Albertal Wolf Management

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Must not be the rut.....that was REALLY TAME

tm

You know how it is guys the "GUIDE" always tells the "HUNTER" what he wants to hear or you never hear the end of it. JJ

ill try harder for you guys next time sorry for the poor showing.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If what you say is true...I think the ranchers would be pretty happy that the wolves were kept alive for the study. It sure demonstrates their impacts on cattle under current summer grazing and winter feeding practices. It might offer them some very easy solutions to minimize wolves killing domestic cattle. As for hunter's dollars paying for depredation...kind of. That's another of those programs that was uncerimoniously dumped on the ACA. They have no choice but to administer it. Not all ACA funding comes from hunter dollars either. They have many other sources of funding. Either way, I'm sure when Adrea finishes her thesis, it will provide some critical information for managing cattle in wolf country and wolves in cattle country.

I'm not lieing. (sp. ? can't remember the last time I wrote that word, any writers around here?)

Hopefully something good comes of the effort of all involved.

Easy solution to stop wolves from eating cows, get rid of one or the other.

76% of ACA funding comes from hunting/fishing license levy. Stat from their own accounting, I posted that earlier.

[Horn Stretcher]

There was a show on National Geographic last week some guy from Poland left his family to go live with a group of wolves in an enclosure. Kind of a Timothy treadwell kind of guy. He was sent out to figure how to keep wolves from killing the farmers cattle, turns all you have to do is get some recorded wolf howls and play them back to them. what I want to know is who is going to send some one to study him.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm not lieing. (sp. ? can't remember the last time I wrote that word, any writers around here?)

Hopefully something good comes of the effort of all involved.

Easy solution to stop wolves from eating cows, get rid of one or the other.

76% of ACA funding comes from hunting/fishing license levy. Stat from their own accounting, I posted that earlier.

Wasn't accusing you of lying but sometimes things we are told by others and pass along are not always 100% factual....hence they may not be true It's just that I was told that a collared wolf in the study was killed as a result of cattle predation. Maybe what I'm saying isn't true...I'm just passing along what I was told.

And 24% doesn't....as I said, not all their funding comes from hunters.

[walking buffalo]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;523088]I will post later some compiled records of north american wolf attacks on people. It will surprise those that think it doesn't happen here, and the number of incidents are on the rise.
[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

..... but I don't think that human/wolf encounters is even an arguement for control. There are far more relevant arguements for that.

GO CANADA!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by thunderjet

I would be very interested to see the compiled records, .............. Pull those compiled stats

Originally Posted by sheepguide

X2 id like to see also!

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Some info. I found regarding wolves.

Mark Boyce, June 2008
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009...-mark-s-boyce/

http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/De...rk_S_Boyce.pdf

“In Alberta, for example, the provincial government estimates a current population of 7,000 wolves. Wolf harvest is by hunting and legal trapping on registered traplines where 400-800 wolves are removed each year, or about 10% of the population. This low harvest rate occurs even though there is no bag limit during the harvest season on the number of wolves that may be killed by hunters or trappers. Although the number of wolves killed by hunters and trappers is unregulated, this harvest does not limit the population of wolves.”

This is the first provincial population estimate for Alberta that I have found. 7,000 wolves in 2008.
Giving a conservative population growth of 24%, an accepted estimate, we now have a minimum of 11,000 wolves in Alberta, 2010, and the numbers are growing. 11,000 wolves @ 15 kills/year/wolf = 165,000 ungulates will be killed in 2010 by wolves.

This paper, which I posted recently, gives evidence that Pre-Columbian people in North America did not live with wolves, they were competitors for resources and life. Like wolves, Indians were an effective apex species.

http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Le...-withcover.pdf

Links to wolf attacks on people.

