Top Cop Gently Making Armed Self Defense Suggestion?

[Kanonfodder]

I disagree, others may agree with you

[Gust]

You are a hypocrite.

[Kanonfodder]

You are on a time out

[schmedlap]

My oldest son had the same question of me that I had asked myself. He is of the same age as the victims, a recent university graduate, and is not particularly (hell, not at all) versed in weapons or self defence. He was very perplexed at how one ordinary guy with a kitchen knife could manage to stab 5 people to death while a lot of people just like him were present and, seemingly (we do not, of course, know the spacial contexts), did not intervene. I hope that I am right in saying that if he or I were on the scene at the time the perpetrator would have found himself facedown on the floor, disarmed, and "pummelled" in pretty short order (?), as a consequence of the "shock", not in spite of it. I guess we will find out the facts, in due course, but I hope that they don't justify our initial perceptions of the other party-goers.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

You are on a time out

Banned is a time out?

Did I miss something?

[Kanonfodder]

Yea run ins with several mods

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

Yea run ins with several mods

K... just wondering.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Training, knowledge, skill and experience would all help if you have the will to implement them. It means zip if you don't have the guts to stand up to the bad guy. If you are being bullied, it won't change till you stand up to the threat.

And all our schools are teaching our youth not to stand up to bullies. If they do, they get in trouble.

All the kids get taught to do is run and tell a teacher who does nothing anyways, because their hands are often tied as well.

Lots of good came from the 3:10 meeting at the bike rack. Some kids found out they had friends they never knew they did, and they learned that they could stop a bully in his/her tracks by standing up to them. Life lessons that probably still guide them in adult life, for both the victim and the bully.

[Jimboy]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Shock may have prevented friends from intervening in stabbing: Chief Hanson


BY EVA FERGUSON, CALGARY HERALD APRIL 16, 2014


Calgary Police Chief Rick Hanson speaks to members of the media about the murder of five people at a house party on Butler Crescent NW in Calgary on April 15, 2014.
Photograph by: Leah Hennel , Calgary Herald
A group of 20 young adults might have been too shocked or too fearful to intervene during a horrific stabbing that killed five people early Tuesday, said the city’s police chief.

“These kids were all just out of school, having fun at this party, and completely not expecting anything like this to happen,” said Chief Rick Hanson.

“Some might have wanted to intervene, but others might have been too shocked, and others might have just wanted to leave.

“It’s not always easy to disarm someone who has a weapon, when you don’t have one yourself.”

Hanson said police are continuing to interview and re-interview the 20 people that were at the party at the time of the stabbing in the early morning hours of Tuesday.

Hanson stressed that he understands the community is asking questions, as they should, about why and how something so horrific could happen.

“And I know at some point we will have those answers.”

Beyond interviewing witnesses, police are looking into the details of the whereabouts of the man accused in the killing in the hours leading up to the crime, including his time at work and his state of mind. The man accused of the first-degree murders attended the party that evening as an invited guest.

“We need to know everything that happened leading up to this to help us understand what actually happened.”

Hanson confirmed that the police know the accused arrived at the party some time after his shift Monday at a northwest grocery store.

“In fact he arrived at the party wearing his smock ....”

It’s alleged the accused also brought a box cutter to the home, though Hanson would not say whether a box cutter was used in the crime.

“He arrived and then just visited with people.”

It’s still not clear what led to the fatal incident that was called in as a stabbing in progress at about 1:20 a.m.

For more information on the accused’s state of mind, police are also combing through his belongings and his online activity.

“We are looking through all of this computers, all of his cellphones, his electronic devices, anything that is relevant. We will go anywhere we need to investigate and gather evidence.”

Hanson asked the families of those 20 kids that were at the party to seek out any psychological help they need through the police’s victim assistance unit or Alberta Health.

“I wish I had this pearl of wisdom to impart to parents that would guarantee that this would never happen again. But I don’t and I can’t.

“These were good kids, in a safe place, but then suddenly this happened.”


I'd like to have a beer with the Chief. Of all the cop interviews I've ever read this guy makes the most sense. At least he isn't clamouring for a knife ban like the dip****s in Saskatoon and Edmonton.

KIDS? they were all over 20,23/24

[hillbillyreefer]

I think the media chose to use the words youths and kids to give a bit more sensationalism to the story. Pathetic, this story doesn't need any more sensationalizing.

