Sheep on a Draw?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Through the grapevine I've heard that F&W thinks too many rams are being harvested and that populations are getting too low. They are considering a five-year wait period because......"It would have the least impact on recreational opportunity and still provide a reasonable opportunity to harvest a ram."

The one thing that SRD does have is very comprehensive harvest data when it comes to Bighorn rams. What WMU, date, hunter, etc; it must all be in a database somewhere?

I would be curious what the ratio of the yearly harvest is comparing first time ram harvest, to multiple harvests by the same hunter?

There must be some data showing guys are killing their second, third, and fourth rams comparing to first time ram killers?

Who knows, but with a 5 yr wait on the table this would be the assumption?

You'd hope they'd taken all that data into account but I'm guessing they haven't...at least in regards to hunters harvesting multiple rams. And really, so what if guys are......should there be a penalty for being good at what you do.

The othe thing worth considering is that these guys on the five-year break won't be able to stay out of the mountains and I'm sure they'll be more than eager to go along with other sheep hunters with tags and help them spill blood. Regardless of whose knowledge put the hunter on the sheep or who pulled the trigger, the ram is still dead. How again will this five-year wait reduce harvest????? Maybe a ban on stepping foot in a 400 zone from August1-October 31.

The other thing that bother me is that if I get drawn in a limited entry area and kill a ram....I'd still have to sit out 5 years in the general areas. Not only will they be penalizing the skilled but they be penalizing the lucky.......tell me again why this is a good thing?

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I totally disagree. In 24 years I've killed three rams but I oppose any legislation that would have kept me out of the field for more than one year after killing a sheep. Just because I have a tag in my pocket doesn't mean I'm going to kill a ram but it does give me the opportunity to be in the field and kill a really big ram if I see one. Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

There are a couple basic flaws I see with longer wait times. First, I'm really not convinced there is a problem with guys shooting too many rams but even if there is, and it's a big is, why penalize those that work hard and learn about sheep hunting. I haven't killed many big whitetails so perhaps successful whitetail hunters should sit out five years. Either that or I could get off my lazy butt and hunt them harder. Second, if the guy who killed a ram two years ago is kept out of the field, does F&W really believe that someone else isn't going to come along and kill that same legal ram. I don't see this a reducing harvest at all. It may assist some of the unsuccessful sheep hunters in harvesting a ram but some time and hard work could do that as well.

Why penalize a guy that works hard and is successful?

I have to agree, I've killed 4 rams in 25 years, don't penalize me because I'm successful. It seems this is more about the unsucessful hunters wanting more rams out there for them to shoot. The original post was about short rams being shot. That's all about educating the guy pulling the trigger. I learned how to judge rams, everyone else can too.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

The one thing that SRD does have is very comprehensive harvest data when it comes to Bighorn rams. What WMU, date, hunter, etc; it must all be in a database somewhere?

I would be curious what the ratio of the yearly harvest is comparing first time ram harvest, to multiple harvests by the same hunter?

There must be some data showing guys are killing their second, third, and fourth rams comparing to first time ram killers?

Who knows, but with a 5 yr wait on the table this would be the assumption?

You sure bring up a good point - they have a pile of data that you'd like to think gets used as the basis for any changes that may or may not happen.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy

I have to agree, I've killed 4 rams in 25 years, don't penalize me because I'm successful. It seems this is more about the unsucessful hunters wanting more rams out there for them to shoot. The original post was about short rams being shot. That's all about educating the guy pulling the trigger. I learned how to judge rams, everyone else can too.

I Think your somewhat right,however,I've never hunted sheep,but i'm proirity 13 for wmu437,so when I do get drawn the chances are good that i'll shoot a Ram that will score 180.Having a wmu like 437 on draw,allows these rams to reach there prime.A wmu like 402 has the good genetics,however due to the high hunting pressure,alot of rams(Not All), are taken right when they become legal.

[Duk Dog]

There have been rumours of sheep hunting going to draw or having longer wait times (for what it is worth 5 years is what I have also heard) for quite some time now. Along with the rumoured changes to the hunt comes a long list of potential reasons (too many sheep shot, too many short sheep shot, poaching etc) for such changes. Have there ever been facts regarding any and all issues related to the sheep hunt provided from SRD? If so what issue(s) have been identified? I quickly skimmed over this thread to see if any info was posted directly related to SRD but I didn't see any.