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/...chb13_full.pdf

http://pinedaleonline.com/wolf/wolvesandhumans.htm

http://wolfcrossing.org/2007/11/24/a...lled-canadian/

http://www.mtechservices.ca/Kenton/i...pic,110.0.html

Think those wolves following you were just curious? I’ll say stage f).
“Human-habituated wolves are those which have lost their fear of humans. It is a common phenomenon, in this country and in Europe and Asia. As reported in Wolves in Russia: Anxiety Through the Ages by Will N. Graves [here], wolf behavior follows a general habituation-exploration model. The progressive circumstances are:
(a) Severe depletion of natural prey.
(b) Followed by wolves searching for alternative food sources among human habitations.
(c) The brazen behavior of wolves increases due to the wolves being undeterred by and habituated to inefficiently armed humans (or ineffectual use of weapons or outright protection of wolves).
(d) Wolves shift to preying on pets and livestock, especially on dogs.
(e) Wolves stalk and kill livestock.
(f) Wolves commence deliberate, drawn-out exploration of humans on foot or on horseback.
(g) Followed by wolves confronting humans.
(h) Wolves attack humans.”

Some articles from Valerius Giest.
http://www.mtechservices.ca/Kenton/i...pic,110.0.html
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/200...ance-is-bliss/
Important to read this one.
http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Ge...-to-humans.pdf
This is a must read for those interested in hunting. IMO. The evolution of humans as a ‘hunter’, not a predator.
http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Ge...RS_2008%20.doc

Took a bit of time to put the post together, you guys asked for the info. Should I take it by the lack of reponses that you agree there is merit to my point. Wolves need to managed with the consideration of human safety, from both disease and attacks , as well as livestock and wildlife concerns.

[Tundra Monkey]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;526017]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wolves need to managed with the consideration of human safety, from both disease and attacks , as well as livestock and wildlife concerns.

No argument from this Monkey

tm

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;526017]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wolves need to managed with the consideration of human safety, from both disease and attacks , as well as livestock and wildlife concerns.

I dont beleive anyone disagreed with this they just stated that in "ALBERTA" wolf attacks are far from a common occurance. And that many confrontations can be contributed to just seeing and being close to a wolf and not actually a confrontation at all. Sure the odd wolf can be agressive but this isnt normal in our outdoors!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont beleive anyone disagreed with this they just stated that in "ALBERTA" wolf attacks are far from a common occurance. And that many confrontations can be contributed to just seeing and being close to a wolf and not actually a confrontation at all. Sure the odd wolf can be agressive but this isnt normal in our outdoors!

Sheepguide, It wasn't you, but another sheep felt my position regarding wolves as a threat to human life was not worth including as a position for wolf management. I'll give him some more time to respond, there is lots to read, and other things to do.

I believe that most, myself included, have forgotten reasons why wolves were persecuted throughout history. In the existence of Alberta, only recently have we had a large population of wolves, with a desire to live with them.

Valerius Geists papers give a valid reminder regarding the history of wolf/human interaction, and concerns for future problems if society doesn't pay attention to the past.

The point is, if people don't control the population of wolves now, then history shows that there will be more wolf attacks, especially on children, when alternative prey diminishes.

Proactive management VS Reactive management

[landowner]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The packs are very small in the sw corner of the province...some as small as two adults.

Her pack of two animals is BS. there was no collars and little study on those. I know personally of 8 wolves killed by hunters and landowners in her pack of "two". Wasted money with slanted views.

Originally Posted by landowner

Her pack of two animals is BS. there was no collars and little study on those. I know personally of 8 wolves killed by hunters and landowners in her pack of "two". Wasted money with slanted views.

She did talk about wolves coming in and out of BC but I don't think population dynamics was the focus of her study....it was diet so there could have been other wolves I'm sure. She was just concentrating on the diet of the study packs.

I'm not sure what you mean by slanted view..... It was a pretty well documented scientific study and it's always nice to have studies like this done in Mark Boyce's lab. I don't think there is better academic friend to hunters, anglers and trappers in this province.

[landowner]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

She did talk about wolves coming in and out of BC but I don't think population dynamics was the focus of her study....it was diet so there could have been other wolves I'm sure. She was just concentrating on the diet of the study packs.

