The Future of Sheep in Alberta

[Gulo gulo]

Thanks for the update Sheephunter.
I am glad to hear that they are moving away from the 5 year wait. Maybe more of these SRD folks pay attention to this forum than we realize. If we stick together as hunters we can promote change.

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It sounds as though F&W is backing away from the 5-year wait. Apparently there is power in the internet. The last word I got is that there will be public consultation before there are any changes. Good job to all those that took the time to express their concerns to the powers that be.

Hopefully this doesn't mean that they are leaning more towards a draw, because IMO a five year wait is peanuts compared to the wait time to get drawn.

I kind of figured there would be some public input into this, but it doesn't mean they haven't already made up there minds on what they are going to do and just throwing us a bone by including the public in "consultation". Where have I heard that before?

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

I kind of figured there would be some public input into this, but it doesn't mean they haven't already made up there minds on what they are going to do and just throwing us a bone by including the public in "consultation". Where have I heard that before?

LOL..no kidding hey. Definitely no time to let our guard down.

[bruceba]

Well I just heard something from a guy in Edmonton that indicates that 1 proposal being put forward will be a 2 year wait after a succesful harvest and then a 5 year wait after a second successful harvest. Again just one of several proposals being pushed. IMHO it's the one they're leaning towards.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It sounds as though F&W is backing away from the 5-year wait. Apparently there is power in the internet. The last word I got is that there will be public consultation before there are any changes. Good job to all those that took the time to express their concerns to the powers that be.

cool, hopefully the predator thing gets pushed and something logical that would curb the every other year meat ram thing would be great to see also

[Frans]

I've shot a ram a few years back, young, just legal, and I really felt I earned it, spending some 20 days in the mountains before connecting. I've spent several times that number of days in the mountains since and have yet to find a second legal ram (in season, and in a legal area). Somehow I still feel that it's probably more my (lack of) skills than anything else. The density of rams (number per square kilometer) is not so high to begin with, and with their propensity to bunch up during the months that we can hunt them, there are going to be very many empty basins.

I once found a group of some 25 rams, out of season; I know of another spot where they seem to bunch up late October, one year there were at least 12 rams up these, close to the park boundary, and there were a few beauties amongst them.

I'd hate to see barely legal rams, of younger age be killed by the same people time and time again (don't know if that happens). That said, who am I to deny a guy his first ram, even if it is a younger, smaller animal. Heck, I've done it myself.

I'd like to think the average sheephunter strives to improve upon the previous trophy. At least that is my goal.

I'd be very interested to see some more data on mortality, comparing hunted and non-hunted areas. Also some more data on ram density comparing hunted and non-hunted areas. A five-year wait is a very long time, I'd hope somthing like that would not be instated on a whim. Especially if we are still debating if there really is an issue of not enough rams, or not enough old rams. Show me some numbers.

Frans

[Hagar]

sheephunter,that great to hear,hopefully we can get the powers that be to listen to our side and that we can get some real numbers from them.

dinosaurhunter if the preseason population in 1989 was 5200 and the target population for 2000 was 6900 then given the growth rate of 1700 in ten years and continuing the trend the preseason population for 2010 should be 8600.Now you say you where told the population is 6900 and everything is fine.To my mind I think we are 10 years behind where we should be.We are also down in the harvest numbers as projected.With a population of 6900 the harvest was projected to be 248,or short about 100 rams.It was also projected that the non-resident harvest only be 41 on a population of 6900.

[rightroad]

Originally Posted by depopulator

If changes are being proposed for how and when a resident can hunt bighorn sheep, then certainly the guide/outfitter allocations should have similar restrictions, or eliminate non-resident sheep hunting altogether. I suspect non-resident guided sheep hunts likely account for a major proportion of both mature rams and the "5% of sheep hunters take 95% of the sheep." Curious why that was not given any thought or discussion ?

You might be onto something there. Here is Sask elk are for residents only and are seen as something special for residents of this province.

Sheep in Alberta might qualify for that status for sure.

[Bigfeet]

So, 4/5 curl for our first ram and possibly our second. Then full curl only after that. This should stop the 'every other year ram meat hunter', shouldn't it? The only problem with this is, as has been said on here before, some areas old rams never get to full curl. From what I have read, south of the Bow even very old rams may never reach full curl. So, maybe, either full curl or over 8 years old - although that opens up the whole debate of determining how old a ram is. Sounds like even F&W has trouble figuring this out on a dead ram let alone a live one. But some restriction on the age harvested (including non-residents) after having taken a few rams may help recruit more rams into that upper age and size class.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Bigfeet

From what I have read, south of the Bow even very old rams may never reach full curl.

This happens in every area of Alberta. All sheep zones carry sheep that are tight curled or big hooped. Also all of Alberta produces large and smaller based sheep.
There has been 16"+ based sheep shot in every zone in Alberta!