[Duk Dog]

How much (if any) influence has there been on the results of sheep hunting in Alberta due to the changes in habitat and WMU boundaries? (ie the creation of parks and elimination of previous hunting areas, no controlled burns etc) I ask the question as I'm very much a sheep newbie and don't recall all of the changes that have occurred. Again from quickly skimming this thread I've read a bunch of different reasons for things, but don't think anyone has brought up the changes with habitat and WMU boundaries and their impact on the sheep hunt.

[sheepguide]

Alot of valid points brought up here.
1.So we figured out TJ is just out for blood.

One person brought up the point on it would a 10 year wait for a draw. Well if we new how many tags would be issued we could say but it just depends on how many they put out.

And as far as waiting 5 years after I shoot a ram to kill one is a small price to pay if it increased the quality of hunting. Sheepcrazy you have killed 4 in 25 years, thats roughly a ram every 6.25 years. So im not really sure what the issue is. If you shot one every 5 years you could kill more sheep than you have with possible chances at bigger sheep!!

And comparing Cadomin to anywhere doesnt work as the Cadomin area has special issues, including feed.

SG

And as far as waiting 5 years after I shoot a ram to kill one is a small price to pay if it increased the quality of hunting.

How is the five year wait going to help put bigger sheep on the mountain? I truly don't see how it means any less rams being killed. Is guys killing multiple rams really even a problem other than a few isolated cases? If I see a ram and don't kill it, I'm guessing that someone else will. With outfitter success rates at 50%, obviously they are very skilled at what they do. If they suddenly have less residents to compete with, I'm guessing they'll kill more rams too. I've yet to have anyone explain to me how waiting 5 years after killing a ram will lead to more large sheep. I honestly don't see individual guys killing a lot of small rams other than a few isolated cases.

Sheepcrazy you have killed 4 in 25 years, thats roughly a ram every 6.25 years. So im not really sure what the issue is. If you shot one every 5 years you could kill more sheep than you have with possible chances at bigger sheep!!

Ya but he at least got to hunt those other years...learn more about the areas he hunts sheep and have a tag in his pocket if he crossed paths with that monster. I would say that the vast majority of successful sheep hunters don't kill and average of one sheep every five years but they are still permitted to hunt. Why stop a guy from living his passion because he's good at it?

.So we figured out TJ is just out for blood.

Hardly. I'm in it because I love to hunt sheep. For me, it's not hunting if there isn't a chance of blood being spilled. If it was all about the blood, I'd have far more notches in the stock of my sheep rifle but without the chance of blood being spilled, it definitely isn't hunting. Camera carrying guys in the mountains are photographers!

Along with the rumoured changes to the hunt comes a long list of potential reasons (too many sheep shot, too many short sheep shot, poaching etc) for such changes. Have there ever been facts regarding any and all issues related to the sheep hunt provided from SRD? If so what issue(s) have been identified?

I asked that question of SRD.....hopefully an answer comes soon.

[nube]

I ve been following this post for a while. It is intereting to see what guys have to say. Personally I like killing sheep and hope they don't chancge things. Of course i would like to kill bigger rams myself but I am not willing to sit on my butt 5 years everytime I kill one. I started sheep hunting when I was 14. I have killed 7 now since then in the last 18 years. I have also let a few go and have helped about a dozen others kill rams. From what I see I must have horseshoes. I enjoy Sheephunting and now that I am older find I have less time to do it. I don't need a big ram to kill to enjoy my hunt and enjoy every ram I have killed as a different experience and they have all been great hunts no matte the size.
In the areas I hunt I have not seen a lack of sheep on the hills. I aggree there may be something that may make things better but i don't know what it is. I think TJ is right in his thinking as well and that it won't matte the time you sit out as the same number of rams will be harvested every year no matter who is killing them. A draw would be the only way to increase size I believe. Be carefull for those who want this because in the end I think you will be dissapointed. i would be ****ed off if I could only go once in 10 years if that is how it worked out and who knows it could be even worse time weight. This would also not mean that you will get one still at that.
It would be interesting to know the numbers and how the draw system would work but I think it would do us more harm.
Look at 437 for instance. It seems like everyone whether they are sheephunters or not put in for that draw. The sheep are not any better than they use to be. They are actually worse. A friend of mine had that tag a few years back and did not have too many sheep to choose from and still did not get a big ram. For those who think they are going to get that tag and have a garantee of a big book ram, good luck with that.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

I think this right here pretty much sums things up. What is hunting then TJ because by the sounds of you hunting is killing. If the main reason of someone heading to the mountains on a sheep hunt is to pull the trigger than that right there is the biggest issue we are facing.
Hunting in our mountains should be for the enjoyment of being out there not if you can kill 5 or 6 rams.
If all these great sheep hunters are so worried about being out there hunting maybe you all should help some guys that havent got the experence that you do. You would still be HUNTING as you stated or is it that then you wouldnt be able to pull the trigger and shed some blood.

