Big sheep changes

[JTRED]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Because it's alot easier to manage us hunters then it is to face the real issues. Like you I agree habitat and predator control should be number one. But that's too hard to do.

This is the exact issue we face here in BC, they manage hunters by having antler restrictions, shortened seasons, and leh draws rather than addressing the issues like habitat restoration, predator management, etc. All that seems to do is turn hunters into non-hunters and ends up in a number of dead animals which were incorrectly identified. I'm not sure what the answers are but I do know we as hunters often make it easy for them by actually requesting these restrictions thinking they will be temporary until something is really done which helps the herd. Once something is taken away it probably won't ever come back.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

It has changed significantly. Trophy ram harvest has decreased especially in the southern zones from 1993 onward. From 1980-93 we average probably 220 Rams a year harvested. From 1993-2011 it has averaged 179 Rams a year. 23 percent drop. So yes there has been change in the last 30 years.

How's the cherry pie?



What was the harvest leading up to the peak years?

Do you think that the wolf cull in the early 80's might have played a role in the high 90's numbers?

Do you think that the disease issue in the Sheep river and Waterton played a role in the the reduced ram harvest from the peak years?

Do you think that the loss of vast prime hunting areas to provincial parks might have played a role in the reduced harvest?

Do you think that forest encroachment in wildland parks coupled with controlled burns in the adjacent national and provincial parks (no hunting areas) might be changes where sheep are choosing to live?



Carefull, that pie may contain pits.....

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

What's the longest wait for a Mulie tag 5 maybe 6 years. Most areas can be drawn a lot sooner compared to once in a lifetime for a sheep draw? Ya they're exactly the same...

And how exactly are you coming up with once in a lifetime for sheep?

Fighting the good fight with a lack of knowledge and misinformation can sometimes do more harm than good

[416 Ultramag]

We have to be careful in what we wish for here. Even as a bunch of sheep hunters we cannot agree on what to do as far as management goes. I agree a lot of problems are related to human encroachment. The increase of provincial parks has a direct impact on success numbers. As there is no hunting in provincial parks.
With that we have a large population of people who want to hunt sheep in a decreasing area where we are allowed to hunt.

So what do we do?
Have no changes and allow over the counter tags? How many people just buy sheep tags just in case they may see a ram while hunting deer or elk? This throws stats out the window for draw expectations.

Put it on draw and have 4/5 or full curl? People *itch that they will never be drawn blah blah blah.

Someone mentioned a five year wait between kills maybe they are right? Should we also say three ram lifetime limit?

We do need some serious data comparing zones that were open 20-30 years ago and zones that are still open today. Also numbers in relationship to sheep hunters to harvest in those same huntable areas.
I can remember hunting years ago around kanaskis lakes now Peter Laugheed, Spray lakes now Spray lakes provincial park.

This has definitely changed success rates as now we can't hunt these areas. It is not like we have less habitat, but we definitely have less huntable habitat.
We need less provincial parks and more wild land parks so we can still hunt but puts more restrictions on human encroachment (ski hills...)

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

How's the cherry pie?



What was the harvest leading up to the peak years?

Do you think that the wolf cull in the early 80's might have played a role in the high 90's numbers?

Do you think that the disease issue in the Sheep river and Waterton played a role in the the reduced ram harvest from the peak years?

Do you think that the loss of vast prime hunting areas to provincial parks might have played a role in the reduced harvest?

Do you think that forest encroachment in wildland parks coupled with controlled burns in the adjacent national and provincial parks (no hunting areas) might be changes where sheep are choosing to live?



Carefull, that pie may contain pits.....

I am not getting what point you are trying to make. I am just going by the information and research that I believe in. You have as much access to this information as myself or anyone else and you can come up with your own conclusions. I believe that the fact that we have fewer mature rams left over after hunting season is a problem that affects our sheep herds. It is also only one of the problems. I don't know what the answer is or what they are going to come up or if they are going to come up with anything. We all know what should be done in regards to habitat, predator control, access etc. who knows what they will do to address those issues. The fight is what to do with hunter harvest. I don't know what the answer is but I know people are naturally selfish and short sighted.

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

And how exactly are you coming up with once in a lifetime for sheep?

Fighting the good fight with a lack of knowledge and misinformation can sometimes do more harm than good

Simple math. 3800 people apply for 15 tags in cadomin. Put the all sheep on draw and that number will double because people like to apply for everything. We don't have tens of thousands of sheep like we do mule deer so they can't give out thousands of tags to keep wait times reasonable. Tell me how it would be different?

[chicken]

Do they really know all the facts that are required to make the changes?

