust our lifestyles so we can live within our means.

Agreed there would be residents that gave it up, but many would just absorb the added expense. Go back 30 years and very few guys had atvs and now a lot of people do....that alone must be costing guys an extra $2500 per year??

Pretty horrid justification of paid hunting. Everything is capitalistic and there are far too many activities that cost big $$$ to do. Heck, hunting is expensive enough as it it.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

What bash Bob?

All I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it to and that landowners should consider that when advocating paid access.

Bussiness and contracts and negotiations involve two parties both interested in securing the best deal they can to meet their interests.

Guaranteed.... not many folks are going to drop money for access to land for hunting without more protections in place than the current usual access arangements allow for.

IOW...right now a landowner can change his mind on a whim and send a fella packing if he so chooses but nobody is gonna drop a couple grand into your hand without a written agreement that stipulates that conditions and rights are guaranteed by BOTH parties if paid access is the driving force behind that agreement.

I would imagine that among other things a customer might demand full unfettered access and assurances that others who had not paid for access would not be hunting alongside them.

That might complicate a landowners life considerably and force him to consider his hunting customers before his Ag Operation during the fall.

All I'm saying is that bussiness requires an exchange of money for service and that paid access would likely not be as cut and dry as taking money from a guy without compromise that does not exist at this time when you allow people to hunt your land in exchange for a handshake and a thank you.

That might be a splash of cold water in faces to wake a few folks up buddy...but simply pointing out what should be obvious to all....is not bashing.

I think you are a bit confused, I am not advocating paid hunting??????

[North of Owlseye]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I guess they couldn't afford it then. Lots of guys don't have memberships at the golf club or own jet boats either....we all have to adjust our lifestyles so we can live within our means.

Agreed there would be residents that gave it up, but many would just absorb the added expense. Go back 30 years and very few guys had atvs and now a lot of people do....that alone must be costing guys an extra $2500 per year??

Yeah, yeah, couple of thousand bucks. No problem, just suck it up and pay up and if you can't afford it you can't play. You are so missing the whole point, it is so easy to speculate about 2500 a year as no big deal. Just wait until you and all your friends are SOL because only the big money guys can play. Why would we even entertain the idea as acceptable because it might not be too big an expense. The whole idea of an unlevel playing field based on a guy's ability to pay is just completely wrong. Dosen't the little guy get squeezed out of enough of life's pleasures with out draging our democratic hunting heritage into the market model? In this case 'democratic' means everyone is equal - not about voting or the like.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by North of Owlseye

Yeah, yeah, couple of thousand bucks. No problem, just suck it up and pay up and if you can't afford it you can't play. You are so missing the whole point, it is so easy to speculate about 2500 a year as no big deal. Just wait until you and all your friends are SOL because only the big money guys can play. Why would we even entertain the idea as acceptable because it might not be too big an expense. The whole idea of an unlevel playing field based on a guy's ability to pay is just completely wrong. Dosen't the little guy get squeezed out of enough of life's pleasures with out draging our democratic hunting heritage into the market model? In this case 'democratic' means everyone is equal - not about voting or the like.

Is it true that an american citizen can buy hunts for species that you have to get drawn for in priority draws?? Is it true that he can get these hunts year after year after year...while you wait to get drawn? What I am asking is, isn't your hunting heritage already in the market model? Aren't you as the little guy in this scenario being squeezed out in favor of the guy that has the ability to pay already???? We are allowing this to happen, what makes anyone think that a move towards paying for access will be any different?

[bison]

Originally Posted by North of Owlseye

Yeah, yeah, couple of thousand bucks. No problem, just suck it up and pay up and if you can't afford it you can't play. You are so missing the whole point, it is so easy to speculate about 2500 a year as no big deal. Just wait until you and all your friends are SOL because only the big money guys can play. Why would we even entertain the idea as acceptable because it might not be too big an expense. The whole idea of an unlevel playing field based on a guy's ability to pay is just completely wrong. Dosen't the little guy get squeezed out of enough of life's pleasures with out draging our democratic hunting heritage into the market model? In this case 'democratic' means everyone is equal - not about voting or the like.

Nobody is stopping ye from buying a chunk of land fer yer own hunting pleasure now,..is it?
And there's always crown land eh.