I'm not sure what you mean by slanted view..... It was a pretty well documented scientific study and it's always nice to have studies like this done in Mark Boyce's lab. I don't think there is better academic friend to hunters, anglers and trappers in this province.

By stating that there was only 2 wolves in the Oil Basin pack , she is painting the picture that there is little problem in that area. Locals know that this pack dens in Waterton Lakes and hunts on Lease land, private land, and forestry. At the southend of the bowcrow sheep & mule deer populations have been hit hard. Wolves may not be the only reason , but they darn sure a big factor. Andrea mostly tried to study and collar these wolves in summer months, when the success rate is low. {that was the waste of money }. This pack isn't from BC, they are residents. Five pups were raised in this pack last summer. {4 now} Because she couldn't catch up to them she decided that there must be two from tracks etc. That isn't science, its a guess. Ranchers , trappers, and hunters have joined together to deal with this problem. We are willing to share information, to bad she wasn't.

Originally Posted by landowner

By stating that there was only 2 wolves in the Oil Basin pack , she is painting the picture that there is little problem in that area. Locals know that this pack dens in Waterton Lakes and hunts on Lease land, private land, and forestry. At the southend of the bowcrow sheep & mule deer populations have been hit hard. Wolves may not be the only reason , but they darn sure a big factor. Andrea mostly tried to study and collar these wolves in summer months, when the success rate is low. {that was the waste of money }. This pack isn't from BC, they are residents. Five pups were raised in this pack last summer. {4 now} Because she couldn't catch up to them she decided that there must be two from tracks etc. That isn't science, its a guess. Ranchers , trappers, and hunters have joined together to deal with this problem. We are willing to share information, to bad she wasn't.

I think if you review her data, when she talks pack size, she is only refering to adults not pups so it is very likely there were five pups. I never said the pack was from BC but there are lone travellers from BC. So seeing more wolves in the area than the actual pack size certainly isn't impossible. It seems any study regarding wolves is met with skepticism but I was impressed with the data she collected. It certainly sheds a lot of light on what wolves eat and from what I can gather, that's all she was attempting to do.

The data I saw covered both winter and summer and their diet change was noteable. There was one gap in the data from a collared wolf killed by F&W but from what I saw, it covered all seasons well.

I would think as a landowner that you'd embrace her study...it sure demonstrated how many cattle these wolves killed. You'd think if the study was that slanted that the numbers wouldn't have been that high.

[landowner]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think if you review her data, when she talks pack size, she is only refering to adults not pups so it is very likely there were five pups. I never said the pack was from BC but there are lone travellers from BC. So seeing more wolves in the area than the actual pack size certainly isn't impossible. It seems any study regarding wolves is met with skepticism but I was impressed with the data she collected. It certainly sheds a lot of light on what wolves eat and from what I can gather, that's all she was attempting to do.

The data I saw covered both winter and summer and their diet change was noteable. There was one gap in the data from a collared wolf killed by F&W but from what I saw, it covered all seasons well.

I would think as a landowner that you'd embrace her study...it sure demonstrated how many cattle these wolves killed. You'd think if the study was that slanted that the numbers wouldn't have been that high.

What I'm getting at is that she shouldn't have commented on the Oil basin pack at all, as she had no collars and very few sightings. She has zero proof that this pack is not hunting sheep in the south-end bow crow. Her real studies were all done on packs to the north of this area. Many hunters and cattlemen know this pack eats plenty of wild mutton. The Oil Basin pack has had a half dozen sub adults taken out since Andrea started her study.

Yes her studies of the packs in the north show lots of beef predation and that is good information. Too bad they let a collared female kill all summer long, before they took her out this fall. All in the name of science I guess. When researchers throw numbers around they should have solid science on ALL the packs they comment on. I have listened to her presentation too and except for her "guesses" on the Oil Basin pack it is very interesting.