Does anyone here know if and to what extent the biologists have included the national parks and protected areas in their surveys and research work? It says in the draft that there are approx. 4,500 sheep located within the 3 national parks and approx. 6,466 in the provincial areas. The question I have is:

How many sheep where in the parks (protected areas) 20 years ago or back in 1992? If there where maybe approx. 3000 in the parks and 8000 in the other areas we had most likely more rams and thus more older rams in huntable areas.

What, if we have way more rams in the parks now then 10 or 20 years ago? Then we can not consider this situation as a problem, ram population just shifted into areas where it is more difficult to collect data in terms of age etc., as no harvest numbers are available from the parks. Under consideration of the relation between overall sheep numbers...4,500 vs 6,466 it may have quite a impact percentagewise. Less rams available in hunting areas result into higher harvest numbers of younger rams.

*****************

2nd thought:

Is there enough data available about birth rates of rams vs. ewes? Behind this stands the thought of how much sheep habitat changed and if there is an impact to the birth ratio between ewes and rams? This would lead into the next question about the survival rate... Did the survival rate of lambs decline over the last 20 years? If so, why?
******************
3rd thought:

A very theoretical thought that probably opens the door to a lot of other issues. But, could a harvested ram be linked to a required mountain predator hunt?...No further ram harvest permitted without prove of predator kill in any of the 400 WMU's...wolf, cougar...this would revoke the 2 year waiting time. The predator hunt can not be in the same season the ram was harvested. As I said very theoretical, because how can you prove that the predator was killed in the mountains and so on....
The thought behind this is: Support of the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep population if you were successful harvesting a ram. I'm mean NOT a financial support.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks for confiming that you do Not know what the current concern is.

I state again that the hunting community must be informed f&w what the concern and reasoning for the current proposal. It is ridiculous that f&w has proposed restrictions without having completed the research.

What is the concern? Do they have some other secret agenda that hasn't been clearly stated before. From what I see it was stated in the 1993 and restated in the 2012 draft. Perhaps you could fill us in.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

It has changed significantly. Trophy ram harvest has decreased especially in the southern zones from 1993 onward. From 1980-93 we average probably 220 Rams a year harvested. From 1993-2011 it has averaged 179 Rams a year. 23 percent drop. So yes there has been change in the last 30 years.

New parks, restrictions and urban sprawl are to blame there...

[Speckle55]

all I know that in sheep hunting the success rate is very low and even though we give away all these tags the number of harvested Rams remain about the same ..we even gave 15 new opportunity's in 438

if we help the herds we have by have controlled burns and do a little tweaking of some herds with our transplant program and do some predator control in some areas as needed

if we start on a Draw system which isn't needed you will start loosing Sheep hunting numbers and take away hunting opportunity's making this a more elite sport .. right now young sheep hunters can start every year and have a opportunity to be successful even if its small chance and a 4/5 curl on their first year which is appealing

If they take away with out giving any more opportunity's then it is gone

if you ask 10 scientist the same question you will get 10 different answers which are opinions/theories

Why fix something that isn't broken

numbers 1970 numbers 2012 in hunt able Alberta

is there a movement to be the Bigger Trophy Hunting Alberta by reducing tags given out

Food for Thought

David

[Justahunter]

You disagree with the short sheep idea but think about this. IF someone takes a chance on a ram that is really heavy broomed but has 18 inch bases , is 10/11 yrs old but ends up 1/64 in. short why would you want to take it from him . Thing was gonna die anyway , plus the guy sacrifices his next ram. It is a no brainer. Take the good old ram . save the lamb tipped 6.5 yr old YOU would kill instead, save the crown prosecutor a bunch of $$$ . Hunter has a real trophy to boot. STOP and THINK a BIT, If it is an outfitter and the client chooses to take a chance and is the thickness of a piece of paper short why would you want to take this ram away when the outdfitter loses his next available tag. Trading a dead ship for a live sheep that ends up still alive seems way better then 2 dead sheep especially if the dead sheep is an old boy

[mad mountain mike]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

all I know that in sheep hunting the success rate is very low and even though we give away all these tags the number of harvested Rams remain about the same ..we even gave 15 new opportunity's in 438

if we help the herds we have by have controlled burns and do a little tweaking of some herds with our transplant program and do some predator control in some areas as needed

if we start on a Draw system which isn't needed you will start loosing Sheep hunting numbers and take away hunting opportunity's making this a more elite sport .. right now young sheep hunters can start every year and have a opportunity to be successful even if its small chance and a 4/5 curl on their first year which is appealing

If they take away with out giving any more opportunity's then it is gone

if you ask 10 scientist the same question you will get 10 different answers which are opinions/theories

Why fix something that isn't broken

numbers 1970 numbers 2012 in hunt able Alberta

is there a movement to be the Bigger Trophy Hunting Alberta by reducing tags given out

Food for Thought

David

^^^^ this, absolutely. ^^^^

[Lr1000]

I would even be for your first ram registered can be 4/5. Any ram after that full curl. That would save sheep and make hunters think twice on they're first ram

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Simple math. 3800 people apply for 15 tags in cadomin. Put the all sheep on draw and that number will double because people like to apply for everything. We don't have tens of thousands of sheep like we do mule deer so they can't give out thousands of tags to keep wait times reasonable. Tell me how it would be different?

