Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls

[Mike Oxbig]

Originally Posted by NBFK

Yes I support this proposal 100% why would I want to bludgeon an animal to death with a pointy stick.

I'm sorry; what exactly is an arrow?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by NBFK

Yes I am an executive member.

Yes I support this proposal 100% why would I want to bludgeon an animal to death with a pointy stick.

Thanks for joining the conversation and I appreciate your input. In good nature I have to say this comment is just too funny.

Originally Posted by NBFK

I believe this whole prosal is to prevent an uproar from the anti-hunting community. A few videos and pictures of animals getting speared to death and all of a sudden all legal forms of hunting are under scrutiny, especially bowhunting. If you don't like it then join the ABA or your local fish and game association. Come up with proposals and input. It's way too easy for everyone to be sideline quarterbacks while a few actually go to bat to make sure hunters have plenty of opportunity and healthy game populations. For the record most ABA members and executive members are hunters. So please don't paint us with the brush of being elite over others. We are a special interest group so bowhunting is the goal of the ABA. Most people don't realize how much money and time the ABA puts back into the hunting community.

Yes and no.

First the Yes. The resolution is intended to pro-actively appease the anti-hunting community by removing legal weapons for use to hunt big game.

""2. CONCERN

The concern among the hunting fraternity is the negative publicity and damage to the image of hunters/hunting that could arise from the general public (and even other hunters) if the use of these weapons in hunting situations make it to the print, television, internet, social medias.


4. RECOMMENDED CHANGE

Make the use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in Alberta.""



Can you explain how the ABA determined that the "hunting fraternity" is concerned that the use of spears/atlatls could damage the our image?


----
And the no.


"A few videos and pictures of animals getting speared to death and all of a sudden all legal forms of hunting are under scrutiny, especially bowhunting"

Garbage.... This resolution evolved from an Alberta BOWhunting video!

The 2012 David Booth Archery Black bear video, a legal hunt including an ethical kill, was used by anti-hunting groups to promote their cause. Anti-hunters were able to get traction in the media resulting in many letters being sent to SRD along with request for responses from ABA and AFGA.

According to Brent Watson, in order to avoid having to possibly comment on a future incident that may include the humane harvest of a big game animal with a spear/atlatls, he has decided to attempt to have these weapons banned.


I am obviously not alone in having extreme difficulty with this resolution. If Brent and the ABA do not want to defend the use of spears/atlatls, then fine, don't. These legal weapons, the fore-fathers of the bow and arrow, will be just fine without the ABA.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by NBFK

Yes there are full fledged bowmembers in the ABA. If the ABA had the attitude that you cannot be a hunter then I definitely wouldn't be volunteering my time with them.

NBFK, not sure what you mean with the quoted statement, can you clarify?
Are you saying ABA doesn't suggest someone isn't a real hunter unless they follow the ABA creed?

If so, well, I'm an example of that attitude as a recipient of it!

About a year and a half after moving to Alberta due to a job transfer I wanted and pursued, I went to the Edmonton Sportsman show. There I engaged a guy at an ABA booth in conversation (maybe it was you - ha, ha!). He asked me if I was a bowhunter and I replied in the affirmative. Since I was 15 I have hunted with a 55 # Ben Pearson recurve, bare-bow, instinctive shooting, I am now pushing 60 - that's a long time. He invited / pressured me to join the ABA, and at the time I certainly wasn't opposed to doing so. So I asked questions. Then, having heard the ABA wasn't too friendly towards crossbows I mentioned that I also hunted with one in Ontario. The reaction I got was 'unpleasant' to say the least. I was advised in no uncertain terms that I was not a hunter and has no business coming to Alberta with one of those things. He expressed a few more rather negative things using some rather unseemly, ungentlemanly terms and asked me to step away from the booth.

Since then I've had 'conversations' with a few other strong ABA proponents who basically upheld his point of view. Ever since I've had an unpleasant taste in my mouth about the ABA and they lost me as a possible supporter / member. This thread reinforces my view even more. The ABA seems obsessed with it's own special interests to the detriment of advancing the broader cause / activity of hunting where we should be supporting one another in spite of differences of gear.

Personally I don't care much for compounds - in my opinion their modern technological enhancements doesn't make them equal to using recurves and long bows as far as traditional archery hunting goes. In fact, modern compounds are more efficient than my Excalibur crossbow, and way, way ahead of my recurve . But I certainly would never argue compounds should be restricted or banned. If someone wants to hunt with a spear or atlatl, and can be proficient at it, more power to them. Talking about banning them is attacking a minority for no gain - except for advancing a 'special interest' agenda.

