Is SI necessary?

[silver]

I am looking at picking up a Helix 9 for next year, mostly for the Autochart. There is about 3 or $400 difference between the base model and the top of the line one with Side Imaging. Is the base model going to be good enough or should a guy spring for the SI ?
If you vote for the SI, what could it pick out that wouldn't show on Autochart?

[huntsfurfish]

I think SI is worth it.

Have it on both Lowrance and humminbird units.

Helps me find structure I would otherwise miss. Find rock piles, trees weeds etc.

I would not want to be without it!

edit: If you go with the Helix 9 dont install the transducer, you can send it in with an additional fee and get a transducer upgrade to the HDSI(but your transducer must still be in package(new).

Or you can wait and get a new Helix 9 G2. Reg Helix 9 price should drop some.

http://www.humminbird.com/Freshwater...tyle/HELIX_FW/

[RavYak]

What can SI show you that autochart doesn't? Is almost everything a good enough answer? lol

Autochart gives you a depth chart nothing more. Side imaging shows gravel beds, submerged trees, rocks, weeds and any other potential structure near the boat.

It can also show you drop offs etc that you might miss with autochart(would get eventually but only once you pass over it whereas with side imaging can see the drop off that you may have otherwise missed).

If set up properly it can show you fish too but my old fish finder can't be relied on in that sense, maybe the new ones are better though.

In short I like my side imaging, it is extremely powerful and has helped me catch more fish and is extremely useful when fishing new water bodies.

That all said it has limited effectiveness on many of our lakes here. Side imaging shows structure and if there is no structure there is nothing for it to show. On some lakes it is nearly useless but on others it can be very useful. So it all depends where and how you plan on fishing. Since you are spending 900 bucks to be able to create maps I assume you are trying to better learn the lakes you fish and trying to find new spots though which to me means 400 bucks more for the most powerful structure finding technology is a no brainer.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Jet

SI can be useful and it does show fish and schools of bait fish if you have a decent sized screen or can zoom in.

I believe this is my issue as I only have a 7 inch screen and the fish finder was one of the first side imaging models rolled out nearly a decade ago.

I will upgrade one of these days and I really like the Lowrance units, it is just too bad that their system is so bulky(requiring 2nd transducer sucks for kayakers) and expensive(Humminbird like half the price...).

Garmin has some interesting units too with mapping capability, side imaging etc. Their panoptix is probably one of the most powerful tools right now but expensive.

[huntsfurfish]

Also if you can swing it go Helix 10.
More money, bigger screen(you will appreciate it) and comes with HDSI transducer.
And if you go with the G2 series it has bottom hardness and vegetation detail.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I believe this is my issue as I only have a 7 inch screen and the fish finder was one of the first side imaging models rolled out nearly a decade ago.

I will upgrade one of these days and I really like the Lowrance units, it is just too bad that their system is so bulky(requiring 2nd transducer sucks for kayakers) and expensive(Humminbird like half the price...).

Garmin has some interesting units too with mapping capability, side imaging etc. Their panoptix is probably one of the most powerful tools right now but expensive.

Some units have the totalscan transducer eliminating the need for a second transducer.

As far as expensive, not if you compare HDS units to Onix both top end units. In your comparison you are likely comparing HDS to Helix.

I have HDS Gen 2 Touch's and Helix 10 and 1198's. Both Lowrance and Humminbird have their good points and bad.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Some units have the totalscan transducer eliminating the need for a second transducer.

As far as expensive, not if you compare HDS units to Onix both top end units. In your comparison you are likely comparing HDS to Helix.

I have HDS Gen 2 Touch's and Helix 10 and 1198's. Both Lowrance and Humminbird have their good points and bad.

Ok I am confused, from what I am reading it sounds like structure scan is now built into the gen 3 models(so no extra structure scan module unless you want structure scan 3d) and they have a total scan transducer that does everything and appears to work with all 3 HDS models.

So why are some of these units still sold with the 2nd transducer and cost more? Is it like the Humminbird thing where they have a compact and HD transducer(in other words is the total scan transducer less capable then the regular side imaging transducer)?

I always have compared HDS to Helix as Lowrance has nothing else comparable. Even now gen 3 HDS vs gen 2 Helix the capabilities seem to be pretty much the same yet HDS is twice as expensive.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Ok I am confused, from what I am reading it sounds like structure scan is now built into the gen 3 models(so no extra structure scan module unless you want structure scan 3d) and they have a total scan transducer that does everything and appears to work with all 3 HDS models.

So why are some of these units still sold with the 2nd transducer and cost more? Is it like the Humminbird thing where they have a compact and HD transducer(in other words is the total scan transducer less capable then the regular side imaging transducer)?

I always have compared HDS to Helix as Lowrance has nothing else comparable. Even now gen 3 HDS vs gen 2 Helix the capabilities seem to be pretty much the same yet HDS is twice as expensive.