438 is a separate draw code, lottery tag. Put all other 400 zones on draw and that will be a different code, separated by WMU's. How many general tags sold last year? (I'm feeling lazy right now and don't want to look). Think I saw a number of 2000 thrown out there. So safe to assume probably around 2000 draw applicants then? What was last years harvest? Once again, lazy, so lets say 150. Let's say if harvest was dropped to approx. 100 rams, should provide a better quality hunt in terms of trophy size in a couple years. That is a third less rams harvested, and that theoretically being done by reducing number of tags from 2000 to 1400. Remember success rates are pretty low on sheep. 1400 tags being applied for by 2000 hunters. Hardly once in a lifetime. These are just numbers thrown out there mind you.
Simple math

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

438 is a separate draw code, lottery tag. Put all other 400 zones on draw and that will be a different code, separated by WMU's. How many general tags sold last year? (I'm feeling lazy right now and don't want to look). Think I saw a number of 2000 thrown out there. So safe to assume probably around 2000 draw applicants then? What was last years harvest? Once again, lazy, so lets say 150. Let's say if harvest was dropped to approx. 100 rams, should provide a better quality hunt in terms of trophy size in a couple years. That is a third less rams harvested, and that theoretically being done by reducing number of tags from 2000 to 1400. Remember success rates are pretty low on sheep. 1400 tags being applied for by 2000 hunters. Hardly once in a lifetime. These are just numbers thrown out there mind you.
Simple math

So because only 2000 people bought general tags last year that's all that will apply for the draw? Where do the extra 1800 people that applied for cadomin come from then? if you believe that only 2000 people will apply I bet you have oceanfront property in alberta too...
Currently there are 12,000 people applying for sheep tags in alberta. Put the whole province on draw and that number will increase guaranteed. How do your wait times work now?

[cowboyhunter]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

You disagree with the short sheep idea but think about this. IF someone takes a chance on a ram that is really heavy broomed but has 18 inch bases , is 10/11 yrs old but ends up 1/64 in. short why would you want to take it from him . Thing was gonna die anyway , plus the guy sacrifices his next ram. It is a no brainer. Take the good old ram . save the lamb tipped 6.5 yr old YOU would kill instead, save the crown prosecutor a bunch of $$$ . Hunter has a real trophy to boot. STOP and THINK a BIT, If it is an outfitter and the client chooses to take a chance and is the thickness of a piece of paper short why would you want to take this ram away when the outdfitter loses his next available tag. Trading a dead ship for a live sheep that ends up still alive seems way better then 2 dead sheep especially if the dead sheep is an old boy

Where do you draw the line at SHORT sheep? I don't believe killing a squeaker ram is an ethical sheep hunting practice! Maybe your example of 18 in. Bases and 10/11 years old is doable but at what limit do you draw the line?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Exactly. A draw would kill sheep hunting as we know it. The real issue facing our sheep are
Availability of food
Habitat loss
Predator control
Subsistence hunting
If we focused on those 4 problems we could increase sheep populations, horn size and opportunity all without losing a thing. But ESRD doesn't want to face the problems head on.

These are probably 3 (not 4, habitat loss and availability of food are much the same) of the toughest issues facing sheep in Alberta (or anywhere for that matter)


1. habitat loss. This is a big one, but in order to correct that is going to take years and years, and a huge dollar amount. Controlled burns take a lot of planning and are extremely expensive. Way too many years of putting out fires has put us in quite a jam. There is no quick and easy way to fix this. Do you think the government is gonna run out and spend millions burning mountain sides to increase habitat for sheep? Sliding oil prices sure ain't gonna help that.

2. predator control. That again is a tough one. Wolves, how do you suggest we control their number in sheep country? I highly doubt there will be a poisoning program in the near future. Trappers and hunters i think are doing what they can. Unless we all are out there throwing out spongesicles every weekend, I can't see harvest numbers increasing.
Cats, now there's a different story and an issue that in my mind can be solved cheaper and more affectively. As i mentioned before cougars are the biggest killer of rams on 4 legs. Lets open up cats to trappers, any cats trapped do not go towards quotas. How about these houndsmen get out into actual sheep country and pursue out there. Maybe the boundries of the CMA's need to be changed to the front range.

