6.5 Grendal Kills, including a 752 yrd speed goat

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Have you been paying attention? That's been covered in this thread and others. Hornady, the company that manufactures the ELDX bullets says the ELDX will perform as intended as slow as 1800fps



The same company says the 6.5 143gr ELDX is suitable for class three animals such as elk, the same class as a 270gr 338.





Dead is dead. According to Hornady the 143gr bullet will perform as intended at 1800fps, this isn't something I'm making up. The fact that it's a 6.5 caliber means it's got a high ballistic coefficient and no matter what the muzzle velocity is, it will retain speed at a higher rate than a lot of others and will have a high sectional density and retain energy that will allow greater penetration.

So what about the science that says it takes a minimum amount of energy to kill an animal? It's the science Stinky coyote has been trying to explain to you but you're not listening.

I do understand but I don't understand is why not drive it as hard and fast as you can? Sure barrel like and you don't to burn powder but all in all that bullet out of a 26 nosler could be doing at 500 yards what your cm is doing at 300

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

What about the science that says it takes a minimum amount of energy to kill a animal? Bigger, heavier and faster bullet achieves this. No?

Do you have a reference to this scientific study?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

I do understand but I don't understand is why not drive it as hard and fast as you can? Sure barrel like and you don't to burn powder but all in all that bullet out of a 26 nosler could be doing at 500 yards what your cm is doing at 300

This is why. An afternoons worth of shooting. You cannot and will not see the volume of shooting with your ego booster. I have nothing against magnums I’ve shot and killed with lots of them. I’m not convinced they offer a significant advantage in the real hunting world.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

I do understand but I don't understand is why not drive it as hard and fast as you can? Sure barrel like and you don't to burn powder but all in all that bullet out of a 26 nosler could be doing at 500 yards what your cm is doing at 300

I don't need to drive it as hard and as fast as I can because I'm only hunting deer, moose, and elk made of flesh and bone. I've been there and done that and still had a deer get away with a 300 magnum hole in it. That's when I realized a big gun doesn't make up for a poor shot. Before the 300 magnums I was shooting a 308 and a 280 and killing stuff without issue, at ranges over 500yds.

I bought the Creedmoor with the intentions of using it as a still hunting rifle, something I will carry all day long while I'm in the bush. 300 yards will be a long poke, and I know it'll have the punch to kill whatever I'm shooting at, at that range. With it being a Creedmoor it'll be fun and cheap to plink with, plus the barrel will handle a lot of rounds going through it.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

Do you have a reference to this scientific study?

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...e+Killing.html

Lots of info here

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

This is why. An afternoons worth of shooting. You cannot and will not see the volume of shooting with your ego booster. I have nothing against magnums I’ve shot and killed with lots of them. I’m not convinced they offer a significant advantage in the real hunting world.

Those are 223's
I do the same thing, practice with mine all the time. Fire maybe 20 or so with the real rifles and keep form in check with the 223
Savage axis is a great little cheapo rifle
Saves barrel life too

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Those are 223's
I do the same thing, practice with mine all the time. Fire maybe 20 or so with the real rifles and keep form in check with the 223
Savage axis is a great little cheapo rifle
Saves barrel life too

I'd bet those are 6.5 Creedmoor, the same rifle he plans on hunting with.

[marky_mark]

Stamped 223 on the bottom
They share the same case so they could be?
That one was too easy haha

[Norwest Alta]

Shoot what you shoot, I'll shoot what I shoot. Like i said it means squat to me what,where,when and how. Meat in the freezer and lead in the air is what it's all about imo. If you're successful with a little gun or a big gun it means nothing more then being successful.

I do get a laugh out of the ego booster comment though. Never thought of a magnum rifle shooter needing a ego boost.

[cowmanbob]

[QUOTE=Kurt505;3804759]I don't need to drive it as hard and as fast as I can because I'm only hunting deer, moose, and elk

So why would you get a 280ai instead of a 280 rem?

[Kurt505]

[QUOTE=cowmanbob;3804804]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I don't need to drive it as hard and as fast as I can because I'm only hunting deer, moose, and elk

So why would you get a 280ai instead of a 280 rem?

I've got both. I got the 280ai originally because that's what the Kimber I bought was chambered in. So after a few years with that I had the dies and a pile of quality brass so it was the obvious choice when I ordered the first Nula. I have about 300 Nosler brass, it just made sense.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I have a 6.5x284 I think it’s awesome!

I’ve have had a 6.8 Spc which is very similar to the Grendel. I’ve killed a few deer with it, and from my experience. I think your expecting too much out of it. I think it would be great for wolves and coyotes.