HDS G3 units are touch screens(as are my G2's). The Helix G2 is new and has not hit shelves here yet(might be just hitting now). Gen 3 touch units been out for a year or 2 now. But there is no way I would choose Helix over my HDS units. The only reason I bought the helix 10 was for Autochart Live. Already had autochart pro for my Hum 1198's.

HDS units allow for more adjustments and tuning to suit the user. Most of which is not available to the Helix but is in the Onix.
HDS units G2 and up are CHIRP capable is another. Able to choose your sonar (eg 200 mhz only.) Helix pings 200, 83 plus si in rotation all the time. HDS allows me to run multiple fish finders on different frequencies with less interference. Thats just some of the reasons.

I dont like typing much anymore, but if you look up some threads, will probably give you more info.

Or stay tuned and I will post more.

Edit: I believe the other transducer is for high speed applications.

Nother edit: There are non HDS units that have totalscan transducer. One is Elite-7 Ti also a touchscreen, chirp di si. MSRP $649.00 US, $850.00 CAD?

http://www.lowrance.com/en-CA/Produc...-ti-en-ca.aspx

[Mudslide]

Humminbird has upped it's game considerably this year with the release of the new Helix G2 and G2N (N stands for Networking and Bluetooth) CHIRP models. Long story short G2 will now come with CHIRP sonar, AutoChart Live and the the G2N models 9,10 and 12 will come equipped with the New MEGA frequency Si and Di, the ability to network multiple units together and Bluetooth). With a frequency of well over a thousand KHZ the Si and Di images will be greatly improved. You still need to purchase at a minimum, a zero lines card and probably should get the computer program that works with it. Look for some good deals on last years models, but you have to go to at least the 9 to get AutoChart Live.

All that said, I still love my Lowrance touch units. and the Insight Genesis mapping works very well. There is a public database of maps from Alberta that is quite impressive. Newell and Crawling Valley are a couple of great examples. Look for Lowrance to respond with new features of their own some time this Spring. Lowrance has Wi-Fi built in to their units so you can mirror the screen on your phone or Ipad. I don't think you can do that with Humminbird.

I have two of my lightly used HDS Gen3 units for sale in the buy and sell section so I can upgrade next year and will probably do what Huntsforfish has done and run both for next season.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=305749


Navionics seems to be falling behind somewhat but still, a card with some detail on it is better than a blank screen.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Mudslide

Humminbird has upped it's game considerably this year with the release of the new Helix G2 and G2N (N stands for Networking and Bluetooth) CHIRP models. Long story short G2 will now come with CHIRP sonar, AutoChart Live and the the G2N models 9,10 and 12 will come equipped with the New MEGA frequency Si and Di, the ability to network multiple units together and Bluetooth). With a frequency of well over a thousand KHZ the Si and Di images will be greatly improved. You still need to purchase at a minimum, a zero lines card and probably should get the computer program that works with it. Look for some good deals on last years models, but you have to go to at least the 9 to get AutoChart Live.

This year and last year Humminbird took huge leaps with the Helix line. Lowrance doesn't really have anything that compares that is why I compare the HDS to Helix.

Fit and feel definitely isn't close and HDS wins hands down but capability wise Helix is right with the HDS at a fraction of the cost.

I guess it is like comparing a Toyota to a Lexus in some ways but until Lowrance comes out with some competition for the Helix line or price their HDS models more competitively I think they are going to lose a lot of new customers.

Originally Posted by Mudslide

Navionics seems to be falling behind somewhat but still, a card with some detail on it is better than a blank screen.

Speaking of Navionics they have some functionality that many people don't know about.

You can use sonarcharts live which allows you to make your own charts. I believe the charts are all shared with Navionics and used to upgrade their sonar charts data. It could be used in the same way insight genesis is but I don't think many people know about it.

I saw it by a kayak angler I know who is a Navionics rep. He made this video showing how it is done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzkEQx_UIY

I believe it is possible in real time as well as that is shown on their website.

http://www.navionics.com/en/sonarchart-live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHE8-i0KRpo

If I understand it all correct you could use Navionics sonarchart live on HDS Gen 3 models to create automatic maps. Something some of you guys might want to know and research before buying extra Helix units just for the autochart capability.

[Mudslide]

Originally Posted by RavYak

If I understand it all correct you could use Navionics sonarchart live on HDS Gen 3 models to create automatic maps. Something some of you guys might want to know and research before buying extra Helix units just for the autochart capability.

That's true but your information is automatically shared with the world. Also there is no easy way of transfer the mapping information to your HDS. I will be shocked if Lowrance doesn't introduce live mapping to their units at some point in the near future.