3. subsitence hunting. I would love to see all trophy hunting of rams and any other animal for that matter stopped being done under the guise of subsitence hunting, but unfortunately I can't see that changing in the near future or until we get a government with enough balls to get it done

Now what is the cheapest and easiest way to increase numbers of mature rams on the mountain?

Much like mule deer 20some years ago, I'm sure we would all like to hunt sheep as much as possible with a crack at true trophy rams on a more regular basis.....but that will come at a price.

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

These are probably 3 (not 4, habitat loss and availability of food are much the same) of the toughest issues facing sheep in Alberta (or anywhere for that matter)


1. habitat loss. This is a big one, but in order to correct that is going to take years and years, and a huge dollar amount. Controlled burns take a lot of planning and are extremely expensive. Way too many years of putting out fires has put us in quite a jam. There is no quick and easy way to fix this. Do you think the government is gonna run out and spend millions burning mountain sides to increase habitat for sheep? Sliding oil prices sure ain't gonna help that.

2. predator control. That again is a tough one. Wolves, how do you suggest we control their number in sheep country? I highly doubt there will be a poisoning program in the near future. Trappers and hunters i think are doing what they can. Unless we all are out there throwing out spongesicles every weekend, I can't see harvest numbers increasing.
Cats, now there's a different story and an issue that in my mind can be solved cheaper and more affectively. As i mentioned before cougars are the biggest killer of rams on 4 legs. Lets open up cats to trappers, any cats trapped do not go towards quotas. How about these houndsmen get out into actual sheep country and pursue out there. Maybe the boundries of the CMA's need to be changed to the front range.

3. subsitence hunting. I would love to see all trophy hunting of rams and any other animal for that matter stopped being done under the guise of subsitence hunting, but unfortunately I can't see that changing in the near future or until we get a government with enough balls to get it done

Now what is the cheapest and easiest way to increase numbers of mature rams on the mountain?

Much like mule deer 20some years ago, I'm sure we would all like to hunt sheep as much as possible with a crack at true trophy rams on a more regular basis.....but that will come at a price.

Ok so you agree hunters aren't the issue then? Then why advocate and promote a huge loss of opportunity through a province wide draw?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

So because only 2000 people bought general tags last year that's all that will apply for the draw? Where do the extra 1800 people that applied for cadomin come from then? if you believe that only 2000 people will apply I bet you have oceanfront property in alberta too...
Currently there are 12,000 people applying for sheep tags in alberta. Put the whole province on draw and that number will increase guaranteed. How do your wait times work now?

Wow. How many sheep WMU's in Alberta? Sure splits it up doesn't it. How about 410, 438, and 444/445? You really think you will be able to apply for 2 different draw codes at the same time?
You're not putting in for suffield, 300, and cypress elk all in one year are you? If so you're probably not having a lot of success

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Ok so you agree hunters aren't the issue then? Then why advocate and promote a huge loss of opportunity through a province wide draw?

Gotta remember, hunters do play their part in the issue by harvesting of the animals.
I would love to be able to still buy a general mule tag in my home prairie zone, but if it were left general for the last 20some years, wouldn't be much trophy quality left. Sometimes as conservationists/hunters, we need to make a sacrifice as well, greed can't cloud our judgement.
As much as I would love to see big changes to the above 3 issues, I can't see them happening (at a rapid pace anyways)

What other suggestions do you or anybody else propose? I will not speak of the southern zones as I don't know enough about them to form an opinion, but there are zones here that are in trouble. 420 is a known problem, as are a couple others to the south I have frequented a lot and over the last few years have noticed a huge decline in numbers. I suppose we could put those 3 zones draw, but that will sure put a lot more pressure on other zones. I suppose I could put in for my draws out here, and when unsuccessful head for k country on a general tag.
There seem to be a lot of solutions, but what is the right one?

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Wow. How many sheep WMU's in Alberta? Sure splits it up doesn't it. How about 410, 438, and 444/445? You really think you will be able to apply for 2 different draw codes at the same time?
You're not putting in for suffield, 300, and cypress elk all in one year are you? If so you're probably not having a lot of success

Quick count of 30 WMU. With your number of 1400 tags thats 46 tags per WMU. 12,000 guys split evenly over 30 zones is 400. That's 400 guys applying for 46 tags... That's if they give 1400 tags which I don't believe they would. And if the applicant numbers stay the same which we know they won't.