Hope it works
Someone is bound to test it here sooner or later.
Honest feedback would be appreciated

The 110 gr .277 bullet in the 6.8 spc i used had a sectional density of .205, lower limit for 2nd class game. And a b.c. of only .370.

The Grendel 123 gr projectile has 3rd class game s.d. at .252 and a b.c. of .51.

That's a huge difference. The first one just adequate for deer size game and limited range as it will slow down real fast with that sad b.c. The 2nd one adequate for elk size game but will also keep the effective range longer because of that awesome b.c.

And it doesn't need to be tested. The Grendel has been killing well for 14 years now. It's only questioned where it's first being learned about...as is the case on this forum.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Stamped 223 on the bottom
They share the same case so they could be?
That one was too easy haha

Yep. And you can do the same with the Grendel, Creedmoor, 243 etc. Not so much with larger cartridges.

[catnthehat]

Just because there is a forum dedicated to a specific cartridge, rifle style or bust for that matter does not automatically make it unknown to members of this forum, nor does it make it the end all and be all of anything .

If you like the Grendel fine, shoot it but there are members here that seem to think that because someone has done something with a specific cartridge it is the only thing that will kill properly .
The fact is that it is in a certain cartridge group and all within that group will kill efficiently and atecsccurate enough to be in a certain competitive discipline .
Going on abd on about how much better it is than something else is basically to me is about the same as a snake oil salesman .
It gets tiring . We are not a bunch of uniformed buffoons as some seem to make us out to be be here.
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

To achieve penetration you need energy. True? If you can drive a blunt stick from your bow with enough energy it should still kill shouldn't It?

You'd need a ton of energy but yes it will do it. Also consider the ft/lbs energy it would take a vehicle hitting a deer to do the same thing.

What has been learned about and this is for Marky also is something along these lines.

S.D. is the relationship of diameter vs length and also weight. Longer skinnier things with more mass penetrate deeper than short fat things with same mass.

It's been proven. A 6.5 160 gr can out penetrate a 700 nitro.

It's been years since i learned about these relationships but the short story is ft/lbs thought of a a leading requirement to stop charging dangerous african game. So development of all these big 500/600/700 nitro express cartridges etc. and the ft/lbs were staggering but they found they were only knocking out some of these critters at best (the ft/lbs did that) but the projectiles were not going deep enough to get into the brain pans of elephants.

The relationship of s.d. to velocity wasn't there. The old standby of 375 h&h were out penetrating these big nitro magnums that ended up trying to push too short/fat/heavy a lead at not enough speed. They could solve that with more powder of course but then no one would likely survive the recoil and there'd be two fatalities.

So when you get the big picture of all that then you see the relationship is far more about s.d. and min impact velocity to drive it deep enough on the game intended. (assuming proper bullet construction equal and adequate also)

Ft/lbs becomes basically irrelevant in the equation. It's an impressive sounding figure but doesn't mean much.

Hard to comprehend a 160 gr 6.5 launched in the lower 2000 fps range can make the brain pan of an elephant but it does...and it does it because of the relationship of enough velocity and that huge s.d. of .328.

Back in the day ballistics was figured out by trial and error...scary thought. We have a much better understanding of how it all worked and why now. Now we can plan out cartridges so much better. Read....6.5 Grendel, Creedmoor, PRC etc.

Overachievers when you start rolling s.d.'s above .250 at those minimum impact velocities simply tell you max effective range for worst case scenerio planning and comparing.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Just because there is a forum dedicated to a specific cartridge, rifle style or bust for that matter does not automatically make it unknown to members of this forum, nor does it make it the end all and be all of anything .

If you like the Grendel fine, shoot it but there are members here that seem to think that because someone has done something with a specific cartridge it is the only thing that will kill properly .
The fact is that it is in a certain cartridge group and all within that group will kill efficiently and atecsccurate enough to be in a certain competitive discipline .
Going on abd on about how much better it is than something else is basically to me is about the same as a snake oil salesman .
It gets tiring . We are not a bunch of uniformed buffoons as some seem to make us out to be be here.
Cat

Ooh, the cornflakes got'er this morning did they?

This cartridge may have a forum but so do a lot of cartridges. This cartridge is discussed on any hunting related forum, quite a bit, especially anywhere they discuss AR's...that means all the u.s. based forums are well informed. You'll see if you poke around it's quite a bit more popular than you think.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sns2

Chuck, this is not supposed to be possible. How did that little gun ever do such a thing???

Yeah, and how could you possibly get a creedmoor over that 130gr .270? You're going to increase s.d. by how much and burn how much less powder?