[32-40win]

Haven't had the chance to try it out yet, picked up a Garmin 7sv to try out. It has CHIRP and a sidefinder with a basic GPS setup on it. I don't really know whether or not it will improve things for me, but, there were times when my old Fishinbuddy would mark something on the sidefinder, that turned out to be worth casting to. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the more expensive models, just wanted to try something with the basics on it, see if the hype had any merit to it. Maybe it will show me something I missed close by, that is worth moving towards, maybe it won't, at least it can apparently mark some interest points to check out, in new places that I should be able to pinpoint a bit better this way. We shall see.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Mudslide

That's true but your information is automatically shared with the world. Also there is no easy way of transfer the mapping information to your HDS. I will be shocked if Lowrance doesn't introduce live mapping to their units at some point in the near future.

Yes Lowrance needs to introduce live mapping to stay competitive. Both Humminbird and Garmin already have it. Humminbird on their larger Helix series and Garmin on a wide range of their units.

For those interested in mapping but looking for a cheaper option and willing to live without side imaging and with a small screen Garmin has the echoMAP 45dv Chirp model. It only has a 4.3 inch screen but has colour, chirp sonar, down imaging, preloaded maps and you can make your own maps and can be found for under 500 bucks... I wish I could live with a small screen and no side imaging lol.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Jet

You mean like StructureMap? They had it first I believe.

At least, I was using it a good few years ago.

No, live homemade depth charts. Garmin has quickdraw countour and Humminbird has Autochart Live.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by silver

I am looking at picking up a Helix 9 for next year, mostly for the Autochart. There is about 3 or $400 difference between the base model and the top of the line one with Side Imaging. Is the base model going to be good enough or should a guy spring for the SI ?
If you vote for the SI, what could it pick out that wouldn't show on Autochart?

More is always better lol.

That being said, you have to ask yourself how you use your sonar and what type of fishing you'll be doing most.

There's a pretty big learning curve to SI, but once you put in the time to learn how to interpret it, SI is a great tool for finding structure, bottom composition changes, weedline edges (my favourite application) and once you really spend time with it, fish.

The problem is, SI is not very effective when used at actual fishing speeds. It's useless at low speeds (~0.5 mph or less). It will show you basics at slow speeds (0.5-1.5 mph), and reasonable clarity at trolling speeds (1.5-2.5 mph), but to get the kind of resolution you see in the fancy pictures on the internet, you need to be moving, ideally 4-7 mph.

If you're a basic sonar guy - turn it on, factory settings, and use it for depth and identifying fish arcs while jigging, bottom bouncing, etc..., SI won't be much help to you. The same thing is true if you primarily fish in shallow water (10' or less) or lakes without much structure. In that case, you might be better off spending that $3-400 on upgrading your rods/reels or your tackle.

If you troll a lot, fish a lot of structure, and you're keen to get everything you can out of your sonar and willing to put in the time to really learn how to use it, then SI is worth the extra $$$$.

[Wes_G]

Originally Posted by RavYak

No, live homemade depth charts. Garmin has quickdraw countour and Humminbird has Autochart Live.

Isn't that what Insight Genesis does?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Wes_G

Isn't that what Insight Genesis does?

Not live aka on the water. You have to take the data home and process it on a computer to build the map.

Garmin's quickdraw contour and Humminbird's autochart live literally create a map on your fish finder in front of your eyes while you fish.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

More is always better lol.

That being said, you have to ask yourself how you use your sonar and what type of fishing you'll be doing most.

There's a pretty big learning curve to SI, but once you put in the time to learn how to interpret it, SI is a great tool for finding structure, bottom composition changes, weedline edges (my favourite application) and once you really spend time with it, fish.

The problem is, SI is not very effective when used at actual fishing speeds. It's useless at low speeds (~0.5 mph or less). It will show you basics at slow speeds (0.5-1.5 mph), and reasonable clarity at trolling speeds (1.5-2.5 mph), but to get the kind of resolution you see in the fancy pictures on the internet, you need to be moving, ideally 4-7 mph.

If you're a basic sonar guy - turn it on, factory settings, and use it for depth and identifying fish arcs while jigging, bottom bouncing, etc..., SI won't be much help to you. The same thing is true if you primarily fish in shallow water (10' or less) or lakes without much structure. In that case, you might be better off spending that $3-400 on upgrading your rods/reels or your tackle.

If you troll a lot, fish a lot of structure, and you're keen to get everything you can out of your sonar and willing to put in the time to really learn how to use it, then SI is worth the extra $$$$.