Originally Posted by Bigfeet

The only problem with this is, as has been said on here before, some areas old rams never get to full curl. From what I have read, south of the Bow even very old rams may never reach full curl. So, maybe, either full curl or over 8 years old - although that opens up the whole debate of determining how old a ram is. Sounds like even F&W has trouble figuring this out on a dead ram let alone a live one. But some restriction on the age harvested (including non-residents) after having taken a few rams may help recruit more rams into that upper age and size class.

It's definitely far more common with rams south of the Bow than anywhere else in the province. I've seen several rams over the years in excess of 40" that were no where close to full curl and likely never would be. Vanessa shot this 9-year old ram two years ago that scores a bit over 170 and he barely squeaked 4/5ths. This is a classic big loopy southern Alberta ram. I'm guessing a full-curl designation would cut the number of rams killed in the province by 75%. I'm not sure that's the ultimate goal. What a lot of guys call full curl rams definitely aren't. It takes a ram with a lot of curl to make full curl by legal definition. I'm guessing the number of short rams shot would go through the roof.



I remember a thread a while back where some very experienced sheep hunters called a ram in a picture a full curl and said they'd shoot the ram. It wasn't. I couldn't find the thread but here's the picture. It just goes to show how many short rams would likely be killed...

[pika]

[/QUOTE]

Full curl is easy to tell if you are square, this picture isn't square, in my opinion if you want to take the chance and the ram comes up short you should not be able to hunt sheep again!!, it's true some rams never get full curl but lots do if given the chance. Seems to be a lot of full curls in areas not hunted could it be 4/5 selects for smaller younger rams?? I think SRD really needs to examine their info to figure out if that is the case. I've let rams bigger than this go I'm sure it will make it through the winter

If you want to see how big the rams harvested by non-residents are just check out the sites by these outfitters, no wonder there are so few old big rams left in those areas in my opinion, some of those 4/5's rams are only 4.5 years old!!

If it's such a problem having a 170 class or larger 4/5's ram running around in a WMU maybe 4/5's should be on draw, then see what you get!! It's a shame to see a half dozen rinky dink rams tossed under a pool table that were shot just because it was legal to do so, I've seen it with my own eyes the hunter even regrets doing it after shooting two big full curls, he don't get up in the mountains anymore but there are a few guys that still shoot every legal ram that walks by.

I know guys that go out and shoot rams just for the capes
that's got to stop!!

I have let 12 legal rams go in 10 years, 5 were shot within a week of me passing them up, they ranged from 153 to 170 just small rams in my opinion, some had great potential to get huge but dead rams don't grow much. I'd like to see rams reach there potential.

[Hagar]

Pika I totally agree with you.I think we could leave the curl laws where they are and have a mandatory sheep hunters course priced to keep real sheep hunters but discourage the " meat and cape" hunters.It should also help educate hunters on the value of sheep and help in a more mature harvest.

I light of you comments on the outfitters maybe a minimum age of 8 years old,as they are guiding "trophy"hunters anyway.If they bring in anything younger they lose that tag for 2 years.That should put a stop to them harvesting young rams.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's definitely far more common with rams south of the Bow than anywhere else in the province. I've seen several rams over the years in excess of 40" that were no where close to full curl and likely never would be. Vanessa shot this 9-year old ram two years ago that scores a bit over 170 and he barely squeaked 4/5ths. This is a classic big loopy southern Alberta ram. I'm guessing a full-curl designation would cut the number of rams killed in the province by 75%. I'm not sure that's the ultimate goal. What a lot of guys call full curl rams definitely aren't. It takes a ram with a lot of curl to make full curl by legal definition. I'm guessing the number of short rams shot would go through the roof.



I remember a thread a while back where some very experienced sheep hunters called a ram in a picture a full curl and said they'd shoot the ram. It wasn't. I couldn't find the thread but here's the picture. It just goes to show how many short rams would likely be killed...

No sense even try and talking to guys like you TJ. We understand you beleive in your little head that everything is better or only happens in the south. You just prove to anyone that knows anything, how little you actually know. You say its far more common in the south. Why because you have seen a few. Every guy out there would like to think the area they hunt is the best, well in alberta the province is pretty equal in quality. I know you will just say I know nothing and that your right but this topic is a joke. There have been deep big hooped sheep killed through out the whole province. And some very tight curled rams shot in Kananaskis, same as there have been sheep of all base sizes killed everywhere. Horn configuration through out Alberta varies. Maybe you should leave the road hunting you do in Kananaskis and cover the whole province. Oh ya you will say you have...
You keep up the good work and you may even convince yourself that your right.
SG

[Hagar]

I believe all of Alberta has the ability to produce large full curl rams.Look at the records,they are from all over and look at the sheep in the parks.Look at the sheep Bert Rigall and Andy Russel hunted.I believe that the genetics,how ever fragmented,are still there.