Originally Posted by landowner

What I'm getting at is that she shouldn't have commented on the Oil basin pack at all, as she had no collars and very few sightings. She has zero proof that this pack is not hunting sheep in the south-end bow crow. Her real studies were all done on packs to the north of this area. Many hunters and cattlemen know this pack eats plenty of wild mutton. The Oil Basin pack has had a half dozen sub adults taken out since Andrea started her study.

Yes her studies of the packs in the north show lots of beef predation and that is good information. Too bad they let a collared female kill all summer long, before they took her out this fall. All in the name of science I guess. When researchers throw numbers around they should have solid science on ALL the packs they comment on. I have listened to her presentation too and except for her "guesses" on the Oil Basin pack it is very interesting.

She never discussed the Oil Basin pack in the presentation I saw and in fairness to her, she never commented on sheep either. That was just something that caught my eye.

[fish-man]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I totally agree. For people that don't spend a lot of time around these animals it can be very scary to be in close proximity to one but the actual threat is minimal. Wolf/human conflict is virtually non-existent in North America and I can't see it increasing any time soon. Most of the so-called documented cases are nothing more than a close encounter. The same with bears, cougars and bigfoot.

Well said. I've encountered a wolf any a lot of bears in pretty close quarters(unarmed) and while I felt bit shaky afterwards none of the animals were ever agressive. I have many friends who have done the same.

[pickrel pat]

RUN!! hide !! shoot !!! save yourselves !! the wolves are gonna eat you !!! One year there were so many snowshoe hares around, (they were thick), i thoght they were taking over.. they didnt. mother nature has a way of taking care of things that need to be taken care of. if you ask me, we are trying to balance nature to much as humans, maybe doing more harm than good!!! let mother take care of a few things herself.... like it was intended...

[Horn Stretcher]

for anybody with bell express view this show I was talking about before about wolves and how far people will go to study is going to on at 8 oclock on channel 524 geo. It will interesting to hear what you have to say about this charactor. It is called wolfman.

[thunderjet]

Sorry walking Buf, I have not had time to read this YET, but I intend too. Thanks for your efforts of pulling data. The statement of 'pull the stats on that' that I made previously, was refering to the attacks of large gaurd type dogs, my point being I would rather encounter the wild dog in the bush than a Rotweiller, pitbull etc in the concrete jungle.

Not having read your data as of yet, I would assume that attacks in Russia and Europe may have been caused by rabid animals for the most part. Again this may be due to an overpopulation and mother nature taking care of itself.

And I have never said wolves do not need to be managed, never once. The decline in trapping and snaring over the last 20 years I believe is the reason the numbers continue to climb. I worked in the Swanhills area for years, since the early eighties. Trappers had lines all around our area and to see a wolf, marten or fisher was a rare treat. Go out in that country today and it's no longer rare but to be expected!!

Having said that any given day in January we would count 14 moose and 30 deer on our field run. The pack that ran that area had 16 wolves in it. The pack that ran to the north had 20. I was fortunate enough to take 16 of them myself, so I am not saying we shouldnt kill them.

Many times when working on equipment I would look up and a wolf would be on lease edge watching, and I assume for everyone you see watching there was 4 or 5 you couldnt see. I would call this an encounter for sure, but not an attack, close call or anything of the sort !!!

I wonder if some would consider and tell people the opposite. Cat skinners clearing seismic line would often find wolves following them, for what reason who knows...more than likely curious.

I do not think we have an epedemic on our hands like many would like us to believe.

[walking buffalo]

Hi Thunderjet,

Glad your back. Thanks for your post.

Before I read the reports that I linked earlier, I did not consider that wolves were a great risk for attacking humans. The reading has me re-thinking this concern.

IMO, V. Geist is one of, if not the best ecologist in the business of environmental management. His thoughts are always worth considering.

The concern of high wolf populations is that if/when wild prey becomes limited, starving wolves, like bears and cougars, will resort to alternative prey for survival. Geist's warning is that if we don't accept this proven fact, we will have serious wolf/human incidents.