It's just a move to more efficiency. I have a .270 i adore with 140's and it's stomped everything i've pointed it at too. Actually a couple .270's and a .270 wsm too. It was my fav by the numbers and why i went after them, and will always be a fan.

Buying now though it's a different ball game. The 6.5's are where the numbers would be, and are, taking me. Ton's of other people are going that way too, whether they fully understand why or not.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Yeah, and how could you possibly get a creedmoor over that 130gr .270? You're going to increase s.d. by how much and burn how much less powder?

It's just a move to more efficiency. I have a .270 i adore with 140's and it's stomped everything i've pointed it at too. Actually a couple .270's and a .270 wsm too. It was my fav by the numbers and why i went after them, and will always be a fan.

Buying now though it's a different ball game. The 6.5's are where the numbers would be, and are, taking me. Ton's of other people are going that way too, whether they fully understand why or not.

You do realize that sd is only a reference when comparing bullets of similar construction

A 140gr 6.5 bullet has the same sd whether it’s a Berger, A frame, or a solid

And i guarantee they all penetrate, expand and function differently
Yet they all have the same value

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Ooh, the cornflakes got'er this morning did they?

This cartridge may have a forum but so do a lot of cartridges. This cartridge is discussed on any hunting related forum, quite a bit, especially anywhere they discuss AR's...that means all the u.s. based forums are well informed. You'll see if you poke around it's quite a bit more popular than you think.

The difference is that you are pounding on this as it's the only cartridge around that can get things done.
Every time a new post comes up I click on it thinking there is some piece of usable data or some sort of worthy update and all there is is the same old crap.
C'ya, done with this useless piece of propaganda.
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You do realize that sd is only a reference when comparing bullets of similar construction

A 140gr 6.5 bullet has the same sd whether it’s a Berger, A frame, or a solid

And i guarantee they all penetrate, expand and function differently
Yet they all have the same value

Of course, we could really muddy these discussions if we get into that also. Again, personal preference, some like controlled expansion bullets, some like rapid expansion more frangible bullets. Some want high retained weight and some happy with added peripheral damage and have only half the weight left. I think it stands to reason that a delayed controlled expansion bullet will drive deeper than a more frangible rapid expansion bullet. There will be a relationship on penetration within that aspect alone. So I assume all these discussions take place comparing the same construction idea of each persons own individual preference. Just like i assume through these cartridge discussions that we are talking about the cartridge capabilities...not the shooters. Lots of ways to muddy the discussion.

There is also the school of thought around rapid expansion bullets behaving far more like controlled expansion bullets as they get near the minimum impact velocities. This is all for completely different discussions. Usually ends up two camps though...those who love the ballistic tip/amax stuff and those who love the barnes/partition/bonded stuff etc. Lets not muddy the waters with that.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The difference is that you are pounding on this as it's the only cartridge around that can get things done.
Every time a new post comes up I click on it thinking there is some piece of usable data or some sort of worthy update and all there is is the same old crap.
C'ya, done with this useless piece of propaganda.
Cat

Cat, sorry you feel that way. Not trying to ram things down peoples throats, just stimulate discussion, open minds, bring awareness of what's really popular in bigger gun/hunting centers than our own here. I'm a fan of so many cartridges, and ballistics period, i don't cut cartridges down, not sure where you're reading that. I just show differences and compare to old standards well institutionalized for easier comparisons. I have no pets, they all work well, i see them for the numbers and math, nothing more.

Peace.

[Stinky Coyote]

marky mark, another analogy of the s.d. thing might be easiest explained like this...

would you rather be slapped in the face as hard as one could, punched in the face as hard as one could, or poked in the eye as hard as one could?

same ft/lbs ke but quite different levels of penetration due to very different s.d.'s

i'll take the slap if forced to choose...the poke would be the last one i'd want lol

i'm sure there'd be a line up of guys here willing to deliver any of those haha

anyway, the data that matters most in ballistics for hunters isn't ft/lbs, it's you're preferred impact velocity, s.d., bullet construction, then you choose how much powder you need to take that projectile preference to how far you want it to meet your standards...you may not care about a lot of that and you don't have too as most normal cartridges we choose from will do it to much further than we need anyway

heck your preference may be highly weighted with point blank range so you may just want a 350-400 yrd laserbeam and could care less about the rest so to speak

the Grendel is not going to be many peoples first choice at all, but it's a great choice within anything burning that much powder! likely the best choice for anything burning that much powder

[marky_mark]

That’s kind of a botched effort to describe bullet frontal area
Totally different
It’s one of those math thingys that you not taking into account during your “calculations”



QUOTE=Stinky Coyote;3804945]marky mark, another analogy of the s.d. thing might be easiest explained like this...