Edit misread your numbers.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Quick count of 30 WMU. With your number of 1400 tags thats 46 tags per WMU. 12,000 guys split evenly over 30 zones is 400. That's 400 guys applying for 46 tags... That's if they give 1400 tags which I don't believe they would. And if the applicant numbers stay the same which we know they won't.

Edit misread your numbers.

You need to knock a few off your number of 12000. Might be a tad high.
Who the hecks gonna be left to apply for cadomin and the bow zones?
Maybe with nobody left to apply for 438 late season, I too may get drawn 3 times, maybe even in a row breaking a new record

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

You need to knock a few off your number of 12000. Might be a tad high.
Who the hecks gonna be left to apply for cadomin and the bow zones?
Maybe with nobody left to apply for 438 late season, I too may get drawn 3 times, maybe even in a row breaking a new record

Ok we agree on what the major issue is but not on the draw. I'll never accept that as a possible solution. WSFAB has money set aside every year to do burns we need to find out why those aren't happening. They also have money set aside to kill cats in sheep country maybe we should increase that and make access easier. These are things that need to be looked at first in my opinion.

[lake side]

I will throw my uneducated 2 bits in. I have never hunted sheep before but I have been appling for the last 10 years hoping one day to get out and possibly harvest a ram. Now I know a few are pushing for the ultimate super ram but I would be happy with an average ram. What would be the diffrence if I used my tag on a smaller animal..it may leave the big one for you next year.

If I have to wait another 5-7 years and most likley my only shot at it I would like to make sure my odds of taking an animal are better than 5% or what ever the stat is. I'm not stirring the pot but this is just my opion. Any ram to me would be a true trophy now matter what the curl is.

L.S

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by lake side

I will throw my uneducated 2 bits in. I have never hunted sheep before but I have been appling for the last 10 years hoping one day to get out and possibly harvest a ram. Now I know a few are pushing for the ultimate super ram but I would be happy with an average ram. What would be the diffrence if I used my tag on a smaller animal..it may leave the big one for you next year.

If I have to wait another 5-7 years and most likley my only shot at it I would like to make sure my odds of taking an animal are better than 5% or what ever the stat is. I'm not stirring the pot but this is just my opion. Any ram to me would be a true trophy now matter what the curl is.

L.S

You do know sheep is a general tag in all zones right? It's only during the rut your applying for.
This is also a prime example why we can't let people shoot any size of ram. Because guys that don't know any better would shoot 3year banana and half curls. Then there would be problems

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

You need to knock a few off your number of 12000. Might be a tad high.
Who the hecks gonna be left to apply for cadomin and the bow zones?
Maybe with nobody left to apply for 438 late season, I too may get drawn 3 times, maybe even in a row breaking a new record

Actual number is 21,034 for 2014 so 12,000 is probably VERY conservative.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Ok we agree on what the major issue is but not on the draw. I'll never accept that as a possible solution. WSFAB has money set aside every year to do burns we need to find out why those aren't happening. They also have money set aside to kill cats in sheep country maybe we should increase that and make access easier. These are things that need to be looked at first in my opinion.

Fantastic, I hope they start burning it up next year. Fires are extremely expensive though, they will need a pretty hefty bank account. I expect the liability insurance may be a little steep as well

As far as cats go, there is already access out in this area, dec. 1 a lot of the country opens up to snow machines (granted many years there isn't enough snow) Why aren't they hunting it now? I'm sure there are guys would love a little more of a rustic type cat hunt, rather than off the road. No reason the 400 zones out west here can't be hunted west of the front range, except it would be a lot more work.

And as far as wolves, well, there's more than one way to "skin" a wolf
There are some pretty effective ways to get rid of them

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Actual number is 21,034 for 2014 so 12,000 is probably VERY conservative.

Actually your first number of 12000 was far more accurate. But remember, those 12000 were all for 5 different draw codes. You do realize you can only apply for one draw code per year?
And you think that all these people with high priorities in say, 437, are going to switch to another draw code?

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Actually your first number of 12000 was far more accurate. But remember, those 12000 were all for 5 different draw codes. You do realize you can only apply for one draw code per year?
And you think that all these people with high priorities in say, 437, are going to switch to another draw code?

There are 3,515 applicants for 437.......279 are in the top three priority pools. So if the remaining 3,236 were smart they'd switch draws if a new one came along. So yes I do think they'd jump ship.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

There are 3,515 applicants for 437.......279 are in the top three priority pools. So if the remaining 3,236 were smart they'd switch draws if a new one came along. So yes I do think they'd jump ship.

Luckily they will be spread out over 30? WMU's.
It would be a tough choice of applying for a previously general WMU or 438, wouldn't it?