I do not think we have an epedemic on our hands like many would like us to believe.

I agree, but if we don't give present wolf populations due attention, we likely will.

[thunderjet]

Buf,

I agree somewhat, but I think attacks will happen with over population and disease, rabies to be specific. But at this time I do not think our game populations are in trouble where wolves are concerned....do you?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by thunderjet

Buf,

I agree somewhat, but I think attacks will happen with over population and disease, rabies to be specific. But at this time I do not think our game populations are in trouble where wolves are concerned....do you?

This was discussed with links to info earlier in this thread. My opinion, in certain areas, yes. Examples from links, Moose pop. down 30%, Yaha Tinda elk down from over 4000 to 600, 2010 ASRD helicopter wolf culling to protect caribou herd, Southern wolf study showing alarming % of kills on cattle.

I would like to keep a healthy pop. of ungulates for eating (hunting), viewing, and ecological balance. IMO there is a need to put increased effort to balance the increasing wolf pop. now, rather than live with the known consequenses if we don't.

I'm asking for Proactive Management rather than Reactive Management or as Sheephunter put it "Boom and Bust".

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This was discussed with links to info earlier in this thread. My opinion, in certain areas, yes. Examples from links, Moose pop. down 30%, Yaha Tinda elk down from over 4000 to 600, 2010 ASRD helicopter wolf culling to protect caribou herd, Southern wolf study showing alarming % of kills on cattle.

I would like to keep a healthy pop. of ungulates for eating (hunting), viewing, and ecological balance. IMO there is a need to put increased effort to balance the increasing wolf pop. now, rather than live with the known consequenses if we don't.

I'm asking for Proactive Management rather than Reactive Management or as Sheephunter put it "Boom and Bust".

Or is it alarming how many cattle are summer grazing in wolf country?

No doubt wolf populations are high and are very negatively affecting some of our ungulate population but it all comes down to how do you kill 3,000 wolves in a year and then continue a 40% harvest. Killing any less than 40% of a pack has virtually no effect on overall numbers and even then, it just opens the door for other packs to expand or establish new territory. It's a case of no matter how well intentioned, killing wolves could actually have a very negative impact on ungulate numbers depending on how packs redistribute. A very careful provincial strategy seems to be required before any large scale cull begins. Sometimes things done with the best of intentions have the most negative results. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just something we need to do with both eyes wide open.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Or is it alarming how many cattle are summer grazing in wolf country?

No doubt wolf populations are high and are very negatively affecting some of our ungulate population but it all comes down to how do you kill 3,000 wolves in a year and then continue a 40% harvest. Killing any less than 40% of a pack has virtually no effect on overall numbers and even then, it just opens the door for other packs to expand or establish new territory. It's a case of no matter how well intentioned, killing wolves could actually have a very negative impact on ungulate numbers depending on how packs redistribute. A very careful provincial strategy seems to be required before any large scale cull begins. Sometimes things done with the best of intentions have the most negative results. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just something we need to do with both eyes wide open.

Well heck then I guess we shouldnt even try if us killing some has no effect
Even if we dont kill 3000 and dont maintain a 40% harvest the more we get out there and try the better chance we have at reaching these numbers.
We all know a mass government cull isnt in the near future so unless we want to sit back and just watch and wait the only way we can move forward is as hunters and trappers trying to harvest as many as we can.

And what kind of point is... opens the door for new packs to establish or others to expand their territory? And killing wolves could have a negative impact on ungulates?
To me less wolves covering the same area is a way better deal than not harvesting any. Even if as hunters and trappers we only harvest 500-1000 it cant do anything but help. And the more guys we can get out there the higher this number will be.
Sure if we were to lower the numbers of wolves drasticly to the point that the numbers of ungulates sky rocket then it may be bad but how the heck can harvesting a few wolves hurt. You starting to hug trees there TJ?
SG

[conservationist]

I wonder where the often repeated mantra that wolves (and other predators) have a "natural fear of man" comes from?

