Sheep Part 3

Setterman · #1 02-12-2010, 06:24 PM

First of all I really want this topic to continue as I feel it is a very important issue that many Albertans need more information about. If you can't be civil then please don't comment. This issue affects our hunting rights as Albertans and this is an issue I do not take lightly.

What have we discussed so far??

1) We need information to clarify if in fact there is an issue with the age structure of our big horn sheep. In my opinion/observations there is not. So why is this "5 year wait" being proposed. From what I have heard the main push is coming from special interest groups. This is wrong - no matter what organization it is coming from. As Albertans this is our resource and thus we should have a say in how it is managed. We all need to be contacting SRD to communicate our views on this issue.

2) If there is in fact an issue with the age structure of our sheep then we need to be proactive and communicate our view/ideas to SRD. We have had many suggestions on how to do this. All have been good ideas and I appreciate everyone creativity and ability to think outside the box. This is what I think.....
If restrictions are needed to enhance the age structure of big horn sheep in our province we need something that is very concrete and tangible. Sheep are hard to age- that is a fact. Even F&W have "issues" . Any type of restrictions based on age is a can of worms that will eventually have to be decided by a judge. Here is an example. Last week I was emailed the below picture. I have no idea who this person is but i can tell you that his smile was ear to ear. To me this sheep looks short, but I have confirmation that it has been registered so it goes to show just how hard it is to judge sheep. I have never harvested a big horn sheep and honestly I would have passed on this sheep but who am I to take anything away from this dude- he looked pumped!!!

I will never try and instill my idea of a trophy on another hunter. A trophy animal is subjective to the hunter pulling the trigger.

If in fact our sheep need hunting restrictions to benefit the age structure then I would vote for a tier system.

1st - Sheep - normal 1 year wait
2nd- Sheep - 3 year wait
Five year wait for any other sheep that are harvested.

Truthfully I am not even sure if this system would work as different hunters may just fill in the void left when other are waiting but it is the best I have hears so far.

We all need to be writing letters to SRD, our MLAs, the Premier , APOS, FNAWS and AFGA. My letters will be mailed out by the end of the weekend.
Again lets be civil for the sheep’s sake.

Have a great long weekend everyone. Cheers SM

sheepguide · #2 02-12-2010, 06:40 PM

Great pic of what not to shoot in alberta!!!!!!!

Vindalbakken · #3 02-12-2010, 06:40 PM

Casper got a sheep!!!!

Vindalbakken · #4 02-12-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Great pic of what not to shoot in alberta!!!!!!!

Why?

Stinky Coyote · #5 02-12-2010, 06:44 PM

holy crap, i wouldn't have touched that one based on that picture, hope is other side is longer or somehow that picture is hiding the angle of the sheeps head to show him short?

sheepguide · #6 02-12-2010, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Why?

Well if your actually serious there is good reason for an education coarse!

Just a tad short and I dont beleive there is much luck in the far side streaching to the line either.

Hard to see the exact start of the base but I think im pretty close.
Big%20Horn%20Sheep.JPG

guywiththemule · #7 02-12-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well if your actually serious there is good reason for an education coarse!

Just a tad short and I dont beleive there is much luck in the far side streaching to the line either.

Hard to see the exact start of the base but I think im pretty close.
Attachment 19445

That`s about the way I see it. Has the appearance of a young sheep by the picture. Could be wrong though.

SLH · #8 02-12-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Why?

Because with that picture it is not a legal ram. Which brings up a couple things. First this is why education is important. Lets say for argument sake that it is longer and legal it is still an immature ram. People need to know how to determine that on there own for the sake of the herd. I know that even if it is legal he did nothing wrong by the law but he should also know that he did something wrong by the herd. If he knew that this was an immature ram he may have been able to make a more educated and informed decision as to why he should have left it or more importantly why he wanted it over waiting for something better.

Second, and lets assume that it is not legal then what the hell is SRD putting a plug in that thing for. To which I've heard that they are just having to much trouble getting convictions. It shouldn't be that hard to determine that if you are in possession of a short ram you get charged and if you are a serious outdoorsmen you should pony up and take you lumps for making that mistake. I've also heard that SRD is trying to come up with a better definition of what constitutes and illegal ram so that some greasy lawyer can't get someone off on a technicality.

sheepguide · #9 02-12-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

That`s about the way I see it. Has the appearance of a young sheep by the picture. Could be wrong though.

Looks like 4 1/2 to me but the pic is a little distorted and grainy to tell 100%

SLH · #10 02-12-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well if your actually serious there is good reason for an education coarse!

Just a tad short and I dont beleive there is much luck in the far side streaching to the line either.

Hard to see the exact start of the base but I think im pretty close.
Attachment 19445

I hate to disagree with you but I think you are being really generous.

Someone help me here and I know it isn't really clear but is it three or four.

This picture does not make me happy.

sheepguide · #11 02-12-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLH

I hate to disagree with you but I think you are being really generous.

Someone help me here and I know it isn't really clear but is it three or four.