[petew]

I would far rather see the ABA and AFGA lobby to restrict outfitting tags so residents have priority over species that need to be on a draw rather than worrying about spears and atlatls.
We need to put the Albertan first with the ABA and AFGA , not APOS.

[NBFK]

Hey Dale

Bludgeon an animal with a pointy stick isn't a very good description and doesn't make sense. More of a sarcastic statement.

I think that's great people are willing to take the time to send emails and voice concerns. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Just because I support one change from one group doesn't mean I'd support the next from another and that's great hunters are willing to put in leg work to be heard.

Dave it's not a recruitment ploy I'm just stating that anyone who wants to join can for 35 dollars and have their voices heard.

[Deer Hunter]

Lesson to learn here:

Don't let your membership in any association in this province give you a good sense of feeling that your interests are being looked after.

Some of the issues brought up in only the last year include:
1. Outfitter Allocations have been over allocated compared to resident numbers in several areas for different game animals for several years. Where were these associations?
2. Landowner tags numbers were not even being complied by SRD and had an effect on overall management through harvest percentages; no association was requesting these numbers...
3. The archery antlered mule deer draw occurred while these associations refused to look at the harvest numbers which SRD proposed as the reasoning behind it.
4. AGMAG meetings appear to be more social events rather than question and answer forums.
5. Some associations do not provide feedback to members regarding the letters written.
6. Member resolutions being somehow lost prior to being tabled.
7. Associations executives' resolutions being tabled as surprises.

[NBFK]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

NBFK, not sure what you mean with the quoted statement, can you clarify?
Are you saying ABA doesn't suggest someone isn't a real hunter unless they follow the ABA creed?

If so, well, I'm an example of that attitude as a recipient of it!

About a year and a half after moving to Alberta due to a job transfer I wanted and pursued, I went to the Edmonton Sportsman show. There I engaged a guy at an ABA booth in conversation (maybe it was you - ha, ha!). He asked me if I was a bowhunter and I replied in the affirmative. Since I was 15 I have hunted with a 55 # Ben Pearson recurve, bare-bow, instinctive shooting, I am now pushing 60 - that's a long time. He invited / pressured me to join the ABA, and at the time I certainly wasn't opposed to doing so. So I asked questions. Then, having heard the ABA wasn't too friendly towards crossbows I mentioned that I also hunted with one in Ontario. The reaction I got was 'unpleasant' to say the least. I was advised in no uncertain terms that I was not a hunter and has no business coming to Alberta with one of those things. He expressed a few more rather negative things using some rather unseemly, ungentlemanly terms and asked me to step away from the booth.

Since then I've had 'conversations' with a few other strong ABA proponents who basically upheld his point of view. Ever since I've had an unpleasant taste in my mouth about the ABA and they lost me as a possible supporter / member. This thread reinforces my view even more. The ABA seems obsessed with it's own special interests to the detriment of advancing the broader cause / activity of hunting where we should be supporting one another in spite of differences of gear.

Personally I don't care much for compounds - in my opinion their modern technological enhancements doesn't make them equal to using recurves and long bows as far as traditional archery hunting goes. In fact, modern compounds are more efficient than my Excalibur crossbow, and way, way ahead of my recurve . But I certainly would never argue compounds should be restricted or banned. If someone wants to hunt with a spear or atlatl, and can be proficient at it, more power to them. Talking about banning them is attacking a minority for no gain - except for advancing a 'special interest' agenda.

No there is no creed to follow I was stating that I do hunt with both weapons and if the ABA didn't support that then I wouldn't be volunteering my time. I'm not sure where everyone thinks the ABA is some elite group. I've met some great friends through the ABA and shared hunts with them.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by NBFK

No there is no creed to follow I was stating that I do hunt with both weapons and if the ABA didn't support that then I wouldn't be volunteering my time. I'm not sure where everyone thinks the ABA is some elite group. I've met some great friends through the ABA and shared hunts with them.

The ABA's hatred of the crossbow is well known and quite well documented. There may not be an official creed, but I sure as hell feel there is an unofficial one. That comes from listening and talking to more than a few ABA members.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by NBFK

No there is no creed to follow I was stating that I do hunt with both weapons and if the ABA didn't support that then I wouldn't be volunteering my time. I'm not sure where everyone thinks the ABA is some elite group. I've met some great friends through the ABA and shared hunts with them.