A while ago there was a study released about how the sheep where getting smaller due to the trophy hunting of the largest sheep.I questioned these findings because there was no corilation as to the age of the sheep harvested.I think the sheep that where hunted 40-50 years ago were older then the sheep that are harvested now.If we were to harvest sheep of the same age as then I am sure our sheep would be as large as they once were.

So what does this all mean to the sheep hunter today?Or tomorrow?I think sheep hunters should be selective on the rams we harvest and rather then take the first legal ram hold out ,even of few years if need be,for a good mature ram.Now I can't speak for everyone,but that's what I am doing.And one day I will find a good ram and it will be all the sweeter.

Originally Posted by Hagar

I believe all of Alberta has the ability to produce large full curl rams.Look at the records,they are from all over and look at the sheep in the parks.Look at the sheep Bert Rigall and Andy Russel hunted.I believe that the genetics,how ever fragmented,are still there.

A while ago there was a study released about how the sheep where getting smaller due to the trophy hunting of the largest sheep.I questioned these findings because there was no corilation as to the age of the sheep harvested.I think the sheep that where hunted 40-50 years ago were older then the sheep that are harvested now.If we were to harvest sheep of the same age as then I am sure our sheep would be as large as they once were.

So what does this all mean to the sheep hunter today?Or tomorrow?I think sheep hunters should be selective on the rams we harvest and rather then take the first legal ram hold out ,even of few years if need be,for a good mature ram.Now I can't speak for everyone,but that's what I am doing.And one day I will find a good ram and it will be all the sweeter.

It's pretty well documented that southern Alberta has larger bodied rams and the big open curls are definitely more prevelant. That even becomes more prevelant in Montana. I've been told it has to do primarily with climate. If you take Willmore rams for example, they are much smaller bodied with typically tighter curls and even their ears are smaller. This is due to harsher winters. Certainly full curls exist throughout the range but the south definitely has more of the loopy type rams that might never reach full curl. Certainly big rams can show up anywhere but horn style definitely varies with geographic region.

The study about hunting affecting trophy quality is an interesting one and there is more research being conducted on it right now. Be interesting to see what it produces.

[Bigfeet]

OK, so trying to change the 4/5 curl rule as it stands now is not feasible in terms of not shooting young 6-7 year old rams - regardless of where you are in the province. Older rams may never reach full curl, so a full curl rule doesn't work either.
How about this, after the first 2 4/5 curl rams a hunter takes, they are still allowed to take another every second year - no change from what it is now. However, every subsequent ram a hunter takes from that point must be over 8 years. If the ram is not 8 years or older another year is added to his/her wait until they can hunt sheep again. This should stop the 'every other year sheep meat/cape hunter'. After a hunter has taken a couple of sheep, they should know what an older sheep looks like and, so long as it is over 4/5's curl, they would be allowed to take it. They would simply be penalizing themselves if they judged the age incorrectly. This would keep hunters hunting and allow more rams to grow into more mature animals. Good results all around? What do you think?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's pretty well documented that southern Alberta has larger bodied rams and the big open curls are definitely more prevelant. That even becomes more prevelant in Montana. I've been told it has to do primarily with climate. If you take Willmore rams for example, they are much smaller bodied with typically tighter curls and even their ears are smaller. This is due to harsher winters. Certainly full curls exist throughout the range but the south definitely has more of the loopy type rams that might never reach full curl. Certainly big rams can show up anywhere but horn style definitely varies with geographic region.

The study about hunting affecting trophy quality is an interesting one and there is more research being conducted on it right now. Be interesting to see what it produces.

i dont know how to highlight it, but the study of horn size was kinda published already. there may be more going on, but it was written about a year ago in the ALBETA GAME WARDEN magazine. im on the road working so i cant look it up, but what has been found is the opposite of what was expected. by targeting trophy rams it was feared that genetically smaller sheep might be favored to survive and breed. over the last 40-50 odd years, what they found was that sheep south of the bow have an average base size of half an inch larger than the northern rams. before you start jumping up and down hollering that base size does not equal trophy size, it can be argued successfully that a sheep with larger bases will at maturity be overall larger than a ram with smaller bases if all other things are equal. the most bizarre thing here is that targeting trophies did not lead to smaller sheep overall. in fact, the horn cicumference has actually increased by 5/8 of an inch if i remember right.
its true that monstro sheep come from everywhere in alberta, but if you take the artificial situations of the grande cache mine and cadomin out of the picture, then look at all the giants ever taken in alberta, it is clear that southern sheep are on average bigger. as for montana....it seems that genetically alberta sheep have better potential, but they manage for trophy quality, and therefore produce way more big sheep than alberta can ever hope to under the current system.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's pretty well documented that southern Alberta has larger bodied rams and the big open curls are definitely more prevelant.