It seems more logical that it is a learned fear due to our now superior weaponry, and when they loose that fear they do in fact become dangerous. There is no doubt that feeding predators helps them loose their fear in a hurry, but is the root cause of (still very rare) predatory attacks on humans not that we are made out of meat and they are carnivores? It sure would be easier for just about any toothy critter over a hundred pounds or so to take most of us down than than a healthy ungulate, so it just does not seem logical that predators would "naturally" fear humans. If they have never seen a human they might have a fear of something strange, but that would sooon disappear if no negative consequences aver arose. Comments? Links?

Harvesting the surplus seems like a good way to both minimize the boom and bust cycles and maintain some fear of humans in predator populations.
The government is too fearful of backlash from the "huggers" to help manage wolf populations, so while it may not be a totally effective, it can't possibly hurt for we hunters to get after them as much as we can. There is certainly no danger of us wiping them out! I'm with Sheepguide on this one.

[ganderblaster]

Sheephunter how much did your membership to PETA cost?You have me worried man!Around my uncles ranch in northern Saskatchewan his neighbour trapped over 100 wolves this winter by January they have no scientific studies to prove it but the trapper thinks the wolves are running out of animals to kill farther north and are heading south as there is starting to be an unbeleivable amount of wolves around there.

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Sheephunter how much did your membership to PETA cost?You have me worried man!Around my uncles ranch in northern Saskatchewan his neighbour trapped over 100 wolves this winter by January they have no scientific studies to prove it but the trapper thinks the wolves are running out of animals to kill farther north and are heading south as there is starting to be an unbeleivable amount of wolves around there.

As tempting as it is to trade personal insults with you, I think I'll pass. Read what I actually posted and you'll see I'm a proponent of a province-wide wolf cull but it needs to be done carefully or what's being done with good intention could backfire. If you are truely interested in my thoughts and the research I've done on wolf culls I'll hapily discuss it with you but if your only interest is to hurl personal insults, I think I'll take a pass.

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Sheephunter how much did your membership to PETA cost?You have me worried man!Around my uncles ranch in northern Saskatchewan his neighbour trapped over 100 wolves this winter by January they have no scientific studies to prove it but the trapper thinks the wolves are running out of animals to kill farther north and are heading south as there is starting to be an unbeleivable amount of wolves around there.

How about a picture of them 100 wolf pelts. What did he average per pelt?
Leg holds or snares? Bait stations or trails? How big is this ranch to have that many wolfs in one area? What is attacting them there cattle, deer , moose etc? How about some details on how he gets it done.

Originally Posted by sage 13

How about a picture of them 100 wolf pelts. What did he average per pelt?
Leg holds or snares? Bait stations or trails? How big is this ranch to have that many wolfs in one area? What is attacting them there cattle, deer , moose etc? How about some details on how he gets it done.

That is impressive for sure considering the average annual wolf harvest by all 3,000 trappers in Saskatchewan is 225. Cool that one trappers gets nearly 50% of them.

[thunderjet]

Originally Posted by sage 13

How about a picture of them 100 wolf pelts. What did he average per pelt?
Leg holds or snares? Bait stations or trails? How big is this ranch to have that many wolfs in one area? What is attacting them there cattle, deer , moose etc? How about some details on how he gets it done.

to add to that how big is his line, cause if got a hundred before January there must 3 to 4 hundred in the area......

[thunderjet]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Sheephunter how much did your membership to PETA cost?You have me worried man!Around my uncles ranch in northern Saskatchewan his neighbour trapped over 100 wolves this winter by January they have no scientific studies to prove it but the trapper thinks the wolves are running out of animals to kill farther north and are heading south as there is starting to be an unbeleivable amount of wolves around there.

Dude people on here a smarter than you think.........garbage!!!
Unless he is poisoning in a 5000 sq mile area!!!