The PCR Dilemma

[Commander B]

i do agree that the majority are as Bee says but have seen some smaller and larger than the average. all fish are very clean as also previously posted.

B.

[Commander B]

i suport moving some to another lake as the catch rate per angler hour is outrageous, 30 to 40 fish an hour from a boat. Eagle, chestermere, badger are lakes that could support eyes and would welcome the boost in my op.

B.

[Kim473]

Originally Posted by WayneChristie

bored too eh? I dont think in any case the government would allow keepers in PCR, since they have a consumption warning for the mercury, would it not open up liability issues? Then again, you can keep pike and burbs there, and Twin Valley and they have a mercury warning as well.

How many water bodies in Alberta don't have a mercury warning, 10% maybe. They sure must have done a lot of gold panning in the 1800s around here. LOL

[Darren57]

Every burb we pulled out of there last winter had a belly full of shrimp. I dont think they are starving. Mabey they are just so happy to get something other than shrimp on the menu that they will try anything LOL.

[slivers86]

Originally Posted by Darren57

Mabey they are just so happy to get something other than shrimp on the menu that they will try anything LOL.

Could be very true. Those burbs are pigs.

[freeones]

Originally Posted by slivers86

I say keep it as it is. Its a great place for families to go, within distance of both lethbridge, calgary, okotoks, highriver and surrounding areas. You can camp overnight, catch plenty of fish from shore (for those who cannot afford a boat). I've seen plenty of happy faces when children catch fish there non-stop.

Keep it C&R, and leave it as the lone place other than a couple of ponds where a 3 yr old kid can sit on the dock, and be guaranteed he'll catch his first fish, like most of us, under a bobber with grandpa at his side

X2. There is no "Dilemma".

I hope people just leave well enough alone when it comes to PCR. There's no other place like it to take kids and new fisherman and introduce them to walleye fishing. The joy and passion for fishing I've seen in people, including my own kids, after a day on PCR is priceless. People get hooked on fishing by catching fish, not by spending all day on the shore or in a boat hoping to catch one or two big ones. (That comes later lol.) There are plenty of other lakes to go to if you're after trophy fish.

It's an amazing fishery, and unless it shows real signs of collapse, it should be left as is. In my opinion, it's plenty healthy, I've seen very few signs of disease or mutations (no more than any other lake I've fished a lot) after catching hundreds and hundreds of fish, and I'd say that 95%+ of them put up a good fight for their size and look very healthy. I think they'll hit just about anything, not because they're starving, but simply because competetion in the lake is fierce and you're dangling an easy meal in front of them.

Are all the fish nearly identical in size? Yeah. Is their recruitment? I don't know. I have seen some smaller fish (10-12") and I have seen some slightly bigger ones (18-20"), but they are few and far between. There are some big pike in there, and the odd hammerhandle too, so I would say the pike are self sustaining.

Regardless, I think PCR is a gem, and I would oppose any regulation changes to the lake in an attempt to "improve" it. Lots of people, myself included, have paid good money to fly into northern SK or AB to experience EXACTLY the kind of walleye fishing that PCR offers. No one is dreaming up reasons or ways to tinker with the regs on those lakes.

There is recruitment, strong initial age classes and low growth rates though. If the government would have went through with a few more of the initial reccomendations (forage base of perch or whitefish) the lake likely would have performed better. It would be tough to add additional forage now, the only thing i think should be done is reduce the burbot limit, drastically (said this years ago in central alberta at a limit of 3, many burbot populations classified as collapsed now, problem in Pine Coulee, they don't really want them in there anyways).
As for walleye age class, i can't remember the exact configuration but its basically intended water levels allow spawning every couple years to maintain the population, spawning conditions are not optimal every year. It is a reservoir first.

[BobLoblaw]

Originally Posted by Commander B

Chub i would say there are three year classes. 10" to 14", 15" to 17" majority, and the odd 18" ,19" or maybe they are more productive feeders. wondering if this corrisponds to previous stockings as natural recruitment is questionable?. Clearly this will never be a trophy lake,i think the major food source is shrimp. the pike on the other hand have excelent potential.

wierd that the burbs are all relitivly similar in size aswell.


B.

The burbs are not ALL small. I say a 9.5 pound burb on the ice a couple years ago...

[Darren57]

Every burb i hav seen or seen a pic of has been about 1-2 pounds in the last 3 years. Someone i met there once said there have been 20 pounders in earlier years. Could very easily have been a fish story though.