Could you please post these curl and weight documents for all of us to see.
SG

[walking buffalo]

A few links to sheep studies.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf

http://www.nwsgc.org/contents/2006contents.html
Many more archived here.

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...pdf/BE2004.pdf

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul.../PRSB2002a.pdf

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

A few links to sheep studies.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf

http://www.nwsgc.org/contents/2006contents.html
Many more archived here.

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...pdf/BE2004.pdf

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul.../PRSB2002a.pdf

So going by these studies we are comparing southern alberta to Ram Mountain. Thats some top notch studying there! Compare a large interactive herd in the south to a very isolated small herd that today is next to non existant. Ive hunted ram mountain many times and using that herd as a representative of central or northern alberta rams is a joke. Its a small band that doesnt have other areas to travel and inter breed. They live on one small mountain that has minimal grassy south facing slopes and is mainly bush!!

As far as going with all these studies on base circumfrence. Just note that the world record is under 16".

[walking buffalo]

What's up your *****? I was just providing some links to sheep studies. I didn't place them in context with an opinion or conclusion. You sure do have a special way with people.

[Elko]

I have hunted the province wide, and seen alot of sheep from all over the province over the past 25 yrs, some from Montana. I agree with TJ on this one.

[ishootbambi]

i dont know how to highlight a quote SG, but right in the middle it says dont go jumping up and down about base sizes. it also says that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. i dont know anywhere in the world where sheep have the life they do at cadomin. zoos maybe? look at what they eat and the protection they have from people and predators. im not saying wolves bears and cougars dont exist, but the high presence of people keep them from living a fully natural life as well.
again...all things being equal, base circumference will carry throughout the horn to create larger rams at maturity ON AVERAGE. just curious, the long standing world record that croussen's ram beat out was from the south. anyone know offhand what his bases were? sorry darcy, but the croussen ram is the exception and not the rule.

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

just curious, the long standing world record that croussen's ram beat out was from the south. anyone know offhand what his bases were?

The Blind Canyon Ram was 16 5/8 both sides.

[ishootbambi]

thanks wolverine

[trashheap]

I'm not sure what to say about all of this, I for one have never shot a bighorn and have only been trying for a couple of years now. I enjoy it almost more than anything I have ever done. I hunt whitetails every year and have let many go because the one on my wall is bigger. I know how much harder it is to get a bighorn and would still do the same with them. With this said I would love to turn down a squeeker and let it grow and would not have any problem doing so if I knew things were not going to change with the rules. I watched a hunting video were in I believe it was wyoming (not positive on the location) they were talking about how a bighorn hunt was a one in a lifetime thing. This worries me because I like to get out for the hunt and a kill is always just a bonus. Hopfully they can come up with a solution sooner than later. So if everyone was willing to hold out and not shoot all the squeekers there may be more larger rams to go around. But even I have seen this is not the case.

I still beive we need to control the preditors more and both preditors and prey may balance out better.

[sheepguide]

Wasnt refering to any body about the Southern Alberta/ Ram moutain comparison study crap was just saying that it is a total waste of time compareing the Ram mountain herd to anywhere.

It doesnt really matter what anyone says on here as there are gunna be guys going both ways on this topic. There have been huge rams shot in every inch of alberta. Rams of every configuration from all reaches of Alberta.

If I was to take a guess on an area of alberta(excluding Cadomin) that has produced the most big rams id go with the Burnt Timber. And even when Sherwin was looking for his rams and had outfitters scouring the province I heard that the biggest ram they saw was hanging just inside the park on the head of the Burnt.

Oh well guess we will see in the future on how our sheep do, hope it doesnt get to the point of a once in a life time hunt but if it keeps going the way it has been it will.

SG

[Bigfeet]

I wasn't trying to stir up a conversation about the size of rams from various parts of the province. While interesting, my point was more on how we could manage sheep better. I've been giving it more thought and really think the idea I posted has good merit. Would really like to hear the opinion of those who know more about sheep than I do. Would this help with the age structure of rams? Do you see any problems with this idea?

[7MM Mike]

Bigfeet,
If you havent, you should take the time to sift through the 30 some odd pages of the sheep on draw thread, there are many ideas presented there already which arent dissimilar to your own. I think the reason no one really responded to your reply is because this topic has been beat to death.
The biggest problem with all of it is its just speculation without any hard data. Until that becomes available, there is no proof there are any issues with the provinces sheep populations.

SG, I dont know if you actually read the first link from walking buffalo, but the base comparisons were made between 4 WMU's south of the bow, and 4 WMU's north. This is an actual study with real data, and is probably a very good indicator of reality - not just opinion.

Mike