I should have given more info on how I fish. I have a 16 foot Lund Alaskan with a 65 outboard jet on it. I don't live all that far from the NSR. My main focus would be the river now and an ocasional lake from time to time.
I have found a deep hole from time to time, I hope that with Autochart and maybe SI it would be easier.
If the work gods smile on me, there could be a boat more suitable for lake fishing in my future.
I want to thank you guys for your answers, you have been a help.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by silver

I should have given more info on how I fish. I have a 16 foot Lund Alaskan with a 65 outboard jet on it. I don't live all that far from the NSR. My main focus would be the river now and an ocasional lake from time to time.
I have found a deep hole from time to time, I hope that with Autochart and maybe SI it would be easier.
If the work gods smile on me, there could be a boat more suitable for lake fishing in my future.
I want to thank you guys for your answers, you have been a help.

I am not very good at fishing the river but in the experience I do have depth is usually secondary to river formations(eddies, inflows, current breaks etc), flow rates, bottom type etc.

Side imaging won't really help you to find the deep holes but what it will tell you is if the bottom is smooth, mud, gravel, rocky etc It will also show you sunken trees, boulders etc. Depth changes are usually difficult to notice on side imaging unless they are drastic, gradual slopes might give a slight change in the brightness of the bottom and it will give you an idea which side of the boat is shallower/deeper but at least in my experience it is next to impossible to know how much deeper(might be 6 inches, might be 6 feet).

[silver]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I am not very good at fishing the river but in the experience I do have depth is usually secondary to river formations(eddies, inflows, current breaks etc), flow rates, bottom type etc.

Side imaging won't really help you to find the deep holes but what it will tell you is if the bottom is smooth, mud, gravel, rocky etc It will also show you sunken trees, boulders etc. Depth changes are usually difficult to notice on side imaging unless they are drastic, gradual slopes might give a slight change in the brightness of the bottom and it will give you an idea which side of the boat is shallower/deeper but at least in my experience it is next to impossible to know how much deeper(might be 6 inches, might be 6 feet).

I am not very good at fishing the river either. I have found a few holes in the 10-15-20 foot range but I believe the current is so fast the fish can't stay in them. Maybe if I get out there enough I can find some holes, keep checking them and if the river course changes, a guy could have a deep spot without too much current.
It's a learning process.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by silver

I should have given more info on how I fish. I have a 16 foot Lund Alaskan with a 65 outboard jet on it. I don't live all that far from the NSR. My main focus would be the river now and an ocasional lake from time to time.
I have found a deep hole from time to time, I hope that with Autochart and maybe SI it would be easier.
If the work gods smile on me, there could be a boat more suitable for lake fishing in my future.
I want to thank you guys for your answers, you have been a help.

SI will help you find rock and other rubble that will hold fish.

But if you mount it below the bottom of the boat it may take some hits and you dont want that. You might want to mount it up so when you are on plane/step it is out of the water. You can leave the smaller/cheaper 2d transducer in for depth while on plane if you want.

Some channels change with the spring high water or floods and you may find your chart u built useless but can make another.

If I had a Jet for the river I would still want SI but that is me. Good luck on your decision!

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Some channels change with the spring high water or floods and you may find your chart u built useless but can make another.

Not useless, just inaccurate.It would still show all the detail but you would have to mentally adjust the numbers to know the actual depths. I would definitely try and do most of my mapping at similar flow rates so you have a consistent map though.

Definitely a good point about the transducer, the side imaging transducers are 300+ bucks and the river will beat them up. You might be best putting it on an adjustable arm but then you have to remember to lift it up every time you want to move.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Not useless, just inaccurate.It would still show all the detail but you would have to mentally adjust the numbers to know the actual depths. I would definitely try and do most of my mapping at similar flow rates so you have a consistent map though.

Definitely a good point about the transducer, the side imaging transducers are 300+ bucks and the river will beat them up. You might be best putting it on an adjustable arm but then you have to remember to lift it up every time you want to move.

If and when sand bars change or channels. Useless.

Redo or verify each year for your own safety.

[silver]

I want to thank you guys, there has been some good info here.

I am pretty sure I will go with the SI for now. Most of the river bottom will be sand or mud, but now and again a rock ridge will come out and it would be nice to track it a ways.

There has been a comment or two about what upgrades to get, I think that will have to be a whole new conversation.

There has been a comment or two about trusting last years charts, and no I do not. I would travel the old channels and see which ones are good and may be find some new ones.

Any way, thanks.

[diamond k]

Can you run two separate units at the same time. I was considering getting two units so I can run down imaging and side imaging at the same time. Will the signals from the seperTe transducers interfere with each other.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by diamond k

Can you run two separate units at the same time. I was considering getting two units so I can run down imaging and side imaging at the same time. Will the signals from the seperTe transducers interfere with each other.

I haven't done it but I believe you could just install the two fish finders and network them together. Alternatively you could use the money and buy a big enough screen to be happy with displaying both views at the same time.

Or you can do what you say and install 2 separate units but interference can be an issue and I don't know the particulars on how to avoid it. Huntsfurfish would know, he runs like 20 transducers on his boat lol.