would you rather be slapped in the face as hard as one could, punched in the face as hard as one could, or poked in the eye as hard as one could?

same ft/lbs ke but quite different levels of penetration due to very different s.d.'s

i'll take the slap if forced to choose...the poke would be the last one i'd want lol

i'm sure there'd be a line up of guys here willing to deliver any of those haha

anyway, the data that matters most in ballistics for hunters isn't ft/lbs, it's you're preferred impact velocity, s.d., bullet construction, then you choose how much powder you need to take that projectile preference to how far you want it to meet your standards...you may not care about a lot of that and you don't have too as most normal cartridges we choose from will do it to much further than we need anyway

heck your preference may be highly weighted with point blank range so you may just want a 350-400 yrd laserbeam and could care less about the rest so to speak

the Grendel is not going to be many peoples first choice at all, but it's a great choice within anything burning that much powder! likely the best choice for anything burning that much powder[/QUOTE]

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s kind of a botched effort to describe bullet frontal area
Totally different
It’s one of those math thingys that you not taking into account during your “calculations”



QUOTE=Stinky Coyote;3804945]marky mark, another analogy of the s.d. thing might be easiest explained like this...

would you rather be slapped in the face as hard as one could, punched in the face as hard as one could, or poked in the eye as hard as one could?

same ft/lbs ke but quite different levels of penetration due to very different s.d.'s

i'll take the slap if forced to choose...the poke would be the last one i'd want lol

i'm sure there'd be a line up of guys here willing to deliver any of those haha

anyway, the data that matters most in ballistics for hunters isn't ft/lbs, it's you're preferred impact velocity, s.d., bullet construction, then you choose how much powder you need to take that projectile preference to how far you want it to meet your standards...you may not care about a lot of that and you don't have too as most normal cartridges we choose from will do it to much further than we need anyway

heck your preference may be highly weighted with point blank range so you may just want a 350-400 yrd laserbeam and could care less about the rest so to speak

the Grendel is not going to be many peoples first choice at all, but it's a great choice within anything burning that much powder! likely the best choice for anything burning that much powder

[/QUOTE]



Dear Ballistician :

I currently own a 3/4 ton diesel pick-up and use it around the farm for a wide variety of chores and as a daily driver. The problem is that it burns a fair bit of fuel. Should I trade it off for a Suzuki Carry?

[marky_mark]

My bad
This could go on forever
I’m done with this thread and anything Grendel related

UOTE=Salavee;3804961][/QUOTE]



Dear Ballistician :

I currently own a 3/4 ton diesel pick-up and use it around the farm for a wide variety of chores and as a daily driver. The problem is that it burns a fair bit of fuel. Should I trade it off for a Suzuki Carry?[/QUOTE]

[Stinky Coyote]

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_beginners.htm

this one includes frontal area into the equations for those interested in all this stuff, word

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s kind of a botched effort to describe bullet frontal area
Totally different
It’s one of those math thingys that you not taking into account during your “calculations”

So there's a reason frontal area wasn't mentioned as frontal area. Frontal area is a calculation derived from the bullet diam. So it's included within the s.d. of as the first part of the information given...the said caliber.

a 6.5 mm bullet regardless of weight has the same frontal area, .055. But the s.d. changes dramatically as you put more weight behind that frontal area...

6.5 bullet at 88 grains of weight only has .180 s.d.
6.5 bullet at 161 grains has s.d. of .330

Increasing that front areal to a .308 cal bullet the frontal area goes up to .075 and then you need 219 grains of weight behind it to get that same s.d. as the 161 gr 6.5 bullet.....to get the same depth of penetration

so for a given weight, the skinnier it is, the deeper it goes...a 140 grain 7mm, vs 140 grain .270, vs 140 grain 6.5....the 6.5 out penetrates the the other two given same impact velocity

this is why the 6.5 160 out of a swede penetrates like a 375 h&h with 325 grains of lead with same impact velocities....yes there will be a bigger hole with the 375 but the swede got there too and made a hole, now if you straight up like bigger holes then have at the caliber you want but you can't question the penetration ability of like bullets without the s.d. being the top factor along with impact velocity

my math is fine, frontal area is covered in everything i've posted

[Dick284]

9 pages of blathering and chest beating.

Whodathunkit.

It’s a 6.5 cartridge, that’s all, if you like it then use it, and post some pictures of your successes while your at it.
It’s only a cartridge, not some religious belief, or is it!?

I think a few here need to watch this.

https://youtu.be/N1Sw8fe9hJI

[Stinky Coyote]

[Don_Parsons]

I'm buying in.

Nothing like hunting fast Grizzly Bears in BC at 752 yards.

It's all about shot placement.