Generally speaking....

Inevitably whenever clubs or organizations form to further the interests of the individuals who join... it causes friction with others when those clubs begin to infringe or fingerpoint and make critical comparissons.
Also... invariably... such clubs attract elitists and knobs right along with ordinary unassuming guys.
Before long...guess who is at the big table and representing the group... ambitious knobs and elitists.

Happens almost every time.

Look at the traditional BP guys and their attitude towards inline hunters.
Look to this forum and what happens when someone useds the term weapon instead of firearm or bullet instead of cartrige or clip rather than magaziine.
Look at what happens when anyone her suggests that some gun control might be a good thing.
The examples are endless.

In the end.... what starts out as nothing m ore than a way for persons of like interests to come together and interact and have fun...becomes another pseudo-political group of elitist cronies steering everyone towards their vision rather than the other way around...as it should be.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by NBFK

Hey Dale

Bludgeon an animal with a pointy stick isn't a very good description and doesn't make sense. More of a sarcastic statement.

I think that's great people are willing to take the time to send emails and voice concerns. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Just because I support one change from one group doesn't mean I'd support the next from another and that's great hunters are willing to put in leg work to be heard.

Dave it's not a recruitment ploy I'm just stating that anyone who wants to join can for 35 dollars and have their voices heard.

Hey.... You.... (insert name here)


As well, I pick and choose my position based on the issue. I am not taking a stand against the ABA, I am taking a stand against this ABA resolution.


Do you believe that spears/atlatls cannot be used efficiently/humanely as a hunting tool?

As an ABA exec, please tell us why you support this resolution.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

The ABA's hatred of the crossbow is well known and quite well documented. There may not be an official creed, but I sure as hell feel there is an unofficial one. That comes from listening and talking to more than a few ABA members.

Amen!

[fish gunner]

The lost art of jousting, thats a challenge . On mountain bike of course.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I'm wishing that I'd read the rest of a certain someones posts before I responded last time....but he just proved my point.

Obviously he was being a bit less than up front with us to begin with suggesting he knew less than he did and that he was less involved than he is.

Hmmmm.... sneaky.

Oh well.

I wonder whether they have considered that there are right and wrong ways to spear hunt....just as there are right and wrong ways to bow or rifle hunt?
I also wonder if that organization considered that some folks still hunt in the traditional way with spears...on the ground for bears and boar and that those that do... do it very well?

I wonder how our friend would feel if all the rifle hunters in Alberta got together and lobbied government to ban bow hunting because of the small percentage of idiots on that community?

It seems resonable as that would no doubt spare far more animals from suffering than a ban on spears would.

As I previously stated... such organizations eventually become bastions for elitists and knobs...blind to everything but their own interests.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

The lost art of jousting, thats a challenge . On mountain bike of course.

There is a club in Alberta. You could learn - but they use real horses and real armor.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

There is a club in Alberta. You could learn - but they use real horses and real armor.

They lance deer, in armour. thats awsome . How do they put the armour on the deer??

[J D]

As a future Alberta resident and avid bowhunter I will not drop a dime towards the ABA. The more I learn about this association the more disappointed in it I have become.

95% of my hunting is done with compound or trad bow. I like to try and support hunting and bowhunting a like.

To the executive that has added to this thread it sounds like the ABA needs to be gutted and change there approach. STOP wasting time with useless crap like worrying about spear hunting. With the whole mule deer season issue sounds like the ABA bent over or someone liked the idea of going to draw. Keeping the doe season and letting bucks go draw can't defend that the reason is worry about the mule deer population. It passed on BS harvest numbers and see no real effort from the ABA to change it.

In the past I was impressed with the ABA but not anymore.

[CBintheNorth]

Waking Buffalo has it right, this is about deflection. Bowhunting is always under scrutiny and the ABA exec decided to throw some heat towards the smaller group because the spear hunters are the only ones the ABA can bully.

I wonder how it felt when the rifle associations looked at the puny amount of bowhunters and said "ban archery!"
It wasn't all that long ago really, but obviously before
Mr. Watson's time as he has no idea what brethren we are all a part of.
I am a bowhunter, loud and proud, but I have no reservations about joining another hunting group to defend itself against tyranny. Even if the tyrant is another hunting group.