This picture does not make me happy.

It is tough to tell for sure and I was stuck at 3 1/2 but give him 4 1/2 just because of his horn length. I very well could be wrong as it is hard to see in that pic.

SLH · #12 02-12-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

It is tough to tell for sure and I was stuck at 3 1/2 but give him 4 1/2 just because of his horn length. I very well could be wrong as it is hard to see in that pic.

Well I'm still stuck at three and in any event that is why an education course makes sense and not only for the hunters (unless this is an incredibly distorted angle) whoever put the plug in that critter should have to take one as well.

Tonto · #13 02-12-2010, 07:48 PM

But we are idiots to think that a little education would stop horsesh1t like this from happening.

sheepguide · #14 02-12-2010, 07:50 PM

Here is my figuring. Not saying its correct without a clearer pic though.

Big%20Horn%20Sheep.JPG

guywiththemule · #15 02-12-2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Looks like 4 1/2 to me but the pic is a little distorted and grainy to tell 100%

Lamb tips and instinct tell me 4 1/2 but I won`t put money on it because it`s a picture.

209x50 · #16 02-12-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLH

Well I'm still stuck at three and in any event that is why an education course makes sense and not only for the hunters (unless this is an incredibly distorted angle) whoever put the plug in that critter should have to take one as well.

I just had a good conversation with a board member of AWS. It seems this all started innocuous enough with the guys thinking we should be growing bigger rams here like Montana does. This curiosity lead to meeting with SRD which lead to more meetings and more questions until SRD presented the stakeholder group with the 5 year plan. The 5 year plan is now dead according to SRD. The board member agreed that sheep management should deal with predators and habitat and that managing hunters was easier fir SRD but detrimental to the sheep herd in the long run. Predators and habitat don't take of themselves.
Talking about habitat brought out some interesting numbers. He said rams down south can be 4/5 curl at 3.5 years because of the milder winters and better range and in comparison the rams in my neck of the woods around Kakawa average 8.5 years to get to 4/5 curl.
So the moral of the story? You never know how a situation is going to play out and to those who say "What can it hurt?" now you know how quickly something can snowball.

Hagar · #17 02-12-2010, 08:02 PM

That is what I mean about the education course.I here of at least one of these shot each year.Some are brought in,others are kicked over a cliff.

If we can help all sheep hunters become better at judging sheep maybe we would see and here less of this kind or thing.With a conservation component it may help in the reduction of the harvest of young sheep.Not saying it would change every ones way of thinking,and not telling them what to shoot,but explaining more about conservation.

The course could be done in much the same fashion as the current hunters ed,possibly by the same instructors.The certification could by tied to your win card as proof so the could be no falsification.

Just some thoughts.

Would also like to add that regardless of where the original pressure on SRD came from to make changes,they are thinking of making changes.If we can show SRD that we are willing to make changes to sheep hunting on our own it may give our side more credit when changes do come.

209x50 · #18 02-12-2010, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Would also like to add that regardless of where the original pressure on SRD came from to make changes,they are thinking of making changes.If we can show SRD that we are willing to make changes to sheep hunting on our own it may give our side more credit when changes do come.

they are not going to give us credit they just aren't going have to fight us for it if we follow your advice.

209x50 · #19 02-12-2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setterman

First of all I really want this topic to continue as I feel it is a very important issue that many Albertans need more information about. If you can't be civil then please don't comment. This issue affects our hunting rights as Albertans and this is an issue I do not take lightly.

What have we discussed so far??

1) We need information to clarify if in fact there is an issue with the age structure of our big horn sheep. In my opinion/observations there is not. So why is this "5 year wait" being proposed. From what I have heard the main push is coming from special interest groups. This is wrong - no matter what organization it is coming from. As Albertans this is our resource and thus we should have a say in how it is managed. We all need to be contacting SRD to communicate our views on this issue.

2) If there is in fact an issue with the age structure of our sheep then we need to be proactive and communicate our view/ideas to SRD. We have had many suggestions on how to do this. All have been good ideas and I appreciate everyone creativity and ability to think outside the box. This is what I think.....
If restrictions are needed to enhance the age structure of big horn sheep in our province we need something that is very concrete and tangible. Sheep are hard to age- that is a fact. Even F&W have "issues" . Any type of restrictions based on age is a can of worms that will eventually have to be decided by a judge. Here is an example. Last week I was emailed the below picture. I have no idea who this person is but i can tell you that his smile was ear to ear. To me this sheep looks short, but I have confirmation that it has been registered so it goes to show just how hard it is to judge sheep. I have never harvested a big horn sheep and honestly I would have passed on this sheep but who am I to take anything away from this dude- he looked pumped!!!

I will never try and instill my idea of a trophy on another hunter. A trophy animal is subjective to the hunter pulling the trigger.

If in fact our sheep need hunting restrictions to benefit the age structure then I would vote for a tier system.

1st - Sheep - normal 1 year wait
2nd- Sheep - 3 year wait
Five year wait for any other sheep that are harvested.