Gust I'd ask you point out where I said anything about using firearms or anything else for self defense in this thread.(edit: I guess you won't be replying) In fact I went ahead and found actual police training videos showing how useless a firearm is in a knife attack situation. I backed up what Huntinstuff said earlier.

[huntinstuff]

I used an electric Taser knife to "kill" 8 policemen in 6 seconds in a training scenario.

I know first hand how fast it can happen.

Ive seen guys stabbed that thought they had been punched or slapped only to realize they are bleeding out.

One Somalian kid was sitting on a couch with his guts hanging out, telling me that a guy punched him. I said it must have been one f$@& of a punch because your intestine is on your knee.

He lived. Crapped in a bag for months but lived

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

I used an electric Taser knife to "kill" 8 policemen in 6 seconds in a training scenario.

I know first hand how fast it can happen.

Ive seen guys stabbed that thought they had been punched or slapped only to realize they are bleeding out.

One Somalian kid was sitting on a couch with his guts hanging out, telling me that a guy punched him. I said it must have been one f$@& of a punch because I think your intestine is on your knee.

He lived. Crapped in a bag for months but lived

Bingo.

Knife fights are short fast and bloody.

We trained with magic markers so only tip contacts left a mark but that was enough to leave a lasting impression.
A guy can do a lot of damage in a very short period of time with a knife.

[Morbius131]

This is absolutely disgusting that people would sit there and do nothing. With that said, fear, shock and disbelief are very powerful controls of behaviour.

I have also seen demonstrations on how quickly someone with a knife can kill or seriously harm numerous victims so I can understand that it was likely over before most people realized.

Tough to judge without being there but I would hope I would do what I think I would have.

Morb

[rugatika]

I can remember seeing some police video or something when I was a kid, and the guy was basically saying that within 20 feet (can't remember the exact distance), he would way rather face someone with a gun than a knife.

[brownbomber]

Pretty tough to say how people react.
Ever been in a fistfight? Ok. Nothing goes as planned. Add in being drunk or high and it's tougher to do anything right.
If it's developing slow then people have time to react and "get up" for confrontation. As in earlier threads I've been in a couple situations where a person pulled a weapon and was ktfo but there was a buildup there were outside voices used etc, everybody was aware of what was happening.
What if this kid just walked into the kitchen and picks up a knife and starts stabbing ? Pretty tough to react when you are in the process of realizing what's happening.
Anyway another example. I know a guy who was a bouncer at a club in edmonton and got shot and survived, others were fatalities... Some of you may recall the incident a while back now and I get huntinstuff was there or knew people were there. This fella I know huge guy, says he didn't even really know he was shot and why other people went down until he was down when he for some reason couldn't get back up. Now a handgun is loud and ugly from close range so something quiet like a knife??? A lot harder to get outta the daze maybe??
Who knows? Unless you're there.
Sure wish somebody coulda stopped him though.
I guess the details will be clear one day and we shall all know.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I can remember seeing some police video or something when I was a kid, and the guy was basically saying that within 20 feet (can't remember the exact distance), he would way rather face someone with a gun than a knife.

The video was probably "Surviving Edged Weapons"

Dan Inosanto.

Probably the best knife video of its time.

Made me sick

[Unregistered user]

Hanson is without a doubt the best top cop in Canada. We are lucky to have him serve our community.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Hanson is without a doubt the best top cop in Canada. We are lucky to have him serve our community.

agree

[falroy]

Of the twenty or so guests at the house party I am sure they were not all in the same room. it would be very possible that the six of them were in the kitchen and they were the only ones in that room at the time. It is very easy to speculate without knowing all the details.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Morbius131

This is absolutely disgusting that people would sit there and do nothing. With that said, fear, shock and disbelief are very powerful controls of behaviour.

I have also seen demonstrations on how quickly someone with a knife can kill or seriously harm numerous victims so I can understand that it was likely over before most people realized.

Tough to judge without being there but I would hope I would do what I think I would have.

Morb

Have you ever been attacked?

I'm not talking about a push and shove in a bar either.

I mean by someone yelling and screaming ...spittle flying out of their mouths and armed?

Those people did exactly what 99% of people would do and always would have done.

There are countless examples of the phenomena and good well understood reasons why people react that way.

Anyone here that thinks they would have behaved otherwise ...having no realistic personal experience from which to draw upon is lying to themselves.

Also... those kids are barely cold....their friends and families may be online here and I to find it troubling that so many here are not able to be a bit more tactful when posting.