The statement about non residents then getting the sheep was covered too when i stated that they should at least drop non resident tags in zones with 8 tags to 4 or what ever. If we get lower tags or more years than non residents need to be adjusted too.

Ive killed two rams for myself in 21 years of sheep hunting(a just legal ram when I was 15 and a 170 when I was 17) and will only ever shoot one more(a big broomed older ram). Thats 18 years of hunting sheep every year without pulling the trigger and have enjoyed every year just as much. And lots of hunts I go on are stricktly to see if I can help a buddy or some one get their first ram. This gives me as much pleasure as me pulling the trigger.

With all these guys saying that they just wanna be able to shoot then we will never come up with possible solutions to improve quality or quanity.
SG

You sure are self righteous aren't you Darcy. Hunting is far from being all about killing but without the possibility of a kill it's not hunting. Read possibility...not requirement. My main reason for heading to the mountains is most certainly not to kill. I've passed dozens of rams over the years as have most sheep hunters I know but they aren't so politically correct as to say that the kill really isn't part of the hunt.

As for helping more hunters, I think I already made that point. Of course these guys will be out there helping hunters and killing rams.....likely rams that they may have passed themselves. So how is that going to reduce the harvest or allow for more older rams. It's not.

If there really is an issue with population or age structure, treat sheep like they do every other species and don't penalize guys that have a passion for the mountains.

[ramshorn]

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

Originally Posted by ramshorn

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

To a point but many rams in southern Alberta will never make full curl despite being very old and of very high trophy quality. But there's no doubt that it would significantly reduce the harvest and increase the age structure.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ramshorn

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

that is a very definate possibility. I think it may help.

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Yes I've shot 4 rams in 25 years Sheep Guide but I've turned down a lot since my first one. Alot that were legal but not big enough for me after shooting my first one. I also don't think there should be a B&C ram behind every boulder. That's where all of this seems to be heading IMO. I'll be happy enough spending the rest of my life looking for one and if I never do it won't matter.

[crazyfish]

The other problem with a zone like 437, is if you didn't put in for a draw the first year , and every year since, you will never get a chance at that draw! The last time i looked i believe there was about 60 guys @ priority 12 and only 4 tags a year. The math tells me its about 15 years just to get past that level. Yes there will be some attrition etc. , but i didn't put in for the first few years, so i will never have a chance! That is in my belief just a chance to make money off those who aren't aware of the numbers and i believe is wrong !

I agree with TJ that a 5 year wait won't keep people off the mountain, if i was successful this year, i would definetly have a blast trying to help my daughter to get one, then the next year my other daughter , or friends! Maybe a quota per zone kinda like the cougar tags are done ? ( yes i know, how do you tell someone on the mountain that the zone is now closed), but its an idea

[ramshorn]

by not being able to harvest all older rams that may not neccesarilly be a bad thing. it would always ensure some older rams were around for breeding. i think there are always some rams in every zone that will never be legal but the southren zones do seem to have more than the rest of the province.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As for helping more hunters, I think I already made that point. Of course these guys will be out there helping hunters and killing rams.....likely rams that they may have passed themselves. So how is that going to reduce the harvest or allow for more older rams. It's not.

don't penalize guys that have a passion for the mountains.

Not being able to kill a ram does nothing to do with penalizing people with a passion for the mountais as thousands go to the mountains every year and never hunt. A passion for the mountains is satisfied by just being out there.

The only reason we brought up the extended period is that there are some guys that do shoot just legal rams every 2 years. maybe this wouldnt be the answer but it would help a few ram grow up.

The only real answer then is to put it on draw and penalize the guys that have never harvested a ram and enjoyed the moment on the mountain that you have 5 or 6 times!!

SG

Originally Posted by ramshorn

by not being able to harvest all older rams that may not neccesarilly be a bad thing. it would always ensure some older rams were around for breeding. i think there are always some rams in every zone that will never be legal but the southren zones do seem to have more than the rest of the province.

In southern Alberta the high number of parks pretty well take care of ensuring we have loads of large breeding rams. Maybe a few more draws like WMU408 are needed......