Truthfully I am not even sure if this system would work as different hunters may just fill in the void left when other are waiting but it is the best I have hears so far.

We all need to be writing letters to SRD, our MLAs, the Premier , APOS, FNAWS and AFGA. My letters will be mailed out by the end of the weekend.
Again lets be civil for the sheep’s sake.

Have a great long weekend everyone. Cheers SM

Just in case I misunderstand, you have confirmation this sheep is legal and has been registered?
The picture is on a terrible angle for me to judge but if the CO called it legal and plugged it then they are law and we can second guess all we want it makes no difference. According to the law the hunter didn't need a course and made a legal call. Congrats to the lucky hunter.

sheepguide · #20 02-12-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

I just had a good conversation with a board member of AWS. It seems this all started innocuous enough with the guys thinking we should be growing bigger rams here like Montana does. This curiosity lead to meeting with SRD which lead to more meetings and more questions until SRD presented the stakeholder group with the 5 year plan. The 5 year plan is now dead according to SRD. The board member agreed that sheep management should deal with predators and habitat and that managing hunters was easier fir SRD but detrimental to the sheep herd in the long run. Predators and habitat don't take of themselves.
Talking about habitat brought out some interesting numbers. He said rams down south can be 4/5 curl at 3.5 years because of the milder winters and better range and in comparison the rams in my neck of the woods around Kakawa average 8.5 years to get to 4/5 curl.
So the moral of the story? You never know how a situation is going to play out and to those who say "What can it hurt?" now you know how quickly something can snowball.

Not starting an argument here but most sheep north of hwy 16 are legal b4 8.5.

sheepguide · #21 02-12-2010, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

The picture is on a terrible angle for me to judge .

Another exellent reason for education. If for one instant anyone thinks this ram is in any way shape or form close to legal they should not be in the mountains hunting.

The original poster did not say it was plugged i dont beleive.

Swarovski · #22 02-12-2010, 08:29 PM

duplicate

Swarovski · #23 02-12-2010, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

Just in case I misunderstand, you have confirmation this sheep is legal and has been registered?
The picture is on a terrible angle for me to judge but if the CO called it legal and plugged it then they are law and we can second guess all we want it makes no difference. According to the law the hunter didn't need a course and made a legal call. Congrats to the lucky hunter.

The angle to me looks pretty close to profile and that there sheep is no where even close in my eyes... Let alone being at most 4.5 years old.

If a CO did pass that sheep they should definitely be forced to take some sort of course or for that matter open up a hunting regulation booklet to the 4/5 sketch. WOW

Setterman · #24 02-12-2010, 08:58 PM

This sheep has been plugged and registered. Whether it is legal or not is up for interpretation.....

sheepguide · #25 02-12-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setterman

This sheep has been plugged and registered. Whether it is legal or not is up for interpretation.....

Thanks setterman. Goes to show that our CO's could use a little education themselves.

Do you have a pic of the opposite horn?

209x50 · #26 02-12-2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setterman

This sheep has been plugged and registered. Whether it is legal or not is up for interpretation.....

Correct!

ram crazy · #27 02-12-2010, 09:04 PM

[QUOTE=Hagar;509434]That is what I mean about the education course.I here of at least one of these shot each year.Some are brought in,others are kicked over a cliff.

If we can help all sheep hunters become better at judging sheep maybe we would see and here less of this kind or thing.With a conservation component it may help in the reduction of the harvest of young sheep.Not saying it would change every ones way of thinking,and not telling them what to shoot,but explaining more about conservation.

You have give your head a shake! because if you think by taking a course is going to solve this problem I think you are sorely mistaken. We have first time hunters that have to take a hunter ed coarse and they still do wrong. Just last year there was a first time hunter that shot a Grizzly Bear for a Black Bear, so did the coarse help. I don't think so.

sheepguide · #28 02-12-2010, 09:12 PM

[QUOTE=ram crazy;509475]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagar

You have give your head a shake! because if you think by taking a course is going to solve this problem I think you are sorely mistaken. We have first time hunters that have to take a hunter ed coarse and they still do wrong. Just last year there was a first time hunter that shot a Grizzly Bear for a Black Bear, so did the coarse help. I don't think so.

We see the mistakes made with minimal education can you imagin what it would be like with no education? Every little bit of education will help. Sure its not gunna totally solve all issues but it will lower them. Like many have said it only has to keep a couple small sheep alive to have worked.

Tonto · #29 02-12-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setterman

This sheep has been plugged and registered. Whether it is legal or not is up for interpretation.....

It's as legal as me driving 160 km/ hr, getting stopped and not getting a ticket.

Unless the opposite horn is 3" longer.

Vindalbakken · #30 02-12-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well if your actually serious there is good reason for an education coarse!

Just a tad short and I dont beleive there is much luck in the far side streaching to the line either.

Hard to see the exact start of the base but I think im pretty close.
Attachment 19445

Just trying to see if the picture link works in the quote - it won't in the original post for me.

It worked.