I like to own an Rolls Royse,..can't afford it.
I drive an old GMC instead.

just saying

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by bison

Nobody is stopping ye from buying a chunk of land fer yer own hunting pleasure now,..is it?
And there's always crown land eh.

I like to own an Rolls Royse,..can't afford it.
I drive an old GMC instead.

just saying

Yep just like that. Go buy an inflated piece of land. NOBODY is stopping anyone from buying. SOMETHING is and it's called $$$. Let's be realistic here.... If it ain't broke don't fix it. The landowners in the area where I hunt have been unbelievably awesome. They even opened up their cabin to us this fall to stay in. I am simply blown away by the generosity and in turn I offer a gift as a thank you. It's such an awesome relationship builder too. I now am friends with a farmer who lives way away from me that I never would have had a personal relationship with if it hadn't been for good will and generosity. It's win win. If I paid to hunt on his land I don't believe id have any such thing. I'm not all that savvy on the lore and history of hunting but for me dropping game is just icing on the cake. It's an experience. I don't believe $$$ can buy what we have right now. God bless all you generous land owners.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I think you are a bit confused, I am not advocating paid hunting??????

Yet you manage to determine that myself and so many others are bashing landowners whether we are or not.

To be fair... there was some bashing of those that support the idea but if you oppose paid access...why would that bother you?

Seems like maybe you have a chip on your shoulder whenever these discussions come up....and that you leap to conclusions or make wrongful assumptions about intentions or how others feel about landowners.

You've done that to me more than once now and it is getting very tiring.

Fact is I have quite a few landowner friends and access to more land than I can hope to hunt in one year.
I come from a family with an Ag background in this province that predates the railroad and even the NWMP and I have no trouble getting along with folks but...I do like to speak my mind when it suits me and I do not care for greedy selfish people who chase money without considering that their enterprise will impact upon a hellofalot more than just their bank account.

I remember when there was more to Albertans than their bank accounts and big trucks.
The last of that attitude...the one that defined people here as warm and community minded and honest...the one we are or were so proud of.. is all but dead but it can still be found in men with dust on their faces and calloused hands who ride tractors and horses and run fencelines.

I resent any attempt that will make it disappear entirely.

Paid access would eventually force good men and women to go against their nature... just to stay competative with their neighbours who care for nothing more than a quick buck.

It'll kill a lot of family farms.

[IR_mike]

I can not believe how some people are so eager to destroy a level/even playingfield that we have in this province in regards to hunting access for greed or gain.

With the economic opportunities we have no one needs the meat, but some need the extra cash that paid access may bring them.

[bison]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Yep just like that. Go buy an inflated piece of land. NOBODY is stopping anyone from buying. SOMETHING is and it's called $$$. Let's be realistic here.... If it ain't broke don't fix it. The landowners in the area where I hunt have been unbelievably awesome. They even opened up their cabin to us this fall to stay in. I am simply blown away by the generosity and in turn I offer a gift as a thank you. It's such an awesome relationship builder too. I now am friends with a farmer who lives way away from me that I never would have had a personal relationship with if it hadn't been for good will and generosity. It's win win. If I paid to hunt on his land I don't believe id have any such thing. I'm not all that savvy on the lore and history of hunting but for me dropping game is just icing on the cake. It's an experience. I don't believe $$$ can buy what we have right now. God bless all you generous land owners.

I love ranching.
I tried at first when starting out to get access to some private land to graze some cows for free,
Guess what?...
Then i tried on crown land...
Same thing....got no sympathy .Jeez,..all i wanted was to graze a couple cows for free
Then it dawned on me that i had to pay for what i wanted!
Figured if that is the case i may as well own the land.

Wish all hunters had your attitude.

[kujoseto]

Didn't quite read all the pages, so ignore me if you so please...not just trying to stir the pot but actually open up discussion further.
I would rather see all outfitting/guiding become a part of srd. No lucrative business for it at all. All monetary gain goes into conservation efforts. Sustainable hunting with reasonable privileges for all resident Alberta hunters has no room for ego. If I ever have to pay for hunting access, I will never be able to afford it. I can bet other people in my position would resort to hunting anyways (which under new rules would make it poaching). Opportunity should not depend on the depth of the pocket.
Edit: badger, I think you are on track... if selfishness and greed seep in to societal norms, everyone loses out on what makes this place so wonderful to live in...