[Dan Foss]

There is the odd large burb in there. But most seem to be around the same size. And I am not sure if I would call the burb population in there collapsed. From my observations, there are just as many burbs in there as walleye. Icefishing there last year almost caught 1 burb for every 1.5 walleye.

As for starvation, It is hard to say. The walleye in there are stunted and there appears to be primarily one year class with maybe a a bit of variation (there are a few every trip that are noticeably bigger/smaller than average). However, as beeguy stated, I wouldn't necessarily call them skinny. They are a healthy color and for there size, seem to be a healthy rate. That said, they will take anything infront of their face which suggests competition is high.

[0liver]

stock the place with whites. end of storey.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by 0liver

stock the place with whites. end of storey.

If scuds are the primary feed in the lake, wouldn't this increase the competition even more?

[iliketrout]

If a lake full of stunted perch is a problem, how is a lake full of stunted walleye not a problem?

Don't get me wrong, the fact that anyone can go there and catch 100+ eyes in a day is great, especially for young kids starting out. But in my mind, a healthy and sustainable fishery is one with clear signs of recruitment of all species of fish, natural reproduction and predation, successful spawning every year, differing age classes of all fish, and a good food source.

The fact that the competition for food is so high is a sign to me that there is not enough natural food sources. But I'm no biologist.

I'm sure some will disagree with my definition of a healthy fishery, so my question is: Is PCR a healthy, sustainable fishery? Put aside your thoughts on if it's a good place for kids to go, and how much fun it is to get triple digits in one day. And I'm not asking if we should do anything. Just wondering if people think this is a healthy and sustainable fishery.

[aulrich]

The walleye would only be stunted if they were actually spawning and the last info I have seen was that they are not. Now the lack of a large prey base will keep the size down (see spray lake lake trout) but that is not stunted, theat is just the imit of the system.

It would be nice to see a some prey introduced but that will not happen. I was surprised there were no rockies in there when they made it, the pike and burbs were locals I would have thought that rockies would have been there too.

[Dan Foss]

healthy and sustainable? no. I have seen no signs of new year classes. I am just unsure if it is a food issue. or a space issue. or what. the actual condition of the fish seem to be rather healthy. but the fishery as a whole. definitely not. which is too bad because it is a nice lake to fish.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by aulrich

The walleye would only be stunted if they were actually spawning and the last info I have seen was that they are not. Now the lack of a large prey base will keep the size down (see spray lake lake trout) but that is not stunted, theat is just the imit of the system.

It would be nice to see a some prey introduced but that will not happen. I was surprised there were no rockies in there when they made it, the pike and burbs were locals I would have thought that rockies would have been there too.

Spray Is an interesting topic and I do not mean to derail from the PCR portion. But I believe it someone still falls under a similar category. So you believe that spray is at its carrying capacity due to the lack of predators?

[iliketrout]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Spray Is an interesting topic and I do not mean to derail from the PCR portion. But I believe it someone still falls under a similar category. So you believe that spray is at its carrying capacity due to the lack of predators?

Not to derail further but below is taken from the following link (and is admittedly outdated) http://sunsite.ualberta.ca/Projects/...age=Biological

"The lack of appropriate prey for lake trout in the reservoir has led them to survive almost exclusively on plankton and midge larvae. Only 2% of 51 fish caught in 1986 had fish in their stomachs. The scarcity of fish in the diet of lake trout is likely one reason why the lake trout in Spray Lakes Reservoir die younger and are smaller at all ages than lake trout in lakes with abundant forage fish such as Lake Minnewanka (Stelfox 1988)."

My guess is that the few lake trout that do attain a healthy size (remember the 17lb'er posted on here a while back) eventually get to a size where they can prey on juvenile whitefish and then are able to grow faster once they reach that point. Until then all we can do is feed them smelt and occassionaly hook one or two as well! (BTW of the ~8 or so lakers I kept from Spray last year, every single one had a smelt in it, and they all looked like superstore smelt).

Back to PCR, my guess is that something similar is happening there.

[aulrich]

If they spawn I would not be surprised if it ended up like spray but who knows.

The lake as it is is a special place, even if they have to restock every few years it's sustainable enough.

[Dan Foss]

Yes I have read that before, Good post Iliketrout. I just reread that article again for a refresher. It is outdated but still very much applicable. Does anyone remember what year they drained spray? I thought it was late 80s but I cannot recall. I know it is not listed on that sight.