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy

Yes I've shot 4 rams in 25 years Sheep Guide but I've turned down a lot since my first one. Alot that were legal but not big enough for me after shooting my first one. I also don't think there should be a B&C ram behind every boulder. That's where all of this seems to be heading IMO. I'll be happy enough spending the rest of my life looking for one and if I never do it won't matter.

I agree about the B/C stuff as I could really care less on that. But it would be nice if an average bighorn killed was 8 to 10 years old.

The only real answer then is to put it on draw and penalize the guys that have never harvested a ram and enjoyed the moment on the mountain that you have 5 or 6 times!!

If the numbers really are as bad as F&W is indicating......then you are right, that is the only answer I see as well. Increasing the wait time to five years certainly won't do it. I have a hard time believing this is a problem universal to Alberta. Manage sheep on a WMU by WMU basis as they do all other species. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Putting it on draw seems an equal hardship to all to me. A five year wait seems like outright discrimination.

And, if one were to follow the letter of the law, assisting someone else spot and kill a sheep would be illegal. I'm just saying........................

[Duk Dog]

Quote:
Along with the rumoured changes to the hunt comes a long list of potential reasons (too many sheep shot, too many short sheep shot, poaching etc) for such changes. Have there ever been facts regarding any and all issues related to the sheep hunt provided from SRD? If so what issue(s) have been identified?

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I asked that question of SRD.....hopefully an answer comes soon.

It'll be interesting to see what if any feedback you get. To this point there has been lots of rumours and hearsay, but if in fact there is an issue with the sheep hunt it would be good to hear why right from SRD.

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I agree about the B/C stuff as I could really care less on that. But it would be nice if an average bighorn killed was 8 to 10 years old.

I agree too, but my second ram was 5 1/2 years old and well over full curl. As we all agree to it's hard to judge age until they're on the ground. Even then it can be tough. I've spent alot of time out in the mountains looking at sheep and learning about them as I'm sure you and a lot of other people have done too. And it's paid off! It took me 10 years to get my first Ram. I enjoyed every hunt up to then and was almost disappointed when I shot my first one.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

The other problem with a zone like 437, is if you didn't put in for a draw the first year , and every year since, you will never get a chance at that draw! The last time i looked i believe there was about 60 guys @ priority 12 and only 4 tags a year. The math tells me its about 15 years just to get past that level. Yes there will be some attrition etc. , but i didn't put in for the first few years, so i will never have a chance! That is in my belief just a chance to make money off those who aren't aware of the numbers and i believe is wrong !

That right there should be proof for people that draws, and especially the way some of our current draws are, aren't the answer. I quit putting in for 437 a few years back when I realized I wasn't getting up a mountain at the ripe old age of 100.

[LongDraw]

we have a bunch of potential solutions listed in this discussion, but could someone tell me what the problem is?

Talk about reverse engineering..

Most guys wait 5 years or more to hunt antelope, how would a 5 year wait for sheep be all that different?I think the number of people in Alberta now likely does warrant some changes. I'd rather see a 5 year waiting period than it going on draw province wide and becoming a once in a lifetime hunt. Not saying changes of that magnitude are necessarily needed but i have met a few guys that shoot a ram every 2nd year simply because they can get a good price for the cape.

Now just one more thought to ponder, how about they make it like elk, moose, and antelope in that a person can't possess both trophy and non-trophy tag at the same time. Would that be another way to slightly reduce the number of rams taken and increase opportunities so a guy can still go sheep hunting every year or two if he'd like to? (would theoretically lower the draw time needed for ewe tags). Just a thought, not sure if i like that specific idea myself or not but came up in discussion with friends.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

And, if one were to follow the letter of the law, assisting someone else spot and kill a sheep would be illegal. I'm just saying........................

Not really getting your post here?

And going zone by zone would work but guarenteed the zones left open would increase vastly in number of hunters. Which in the long run would hurt these zones causing them to need more strict management down the road.

[7MM Mike]

JRS, The difference between antelope and sheep is that if antelope were on general - there wouldnt be any.

Increasing wait times between tags for successful hunters for a problem that doesnt exist is ludicrous at best. If it does exist- I'd like to see some data please.

I get the feeling reading this thread that there are alot of guys who've put in their time, have killed rams, passed on many rams, and are happy with the way it is - I know I am. If I never kill that booner I will totally satisfied, and will have enjoyed all my time chasing sheep.

I also get the feeling that alot of people who havent put in their time to gain the experience, or just simply havent made it happen, feel that somehow SRD can create an opportunity for them to have a crack at a booner!