Sheep Part 3

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

If they are getting allot of hunting pressure or predator pressure in one area they will move out from it.

SG has been asking about the traditional wintering ranges and the lack of sheep on them. In all the hubbub I neglected to discuss that aspect. (I started once but it was on the wolf thread and didn't move over here with it.) With a species that is intolerant of human interaction it does not need to be hunting pressure. If there is an intolerable increase in human activity or an increase in predator pressure the animals will move to new areas. This was highlighted vividly in the Yellowstone wolf re-introduction effort where the elk populations overcrowded marginal habitats leaving much better traditional rangeland untouched because it did not have sufficient escape cover.

Increased human access/activity, increased wolf/cougar numbers and abandoned traditional range does not seem like an unexpected situation. Certainly not one that would implicate a need to reduce hunting pressure as a first remedy.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by pdfish

Wouldn't this be considered a conditioned response as well? In the past, when pressured, they headed away from the pressure. It doesn't matter if its a national park or a farmer's field, if there's no pressure, thats where the animals will head. NO rational thought, just instinct, plain and simple.

Conditioning involves a thought process, whether it be humans or animals. Some may be more complex than others, but none the less it still involves a rational thought. Do humans not have a conditioned response? As a kid, didn't you ever stick your finger in a light socket or receptacle and think "damn that hurt, I don't think I should do that again"? What is so different with an animal. Same as humans, intelligence is gained in animals as age increases (or so we hope). There are many hunters out there that will continually kill 130" whitetails, while the ones that have spent the time to learn how a whitetail "thinks" will continually kill larger, more mature deer.

[sheepguide]

God now your talking whether sheep can think. Who really cares the reason but they do know where the park boundry and santuary borders are. Anyone thst wishes to dispute this shows a total lack of knowledge of all our biggame animals. Whether its thought or instict it is a fact.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

SG has been asking about the traditional wintering ranges and the lack of sheep on them. In all the hubbub I neglected to discuss that aspect. (I started once but it was on the wolf thread and didn't move over here with it.) With a species that is intolerant of human interaction it does not need to be hunting pressure. If there is an intolerable increase in human activity or an increase in predator pressure the animals will move to new areas. This was highlighted vividly in the Yellowstone wolf re-introduction effort where the elk populations overcrowded marginal habitats leaving much better traditional rangeland untouched because it did not have sufficient escape cover.

Increased human access/activity, increased wolf/cougar numbers and abandoned traditional range does not seem like an unexpected situation. Certainly not one that would implicate a need to reduce hunting pressure as a first remedy.

Can you show us where it was stated that reduced hunting of rams would increase overall population.
I never said we need more mature rams because the overall population is low.
Just where are you going with this. You seem to just repeat things that have been discussed already.
My comment on winter range had ZERO to do with my maturity thoughts.
If you can show me facts that the sheep on these winter ranges have just moved to different areas then thats fine but you dont honestly know the exact reason. Maybe its wolves pushing them, maybe the population is down?
Truth is you do not know.


So just what is your NEW point here.
You just keep following, maybe one of these days you and 209 will be able to have one of your own unborrowed unserched thoughts. Maybe.

Everyone here has stated and agreed that the first aspect of any managment plan should be predator control and habitat enhancment.
You are not showing anything new or that isnt common knowledge.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

And again you brought this up in relation to sheep how? My comment to Justin stands, Disney lied to him and bambi really couldn't talk. His belief that sheep know the park boundaries is and consciously decide not to cross is what started all this. If the sheep were that brilliant maybe we could get them to teach the hunters the boundaries, how to age and judge horn length. He is giving a non thinking animal a whole lot of credit for reasoning abilities that it doesn't have.

That is funny.I never said that at all.I think they do know the boundries.If you and another got shot at maybe one of you got killed would you ever go back there???? I bet even a stupid sheep could figure that out.Like sheepguide has stated you have no proof on anything you just flap your gums about everything. You and your buddy are the greates super hunters and we are all idiots.Really you know what you are a fraud.You can tell this all to my face. I will be at the banquet.



Wow Look at all the people after me that think you need to do less talking and learn somthing first then talk..

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

That is funny.I never said that at all.I think they do know the boundries.If you and another got shot at maybe one of you got killed would you ever go back there???? I bet even a stupid sheep could figure that out.Like sheepguide has stated you have no proof on anything you just flap your gums about everything. You and your buddy are the greates super hunters and we are all idiots.Really you know what you are a fraud.You can tell this all to my face. I will be at the banquet.



Wow Look at all the people after me that think you need to do less talking and learn somthing first then talk..