How you explained it was perfect. They feed on small bugs and plankton and only a few out of every year class make the jump to be able to feed on the juvenile whites and cuts. This is a lake I feel would benefit majorly from a stocking of forage fish. They tried to introduce cisco in there one year and it failed. Any idea what would be able to survive in that lake to transition this gap?

[WalleyeDeitz]

Originally Posted by slivers86

I say keep it as it is. Its a great place for families to go, within distance of both lethbridge, calgary, okotoks, highriver and surrounding areas. You can camp overnight, catch plenty of fish from shore (for those who cannot afford a boat). I've seen plenty of happy faces when children catch fish there non-stop.

Keep it C&R, and leave it as the lone place other than a couple of ponds where a 3 yr old kid can sit on the dock, and be guaranteed he'll catch his first fish, like most of us, under a bobber with grandpa at his side

This is well put and I agree 100%. It’s the one place I regularly take kids (and adults) in the boat that are new to fishing and know, and I mean know with 100% certainty, that we will have an amazing time fishing and the kids will be hooked for life. My 3 year old daughter caught about 20 in an hour amongst playing with everything else in the boat, all on her own, with the exception of unhooking them. My brothers 2 kids who are new to fishing together caught well over 100 fish in the same hour and spent the whole ride home gleaming about what a great day it was and now keep asking when I can take them fishing again. I must admit, sometimes I wonder if the fish are starving but I got to say, I absolutely love having this lake out the back door.

[npauls]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Yes I have read that before, Good post Iliketrout. I just reread that article again for a refresher. It is outdated but still very much applicable. Does anyone remember what year they drained spray? I thought it was late 80s but I cannot recall. I know it is not listed on that sight.

How you explained it was perfect. They feed on small bugs and plankton and only a few out of every year class make the jump to be able to feed on the juvenile whites and cuts. This is a lake I feel would benefit majorly from a stocking of forage fish. They tried to introduce cisco in there one year and it failed. Any idea what would be able to survive in that lake to transition this gap?

I think shiners or chubs would may be a good option. They won't take over like a perch would and seem to be in quite a few of the still waters around southern Alberta.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by npauls

I think shiners or chubs would may be a good option. They won't take over like a perch would and seem to be in quite a few of the still waters around southern Alberta.

survive the cold temps?

[npauls]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

survive the cold temps?

I can't see why not. They survive every winter in the other waters.

Whitefish may be another possible option. Just stock a ton of small ones so they have some eating size right off the bat and hope that enough survive to grow big enough to spawn and keep a self sustaining population in there. Those are about the only 3 species I could see even being an option. Maybe small rainbows or cutties would be another option.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by npauls

I can't see why not. They survive every winter in the other waters.

Whitefish may be another possible option. Just stock a ton of small ones so they have some eating size right off the bat and hope that enough survive to grow big enough to spawn and keep a self sustaining population in there. Those are about the only 3 species I could see even being an option. Maybe small rainbows or cutties would be another option.

there are already thousands of whites in there so that would be useless. Ill grab my bucket and steel some chubbs from lake sundance........



anyways, back to PCR...........

PCR also has a large population of suckers in it as well, correct?

[npauls]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

there are already thousands of whites in there so that would be useless. Ill grab my bucket and steel some chubbs from lake sundance........



anyways, back to PCR...........

PCR also has a large population of suckers in it as well, correct?

I am not to sure about a large population of suckers. If it did you think the walleyes and burbot would have a better growth rate. There is also suppose to be some trout in pcr but I guess its not enough to make a difference for the predators to grow faster.

[BeeGuy]

If the walleye and burbot are already feeding on inverts because there is essentially no piscine prey available, I do not see how introducing baitfish will increase the amount of forage available for the predators.

If whites are introduced they would be eating 10kg of inverts to make 1kg of whitefish biomass.

This would essentially remove 9kg of potential forage for the walleye.

The only way the whitefish would make up for this loss is by being many factors more efficient than the walleye at feeding on the inverts. Thereby increasing the overall forage base by utilizing invert prey which would have been 'wasted' by the inefficiencies of walleye predation.

What may end up happening is, a large proportion of the invert prey is converted into whitefish which in turn puts a huge stress on the walleye and only the walleye which adapt to feeding on whitefish survive.

This scenario could very well lead to starvation in the huge walleye population.

Anyways, overtime we will see a decrease in the walleye population due to fishing mortality (not insignificant), pike, bird, and wakeboarder predation etc.