I think I need to go find Redfrog's post about the anti hunters getting the hunters to do their work for them.

[huntinstuff]

I have an "out" for the ABA...

Tell everyone that your account was hacked since no one would ever propose something so stupid.

There. Now take the out and try to save face.

Hunters vs Hunters. The idiotic antics continue

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

A few animals getting speared to death differs from animal running through through town with arrows in them , or jaws blown off how?
I am also an archer, as well as a black powder shooter ad hunter with rifles and shotguns as well as long range, short range, hell any range guns.
One thing I hate is being labelled one thing or another because of a "special interest group" because my special interest is in fact the outdoors.

The associations I belong to are for the good of all sportsmen, not just their own special interests, and to attempt to deflect an attack by anti hunting groups on themselves by suggesting a ban on something a person has no interest in at all is the WRONG way to go about things.
That is not at all how to do it.
I hate black semi auto rifles, but that doesn't mean i want them banned from the ranges I attend or have them banned from hunting, but some do.
As I already said, that is the wrong way to go about things.

Letter campaigns, articles, and lobbying the government is the proper way, but not if it means at the expense of another group of hunters.
However that's just my opinion.
Cat

BINGO!!!
Cat says is like it is! Death from within the hunting community.
We need to stick TOGETHER.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Show of hands.....how many here spear hunt or know someone who does in Alberta?

I just want to hear the opinions of those who this affects directly (I know it affects us all in some fashion)

BTW, I don't feel it should be made illegal....

Putting up silos and segmenting hunters is a horrible way to manage things...I'll be honest, in certain areas I buy a general mule deer tag in case I see a decent one while elk hunting....I buy it because I would hate to see a cranker and not have a tag in my pocket.

I am out mostly hunting elk but if the opportunity presents itself I would love to get a nice mulie in velvet. That is on the years I did not pull a mulie draw tag....and then again those years I do pull a draw I like to try with the bow and then switch to the rifle later in the season.

I am a hunter....I hunt 50/50 timewise between bow/rifle. I hate to have to flip a coin to decide what to use and what draw to put in for. How are they going to divy up the tags in a split draw?

What percentage of archery only tags are available vs. rifle tags in a split draw? If 15% of the hunters are going for 15% of the tags and 85% of the other hunters are going for the other 85% of the other tags how does that help anyone?

This could backfire on the people who pushed it....what if 50% of the hunters go after the 15% of archery tags? I think it should stay as is....get a draw and hunt with one weapon or another or both if you like at different times!

I think the people who supported the draw were likely archery diehards, the guys who don't use a rifle to hunt at all....that wanted to eliminate competition for tags, I can't see any other motivation for it....

LC

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by petew

I would far rather see the ABA and AFGA lobby to restrict outfitting tags so residents have priority over species that need to be on a draw rather than worrying about spears and atlatls.
We need to put the Albertan first with the ABA and AFGA , not APOS.

I totally agree with you about this. we allow way to much of our wild life to go to the god almighty big dollar

[calgarychef]

Really what this boils down to is tasteless YouTube videos being posted. I've said it before these videos will be the end of hunting.

[CNP]

I find myself having to sneer at this thread. If this particular issue (attack?) had not been leaked, is everything else ok in oz? Apparently it isn't. The general human malaise of people wanting their piece of pie to be bigger than the other is the problem. Others have said it and I agree that eliminating spears or the other thing I can't spell won't really accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things. The resolution is put forward to appease antis? Appeasing antis should never be the goal of a hunting fraternity. You cannot appease them enough. Lots of posters attacking the ABA......not much love for the ABA on this forum at the best of times. Some of it is legitimate, as per the spear thing, but lots just hate. The label thing divides us. There are no rifle hunters, bow hunters, spear hunters..........we are people who hunt with different equipment. Having different opening and closing dates for the different equipment is really a blessing to us. Yet there are those who feel that organizations like the ABA are the axis-of-evil, whose members are elitist and non-inclusive. I'll go out on a limb and say that most ABA haters are largely those who have never picked up a bow, never will and are envious of people who qualify themselves for a bigger piece of the seasonal pie. It's not enough that hunting with a bow is open to everyone, the haters want to take your opportunities away only because they are envious. Then come the cross bow posts. A minority of provinces and states allow unrestricted use of a crossbow. That is a fact. It is an ABA position that crossbows not be included as archery equipment and I find myself in agreement with that. The ABA is a net benefit to the hunting fraternity. Scorning the entire organization for policies you don't agree with is just anarchy. I have never been an ABA member.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Really what this boils down to is tasteless YouTube videos being posted. I've said it before these videos will be the end of hunting.