Have you saw a sheep shot out of a herd? "If you keep your head down you could kill several easy the sound of the rifle shot the other sheep falling doesn't bother them much. Stand up and they see you and then they'll spook."
I learnt that from Dewey Browning at the head waters of Ranger Creek.
It has held true on all the sheep I've shot or seen shot. Sheep are used to loud noises, thunder, lightening and rock fall, sound on its own doesn't scare them much. If they can see the source of the noise that can be another matter.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Have you saw a sheep shot out of a herd? "If you keep your head down you could kill several easy the sound of the rifle shot the other sheep falling doesn't bother them much. Stand up and they see you and then they'll spook."
I learnt that from Dewey Browning at the head waters of Ranger Creek.
It has held true on all the sheep I've shot or seen shot. Sheep are used to loud noises, thunder, lightening and rock fall, sound on its own doesn't scare them much. If they can see the source of the noise that can be another matter.

Guess 209 read my late neighbors book It works sometimes but isnt a prooven science. Ive seen lots of rams take off at the shot. Sometimes they will mill around but usually only if they dont know where the shot is due to echos. They dont run due to the fact that they dont know where the danger is. Hmmm kinda like they are thinking

Since 209 doesnt talk to me due to he has no answers ask him what basin in Ranger. Ask him if Dewey was guiding then. Ask him what year.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Guess 209 read my late neighbors book It works sometimes but isnt a prooven science. Ive seen lots of rams take off at the shot. Sometimes they will mill around but usually only if they dont know where the shot is due to echos. They dont run due to the fact that they dont know where the danger is. Hmmm kinda like they are thinking

Since 209 doesnt talk to me due to he has no answers ask him what basin in Ranger. Ask him if Dewey was guiding then. Ask him what year.

maybe I'm on ignore also! If not he can now see your post

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Guess 209 read my late neighbors book It works sometimes but isnt a prooven science. Ive seen lots of rams take off at the shot. Sometimes they will mill around but usually only if they dont know where the shot is due to echos. They dont run due to the fact that they dont know where the danger is. Hmmm kinda like they are thinking

Since 209 doesnt talk to me due to he has no answers ask him what basin in Ranger. Ask him if Dewey was guiding then. Ask him what year.

Also curious what 209 was doing up the Ranger with Dewey Browning.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by steve

Also curious what 209 was doing up the Ranger with Dewey Browning.

Well unless it was alot of years ago, he wasnt.

[ishootbambi]

you guys might be slower than 209 if you expect an answer to a question. by my count he has answered 2 in 3 threads. i try not to hunt boundary areas a whole bunch because it is so frustrating, but if you think animals dont know where they are safe, look at the elk in suffield and cypress hills. they stand 50 yards from the fence in the wide open every day. call it conditioning or thinking or whatever fancy word mr thesaurus wants to come up with, but they know.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

you guys might be slower than 209 if you expect an answer to a question. by my count he has answered 2 in 3 threads. i try not to hunt boundary areas a whole bunch because it is so frustrating, but if you think animals dont know where they are safe, look at the elk in suffield and cypress hills. they stand 50 yards from the fence in the wide open every day. call it conditioning or thinking or whatever fancy word mr thesaurus wants to come up with, but they know.

Oh we dont expect an answer as his little story has a couple things in it that dont really go together.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Have you saw a sheep shot out of a herd? "If you keep your head down you could kill several easy the sound of the rifle shot the other sheep falling doesn't bother them much. Stand up and they see you and then they'll spook."
I learnt that from Dewey Browning at the head waters of Ranger Creek.
It has held true on all the sheep I've shot or seen shot. Sheep are used to loud noises, thunder, lightening and rock fall, sound on its own doesn't scare them much. If they can see the source of the noise that can be another matter.

So when was that??? I really want an answer on this one..

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

So when was that??? I really want an answer on this one..

Ha, so I should care what you really want? It was a great visit, Dewey was setting up camp for a weekend family campout. He said it was one they did every year. I helped him put a little air into a quad tire that was soft and we had coffee and bs'd about life for hours.

[sheepguide]

At least he didnt say Dewey was hunting in that area cause I would have had to call B.S.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Ha, so I should care what you really want? It was a great visit, Dewey was setting up camp for a weekend family campout. He said it was one they did every year. I helped him put a little air into a quad tire that was soft and we had coffee and bs'd about life for hours.

Thanks for the answer. I still think you dont know what you are talking about when it comes to boundries.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

At least he didnt say Dewey was hunting in that area cause I would have had to call B.S.

ya you are right on that one.

[whitetailhntr]

Originally Posted by JustinC

Thanks for the answer. I still think you dont know what you are talking about when it comes to boundries.