This will lead to small increases in overall size.

Who knows, maybe the odd individual will break the threshold and start feeding preferentially on other walleye as some of the pike have.

Several people have commented on the lack of recruitment.

I wonder if there are any appropriate spawning areas in this reservoir?

[horsetrader]

Have not fished this area myself, but there seems to be a large volume of anglers at do fish it. The only problem there seems to be just as many opinions about the fishery as there is anglers. I would love to see a real bio like TyreeUm chime in and see if he could straighten out some of the confusion.

[WayneChristie]

Maybe we can stock bass, then the walleye can eat them until they get big enough.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by horsetrader

Have not fished this area myself, but there seems to be a large volume of anglers at do fish it. The only problem there seems to be just as many opinions about the fishery as there is anglers. I would love to see a real bio like TyreeUm chime in and see if he could straighten out some of the confusion.

what's it take to be a real bio? a PhD?

[Daceminnow]

Originally Posted by slivers86

I say keep it as it is. Its a great place for families to go, within distance of both lethbridge, calgary, okotoks, highriver and surrounding areas. You can camp overnight, catch plenty of fish from shore (for those who cannot afford a boat). I've seen plenty of happy faces when children catch fish there non-stop.

Keep it C&R, and leave it as the lone place other than a couple of ponds where a 3 yr old kid can sit on the dock, and be guaranteed he'll catch his first fish, like most of us, under a bobber with grandpa at his side

Originally Posted by freeones

X2. There is no "Dilemma".

I hope people just leave well enough alone when it comes to PCR. There's no other place like it to take kids and new fisherman and introduce them to walleye fishing. The joy and passion for fishing I've seen in people, including my own kids, after a day on PCR is priceless. People get hooked on fishing by catching fish, not by spending all day on the shore or in a boat hoping to catch one or two big ones. (That comes later lol.) There are plenty of other lakes to go to if you're after trophy fish.

It's an amazing fishery, and unless it shows real signs of collapse, it should be left as is. In my opinion, it's plenty healthy, I've seen very few signs of disease or mutations (no more than any other lake I've fished a lot) after catching hundreds and hundreds of fish, and I'd say that 95%+ of them put up a good fight for their size and look very healthy. I think they'll hit just about anything, not because they're starving, but simply because competetion in the lake is fierce and you're dangling an easy meal in front of them.

Are all the fish nearly identical in size? Yeah. Is their recruitment? I don't know. I have seen some smaller fish (10-12") and I have seen some slightly bigger ones (18-20"), but they are few and far between. There are some big pike in there, and the odd hammerhandle too, so I would say the pike are self sustaining.

Regardless, I think PCR is a gem, and I would oppose any regulation changes to the lake in an attempt to "improve" it. Lots of people, myself included, have paid good money to fly into northern SK or AB to experience EXACTLY the kind of walleye fishing that PCR offers. No one is dreaming up reasons or ways to tinker with the regs on those lakes.

Originally Posted by WalleyeDeitz

This is well put and I agree 100%. It’s the one place I regularly take kids (and adults) in the boat that are new to fishing and know, and I mean know with 100% certainty, that we will have an amazing time fishing and the kids will be hooked for life. My 3 year old daughter caught about 20 in an hour amongst playing with everything else in the boat, all on her own, with the exception of unhooking them. My brothers 2 kids who are new to fishing together caught well over 100 fish in the same hour and spent the whole ride home gleaming about what a great day it was and now keep asking when I can take them fishing again. I must admit, sometimes I wonder if the fish are starving but I got to say, I absolutely love having this lake out the back door.

it's all well and good boys no doubt. but for how long? i too enjoy an afternoon there with the family both on the ice and in the summer. i think there should be some concern though as to how long a good thing can go on for if there's no changes observed with the fishery. i lived up north and have experienced the recent downfall of both pigeon and calling lake. i'm not suggesting there's the same issues with PCR or even a problem. but, i don't believe we can be ignorant to the fact that the good thing of today with a continued zero harvest and no significant age classes being observed will last forever. i just can't see how. again i'm no bio dude, just a fisherman who has observed a few things over the years. i think this is what the OP is inquiring about. i'm sure although he says he's never fished the waters i'm sure his children or possibly his grandchildren have, and them along with the three of you and myself all would like to enjoy the PCR of today for years to come. the question is, when might it be too late to preserve what we enjoy today?

Dace