The amount of tasteless BOW hunting vids on U-Tube easily outnumber spearhunting vids 1000:1.
ABA exec should pit their energy into something useful,perhaps banning those retarded WildBites segways from WTV would be a good start.

[Nait Hadya]

The mandate of the Alberta Bowhunters Association.

Promote the sport of bowhunting in Alberta.
Ensure education of all first time bowhunters.
Provide government with our members ideas regarding conservation.
Lobby ASRD to maintain opportunities for Alberta Bowhunters while at the same time partnering with outdoor groups to ensure sustainable conservation policy in Alberta.
Maintain a code of ethics amongst our membership that is second to none in Canada.
Provide and manage our world famous Big Game Awards program.
Host or manage the ABA yearly Convention and Banquet.

[Tsunami]

Originally Posted by petew

I would far rather see the ABA and AFGA lobby to restrict outfitting tags so residents have priority over species that need to be on a draw rather than worrying about spears and atlatls.
We need to put the Albertan first with the ABA and AFGA , not APOS.

I totally agree with this statement. The biggest threat to you, me, and all resident hunters in Alberta is Outfitting.

I moved here from Saskatchewan and the difference in getting permission to hunt is unbelievable! All the lease is "tied up" in Alberta mostly because of outfitting. All the good whitetail property up here is off limits mostly because of outfitting.

The resident hunter in this province reminds me of the adage of a frog in a pot of water with the burner on, clueless until it is too late!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Tsunami

I totally agree with this statement. The biggest threat to you, me, and all resident hunters in Alberta is Outfitting.

I moved here from Saskatchewan and the difference in getting permission to hunt is unbelievable! All the lease is "tied up" in Alberta mostly because of outfitting. All the good whitetail property up here is off limits mostly because of outfitting.

The resident hunter in this province reminds me of the adage of a frog in a pot of water with the burner on, clueless until it is too late!

The other big difference is in Saskatchewan the nonresident hunter has limits as to what they are eligible to hunt....heck a non resident in Saskatchewan can't even shoot coyotes.

LC

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Tsunami

The resident hunter in this province reminds me of the adage of a frog in a pot of water with the burner on, clueless until it is too late!

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Attacking ourselves? It's interesting that you describe this thread as an attack on the hunting community where some of us see it as the ABA attacking us. The ABA has alienated themselves from the rest of the hunting community all by themselves with s**t like this. Wanting to ban spear chucking is just another example of how the ABA is more than willing to take hunting opportunities away from the rest of the hunting community. Maybe you think that the hunting community should side with the ABA and not the spear chuckers because....well.....because they are special, they represent bowhunters.

The ABA is part of the hunting community. So are you. So am I. So is anyone who legally particapates in the pursuit of wild game. Your bashing the ABA is no different than their brain dead idea of a spear ban. Weapons restrictions need to be in place for management purposes because some are more efficient than others. anyone who can't handle that is just being selfish.

My point was, Think of what could be accomplished if we turned all this energy onto something like outfitter allocations. We could actually see a benefit.

[greylynx]

I think bow hunting should be banned.

Just like bow hunters think that cross bows should be banned.

An unfair advantage is created.

Why?

Poaching.

Especially Night Poaching.

Guns make a report, Bows do not.

Bows make it more difficult for government enforcement of the game laws.

Bows are a shotgun with a silencer.


Simple as that.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by 3blade

My point was, Think of what could be accomplished if we turned all this energy onto something like outfitter allocations. We could actually see a benefit.

You and I can try as much as we like to change the ways that resident hunters are being treated in this province. But the reality is that unless you sit in on these AGMAG meetings, we are wasting our time.

AFGA had 5 years to prepare for the latest round of outfitter allocation reviews. Lowly AFGA members offered to share information gathered through the FOIP process...Information that the AFGA should have already had... They weren't very interested.
You would have thought that if anyone was up to speed on the allocation and draw numbers it should have been the AFGA. Far from it. Opportunity lost to make an impactful difference.

Unless the groups that are supposed to represent their membership (resident hunters) start returning calls, emails, using the help that is offered, and taking a hard line, we are all screwed. No matter how much energy we want to put in behind them.

Thinking that you are being represented, and not being, is worse than knowing you are not.