You seem to know lots about nothing and not much about anything...

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by whitetailhntr

You seem to know lots about nothing and not much about anything...

Whats your opinion on sheep and park boundries Whitetail? Where have you watched sheep around park boundries?

[whitetailhntr]

Not a sheep hunter in the least but i do agree with the instinct of animals seeking safe haven..... was not the point of my comment.I will resume to my position of watchin from the outside of this thread.

Back to your regular shceduled programming

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by whitetailhntr

You seem to know lots about nothing and not much about anything...

You must be one of 209's superstar hunting partners.I dont care what you think I know the real truth.Thanks for you BS repy.

[noneck180]

Point was taken

[albertaboy]

To get a better sheep population how do we do it? I am told burns dont work but how else to improve the winter ranges? Planting alfalfa on the mountains, i dont think that is an option. What about dropping feed in hard winters? Has that happened for sheep before? Do we do more transplants to get some sheep on the ranges that they have dissapeared from? SG do you know why the sheep disappeared from those ranges? is it disease, can we vaccinate sheep? Is it just preditation or other reasons?Can we collectively get the non resident sheep tags numbers reduced?Is that even a possibiblity?
I am just looking for different information and ideas because i think the waiting times and draw horses have been beatin to death and then some. What else can we do?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Justin,,

You say just enough to keep you yourself from getting booted. I for one am sick of your tough guy remarks, where is sheep convention/supper?

lolololololol. all right noneck....justin will meet you at the swings at recess and lets settle it. grow up already.

[walking buffalo]

This thread WAS worth reading until all the 10 year olds came out to play.

No disrespect for real 10 year olds intended.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by noneck180

Justin,,

You say just enough to keep you yourself from getting booted. I for one am sick of your tough guy remarks, where is sheep convention/supper?

I never said I was a tough guy.I am sick of 209 and his I know everything atitude.He wants to make everybody look stupid.I for one am sick of it.All the guy does is talk down to people and put down every idea in the world with out any of his own ideas.He always is just getting off the phone with all these important people that told him nothing and he come on here and bla bla bla.BUT NO FACTS.


So what is your point? I thought you wanted to end our differences?

[noneck180]

Back to the Sheepshow, I will just keep watching, for now

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by albertaboy

To get a better sheep population how do we do it? I am told burns dont work but how else to improve the winter ranges? Planting alfalfa on the mountains, i dont think that is an option. What about dropping feed in hard winters? Has that happened for sheep before? Do we do more transplants to get some sheep on the ranges that they have dissapeared from? SG do you know why the sheep disappeared from those ranges? is it disease, can we vaccinate sheep? Is it just preditation or other reasons?Can we collectively get the non resident sheep tags numbers reduced?Is that even a possibiblity?
I am just looking for different information and ideas because i think the waiting times and draw horses have been beatin to death and then some. What else can we do?

Im not sure why the sheep numbers are way down in the areas I talked about. The habitat is actually better now in my mind as the elk have all but left these areas. They are huge south facing slopes with very little snow in the winters. Im sure predators arent helping. I dont think the outfitter is any issue here as he hasnt shot more than a total of 3 rams in the last 2 years. Thats out of 16 possible. Disease? I dont think so as no one has been seing much for dead sheep and I know many guys that frequent this area in the summer and fall and a few in the winter.
Just doesnt make a guy feel all that positive when you used to see a hundred head or so in a valley and now your lucky to see 20. And this is a few different valleys.
Maybe the easier winters has kept them from traveling but this area had a pretty healthy ewe population in the summer also and that has dropped significantly also.
So no im not sure what the main issue is.
SG

[Bowhunter]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Hi Gary

I have been reading your posts and quite frankly I have some serious concerns. In the post above you seem to have done a little backpedalling in regards to APOS’s influence with the Government. At first you mentioned that APOS does not have a disproportionate advantage when influencing the government’s wildlife management practices; then in the post above you claim that “their executive are on the ball getting the foot in the door to look after their interests”. This is where the problem lies; “their interests”. Since APOS is a business first “their interests” are often at the expense of resident hunters. Let’s not beat around the bush here, APOS would make a lot more money if there were fewer residents to compete with. A great example of this is in Waterfowl outfitting industry and how it has squeezed out the resident hunters. Please don’t take my word for this, feel free to call any F&W officer who works along one of the major flyways and they will be more than happy to confirm this. Gary, you may not have had the opportunity to read all 1800 posts on the various sheep threads, but there is strong evidence that a member of APOS back-doored the 5 year wait plan through a resident hunter club. This of course has raised some concerns regarding this issue.