I recall a similar tragedy a few years back when a member lost his niece when she was shot by someone claiming to be defending his family and property.
People had strong feelings about that then but... we managed to tone it down a bit out of respect for that mans grief.

These are or were real people...their families pain is real.

This is news.
It is supposed to stimulate thought but it is not supposed to be exploited for our entertainment or our political expediency.

I hope this thread dies to stop the furtherance of hurt that is already unimaginable for those impacted.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Have you ever been attacked?

I'm not talking about a push and shove in a bar either.

I mean by someone yelling and screaming ...spittle flying out of their mouths and armed?

Those people did exactly what 99% of people would do and always would have done.

There are countless examples of the phenomena and good well understood reasons why people react that way.

Anyone here that thinks they would have behaved otherwise ...having no realistic personal experience from which to draw upon is lying to themselves.

Also... those kids are barely cold....their friends and families may be online here and I to find it troubling that so many here are not able to be a bit more tactful when posting.

I recall a similar tragedy a few years back when a member lost his niece when she was shot by someone claiming to be defending his family and property.
People had strong feelings about that then but... we managed to tone it down a bit out of respect for that mans grief.

These are or were real people...their families pain is real.

This is news.
It is supposed to stimulate thought but it is not supposed to be exploited for our entertainment or our political expediency.

I hope this thread dies to stop the furtherance of hurt that is already unimaginable for those impacted.

Well said. No need to question why these people did or did not do anything. Those people your questioning just lost 5 of their friends, lets remember that.

[Matt L.]

You have to admit that society has become more a stand back and film it rather than act in the past decade or so BDB. I'm not saying you're wrong though. I have absolutely no idea how I'd react in a similar situation and frankly nobody does until they're forced to find out.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

You have to admit that society has become more a stand back and film it rather than act in the past decade or so BDB. I'm not saying you're wrong though. I have absolutely no idea how I'd react in a similar situation and frankly nobody does until they're forced to find out.

I've seen one armed aggressive and loud guy control 10 trained killers including myself when he caught us all off guard and half asleep.

It was only an exercise scenario but everyone sort of looked at each other wondering if "someone" was going to do something.

After...we all sort of laughed about it.... we could have pounced on him easily but nobody wanted to stand out in our little herd.
Its human nature.
The baddy had been taught how to intimidate and how to counter it...we...(all very junior at that time) had had no such training nor had any of us ever been in a situation quite like that one before.

Later I took additional training that helped me to understand that and to overcome that tendency.

No different than every bank robbery or hostage taking.... its really really had for people to overcome their need to be part of the group and not stand out..especially when things are coming at them really fast.

[RBI]

I must be missing something , everybody is talking about how 20 people presumably did nothing to try to stop what was happening , implying that they would have been in the same room ( within view ) when things were going down. I myself have yet to see ,hear , or read anything that states that that was or wasn't the case.
It was a House party .... multi rooms , floors etc. Who says that victims weren't dealt with one at a time , ie one in the kitchen , one in a bathroom , etc . The news reports that A phone call , came in at , what was it ... 1:32am , if everybody was witnessing the stabbings , and not busy jumping on the suspect , wouldn't the report state that multi calls flooded 911 .

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I hope this thread dies to stop the furtherance of hurt that is already unimaginable for those impacted.

I think this thread should die. There is nothing new since the OP and there is only speculation. It can do nothing but hurt.

[Trout Man 82]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Lots of experience knife fighting and with a possibly deranged or criminal
mind, eh? Or did you just sit in your chair and think really hard about it and then decide "heck I know better than the experienced cop on this subject so I'll just rattle this off and look like a hero....."

I have trained a lot in edged weapon defense, both empty hand and with edged weapons, stick/baton, improvised weapons. This included a lot of study into what kinds of attacks can be the most fatal. It is true that the majority of knife attacks require many stabs to kill someone assuming that person can get professional help relatively quickly. It can take dozens of slashes to the center of mass to kill someone.

[Trev]

You won't always be able to protect yourself from these senseless acts all the time, no matter what you are carrying

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Trout Man 82

I have trained a lot in edged weapon defense, both empty hand and with edged weapons, stick/baton, improvised weapons. This included a lot of study into what kinds of attacks can be the most fatal. It is true that the majority of knife attacks require many stabs to kill someone assuming that person can get professional help relatively quickly. It can take dozens of slashes to the center of mass to kill someone.