I like Kelly as well and personally think she is a great person. I however, will not let my personal, emotional attachments to an individual influence my judgement when looking at the big picture. The simply fact is, there’s a conflict of interest, plane and simple. I would hope that you would not let “your” personal feelings effect your judgement especially when you’re on the executive of a hunting organization whose members are comprised of mostly of resident hunters. Sometimes in life we have to pick a side and not fence sit. As a long time member of the ABA I question where your loyalties lie. Are you an outfitter or are you affiliated with APOS somehow?? Whose side are you on? Your member’s would like an answer. No fence sitting Please.

To those who know me, I've never been accused of having a picket up my ass. For the most part, I am an observer on here. I have rarely posted. I got into this "conversation" because I viewed the comments of some to be unfounded and without merit in reference to Kelly Semple. I know Kelly, her accomplishments on behalf of resident hunters and her work to advance hunting for the future. Case in point, Kelly received the Pope & Young Club Conservation Award in 2009. The award is given to an individual to recognize achievement by a person or organization in the promotion of the future of bowhunting and hunting, the image of bowhunting and hunting, and the conservation and wise use of our natural resources. All that said, I found it ludicrous to accuse her, by inference, of being against residence hunting.


No back pedalling either. Outfitters are part of the equation....like it or not. Common sense and knowledge of how things work will tell you that they are a stakeholder. As I stated, they are at the table when it comes to game management. You are correct in saying that I didn't read everything said...I have better things to do with my time than listen to the same "what's in it for me", closed minded thinking and utterances that goes on here. Believe me....It would be great if hunters were the only players in this but unfortunately that is not the case. Therefore all stakeholders will be heard by government...again like it or not. That is the fact and there is nothing that you or I can do about it. Because of the process in place and the watchdogs in "our organizations, I am certain and maintain my assertion that APOS does not have a disproportionate advantage. Being advised that they were first up to bat, I conceded that the APOS exec are doing well to represent their members. That's all...an observation.

There is no debate with me that the existence of outfitting takes tags away from resident hunters....that is obvious. The fact of the matter remains...they exist and aren't going away. As such they will be at the table, asking for what they perceive is their piece of the pie. Knowing that reality, the organizations that represent the rest of us have to do their part to ensure that our piece of the pie does not get smaller.

As to the waterfowl notation....sorry, I don't know of what you are referring to. I stopped hunting birds years ago.

I have no knowledge about your back door reference. Was that member successful or is it still part of consultation? What did the club/organization do about it to defend our position?

Back to Kelly and your last paragraph. You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to me and my ability to take my personal feelings out of the equation and look at any matter objectively. By your assertion, you also demonstrate that you don't know Kelly as well as you think you might. Perhaps you are projecting your own limited ability to look at things objectively. Kelly is a professional. Her advancement of HFT, her demonstrated credentials, the things I mentioned above and her actions over many years supports the fact that a conflict of interest does not exist there. For those reasons, myself, the ABA and many, many others believe that and continue to work directly with her to advance opportunities by resident hunters through HFT and support of other organizations.
To your closing comments....again...you obviously don't know me and have clearly based your entire comment on your inability to look objectively at the person but instead go for the easy guilt by association profiling. As well, you demonstrated an inability to understand the big picture and understand the process because of unfounded bias and acceptance of the fact that certain entities exist and must be dealt with accordingly.
With respect to whose side am I on....I invite you to read any of my articles in our magazine, any of my reports outlining the successes and activities as Traditional and then North Director of the ABA, my participation on the AOC in the beginning and as an ABA rep. You will quickly learn what side I'm on. You might also want to ask around....you'll quickly learn who I am and what I stand for.
I invite you to respond but I will not continue any further discussion or debate about Kelly and conflict of interest. If I have not swayed your opinion there....that's on you. I know of what I speak and have made a stand to point out stated misconceptions. I think it's clear that I have no problem taking a stand....and I am pretty proud it's been on the right side.

Gary McCartney

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

I never said I was a tough guy.I am sick of 209 and his I know everything atitude.He wants to make everybody look stupid.I for one am sick of it.All the guy does is talk down to people and put down every idea in the world with out any of his own ideas.He always is just getting off the phone with all these important people that told him nothing and he come on here and bla bla bla.BUT NO FACTS.


So what is your point? I thought you wanted to end our differences?

You do realize Justin that the view changes depending on who's shoes you are standing in? From my shoes I'm just as tired of your know it all attitude, putting everyone down that doesn't agree with you and your incessant whining - parroting (maybe I should call you Alex!) the same senseless drivel over and over, that you can't even claim you came up with. If an original idea ever appeared in your head it would die of loneliness.
There, now that we've exchanged insults did we accomplish anything? LOL!!