I don't intend to get on the Interwebz and start telling people I think I am a ninja, but your study seems to lack a bit I definition. First, you just casually used stabbing and slashing in your statement as if they are synonymous and for at least 4000 years now we know that they are not. A few professional soldier eons ago found that stabbing was ridiculously more effective at killing than slashing.
Secondly, with a blade the size of a kitchen knife one solid to the upper abdomen or chest will result in death in a few minutes tops untreated the gross majority of the time. If this was untrue, I wouldn't archery hunt anymore.
And the MAJORITY of knife attacks do result in multiple wounds because of the speed at which they can be delivered effectively. Pretty hard to gather relative evidence when the other side of the teeter-taughter is so desperately unbalanced.

For goodness sake folks, just stop armchairing the other folks in attendance at this party. The person that did this obviously had intent when he arrived given what we know. Maybe someone smart enough to get accepted to law school knows how to look up anatomy and how to use a knife. We get the impression things did happen fast, and unless you are prepped to deal with some thing like this all of the time good luck going Captain America on the spot. Hope for all your sakes your short sighted theory of self reflection is never tested.

[raab]

Originally Posted by rem338win

I don't intend to get on the Interwebz and start telling people I think I am a ninja, but your study seems to lack a bit I definition. First, you just casually used stabbing and slashing in your statement as if they are synonymous and for at least 4000 years now we know that they are not. A few professional soldier eons ago found that stabbing was ridiculously more effective at killing than slashing.
Secondly, with a blade the size of a kitchen knife one solid to the upper abdomen or chest will result in death in a few minutes tops untreated the gross majority of the time. If this was untrue, I wouldn't archery hunt anymore.
And the MAJORITY of knife attacks do result in multiple wounds because of the speed at which they can be delivered effectively. Pretty hard to gather relative evidence when the other side of the teeter-taughter is so desperately unbalanced.

For goodness sake folks, just stop armchairing the other folks in attendance at this party. The person that did this obviously had intent when he arrived given what we know. Maybe someone smart enough to get accepted to law school knows how to look up anatomy and how to use a knife. We get the impression things did happen fast, and unless you are prepped to deal with some thing like this all of the time good luck going Captain America on the spot. Hope for all your sakes your short sighted theory of self reflection is never tested.

I don't think myself or trout man are saying anything regarding whether the kids should or shouldn't have done something. I think its just that were trying to explain the amount of time this must of took. I don't want anyone thinking I'm saying these kids should have reacted and didn't. Because for all the public knows they did react when they realized what was going on and made the suspect flee.

But in saying that we shouldn't be saying this was a 10 second stabbing that left 5 dead by an untrained teenager with a large cumbersome knife. And if he did indeed stab them in the chest unless it was perfectly placed and he hit the heart or aorta that stab wound would have been survivable for the 10-15 minutes it takes for EMS to get on scene, same with the upper abdomen unless he hits the aorta its survivable if managed fairly quickly. The fact that all 5 died from their wounds, to me anyways, means the suspect took more time to ensure that he inflicted fatal wounds to all the victims. Instead of the alternative which would be sporadically stabbing anyone in close proximity.

[Trout Man 82]

Originally Posted by rem338win

I don't intend to get on the Interwebz and start telling people I think I am a ninja, but your study seems to lack a bit I definition. First, you just casually used stabbing and slashing in your statement as if they are synonymous and for at least 4000 years now we know that they are not. A few professional soldier eons ago found that stabbing was ridiculously more effective at killing than slashing.
Secondly, with a blade the size of a kitchen knife one solid to the upper abdomen or chest will result in death in a few minutes tops untreated the gross majority of the time. If this was untrue, I wouldn't archery hunt anymore.
And the MAJORITY of knife attacks do result in multiple wounds because of the speed at which they can be delivered effectively. Pretty hard to gather relative evidence when the other side of the teeter-taughter is so desperately unbalanced.

For goodness sake folks, just stop armchairing the other folks in attendance at this party. The person that did this obviously had intent when he arrived given what we know. Maybe someone smart enough to get accepted to law school knows how to look up anatomy and how to use a knife. We get the impression things did happen fast, and unless you are prepped to deal with some thing like this all of the time good luck going Captain America on the spot. Hope for all your sakes your short sighted theory of self reflection is never tested.

I am very aware of the difference between stabbing and slashing, I only brought it up as a second thought.

Most kitchen knives are slashing weapons (if used as a weapon), it is much easier to penetrate bone/get past ribs with something like an arrow then something with significant width.

I am sure you are right about the professionals realising the difference as well, but most people are not professionals.