Big sheep changes

[Lr1000]

Thank god putting sheep on draw is not what's on the table. Seems like useless argument.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

New parks, restrictions and urban sprawl are to blame there...

I don't think it can be entirely explained away by that. Something seemed to have occurred in the period from 1992-1994 seasons. Why such a sudden decrease in these years. We have never came back to the harvest levels prior to that. Just an honest question that I don't know the answer to but would like to know. I left the province at this time and I don't recall what may have occurred during this specific time period.

Where's the guy with the cherry pie. He must know.

[Deer Hunter]

Why do most other species have an exclusive archery season, but sheep hunting doesn't? Outside of 410...

I guess sheep hunters should be thankful that special interest groups and the "draw" haven't destroyed a bunch of opportunity...

4/5 or full curl... To me it seems like there really isn't a whole lot of change to complain about here.

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Luckily they will be spread out over 30? WMU's.
It would be a tough choice of applying for a previously general WMU or 438, wouldn't it?

21,034 applicants for trophy bighorn are applying for a grand total of 64 tags. How can you believe it'll be so much different if the whole province is put on draw?

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Thank god putting sheep on draw is not what's on the table. Seems like useless argument.

Yes and hopefully it never comes to that ever. I'm just giving the numbers so guys have an understanding of exactly how crazy implementing a draw would be.

[freeride]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

I would even be for your first ram registered can be 4/5. Any ram after that full curl. That would save sheep and make hunters think twice on they're first ram

That doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
I just caught the sheep bug really bad last year, so while I have a vested interest and great concern I have admit realistically I don't have enough knowledge to weigh in on what I think would help.

One thing I can say is that I am busting out the cheque book to donate to the WSFAB to try and help out.

[KBF]

When will all changes that have been proposed for 2015, and there outcomes be announced? Next Spring.?

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by KBF

When will all changes that have been proposed for 2015, and there outcomes be announced? Next Spring.?

Changes would happen in 2016. Decisions announced prolly in March.

[KBF]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Changes would happen in 2016. Decisions announced prolly in March.

Sorry to jump off track here, but that would be for everything,? Also heard of elk changes in 400 and 402. Sorry guys done changing topic. As you were.

[mad mountain mike]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Yes and hopefully it never comes to that ever. I'm just giving the numbers so guys have an understanding of exactly how crazy implementing a draw would be.

Yes, it would quickly become a once in a life time draw if you're lucky.

[AlbertaCutthroat]

Originally Posted by KBF

Sorry to jump off track here, but that would be for everything,? Also heard of elk changes in 400 and 402. Sorry guys done changing topic. As you were.

I was curious if that is still on the table. Talked with a government guy last year and it sounded like a done deal, I have not heard a peep since. I was going to ask earlier but don't want to discuss those changes in this thread. If anyone has heard an update a new thread would be appreciated.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

These are probably 3 (not 4, habitat loss and availability of food are much the same) of the toughest issues facing sheep in Alberta (or anywhere for that matter)


1. habitat loss. This is a big one, but in order to correct that is going to take years and years, and a huge dollar amount. Controlled burns take a lot of planning and are extremely expensive. Way too many years of putting out fires has put us in quite a jam. There is no quick and easy way to fix this. Do you think the government is gonna run out and spend millions burning mountain sides to increase habitat for sheep? Sliding oil prices sure ain't gonna help that.

2. predator control. That again is a tough one. Wolves, how do you suggest we control their number in sheep country? I highly doubt there will be a poisoning program in the near future. Trappers and hunters i think are doing what they can. Unless we all are out there throwing out spongesicles every weekend, I can't see harvest numbers increasing.
Cats, now there's a different story and an issue that in my mind can be solved cheaper and more affectively. As i mentioned before cougars are the biggest killer of rams on 4 legs. Lets open up cats to trappers, any cats trapped do not go towards quotas. How about these houndsmen get out into actual sheep country and pursue out there. Maybe the boundries of the CMA's need to be changed to the front range.

3. subsitence hunting. I would love to see all trophy hunting of rams and any other animal for that matter stopped being done under the guise of subsitence hunting, but unfortunately I can't see that changing in the near future or until we get a government with enough balls to get it done

Now what is the cheapest and easiest way to increase numbers of mature rams on the mountain?

Much like mule deer 20some years ago, I'm sure we would all like to hunt sheep as much as possible with a crack at true trophy rams on a more regular basis.....but that will come at a price.

This is really at the heart of the matter when you boil it all down. Harvest numbers, trophy size and hunter opportunity can all increase if we pay enough attention to habitat. We could support double or triple the number of sheep in this province if we had the will and ability to burn most of the mountain country in the province. I've seen what happens in the big burns in N BC and it truly is amazing what happens to increase numbers of sheep and other game animals. Until this happens we are going to go down the other road of decreased harvest in one fashion or another, be it draw, full curl regulation etc. Harvest numbers will never increase and remain stagnant or decrease.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

Yes, it would quickly become a once in a life time draw if you're lucky.

I was around when mule deer went to 3 point on a general tag in the prairie zones, so of course remember when it went to a straight draw. Not sure if AO even existed then, doubt it, but I can just imagine the stink raised on here if it was. I can see this as one of the arguments being used.
IMO nothing but good has become of those changes. Doubt if we'd see a 240" mule from BV if they hadn't come about

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I was around when mule deer went to 3 point on a general tag in the prairie zones, so of course remember when it went to a straight draw. Not sure if AO even existed then, doubt it, but I can just imagine the stink raised on here if it was. I can see this as one of the arguments being used.
IMO nothing but good has become of those changes. Doubt if we'd see a 240" mule from BV if they hadn't come about

It's brought about a huge change in the mule deer in the province. When I left the province 20 years ago or so to see a 4 pt mule deer outside of the mountains was pretty much an occasion to buy a lotto 6-49 ticket.

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by bdub

It's brought about a huge change in the mule deer in the province. When I left the province 20 years ago or so to see a 4 pt mule deer outside of the mountains was pretty much an occasion to buy a lotto 6-49 ticket.

For sure its changed for the better! our zone we never saw a buck over 130 when it was 3 point general. Now we are getting lots in the 170-180 range and a few in the 190+ range for such a small zone its been very helpful.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by bdub

It's brought about a huge change in the mule deer in the province. When I left the province 20 years ago or so to see a 4 pt mule deer outside of the mountains was pretty much an occasion to buy a lotto 6-49 ticket.

There will always be a certain amount of greed when it comes to issues such as this, and the mule deer are a good example as well. Take the uproar raised when many zones were taken away from bow hunters on a general tag.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact we as Albertans can buy a general tag for sheep on a yearly basis even if its just for an excuse to get to the hills, and I'd hate to lose that privilage, but there are times we need to do what is right for the good of the hunting quality/experience. I'm pretty sure most of us are doing this for the trophy quality, not the table fare (that's just a bonus)

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

4/5 or full curl... To me it seems like there really isn't a whole lot of change to complain about here.

You obviously don't sheep hunt???

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

You obviously don't sheep hunt???

Just 2-3 years more in age. The average age of a whitetail buck.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Just 2-3 years more in age. The average age of a whitetail buck.

Ya no big deal right haha

[mad mountain mike]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

There will always be a certain amount of greed when it comes to issues such as this, and the mule deer are a good example as well. Take the uproar raised when many zones were taken away from bow hunters on a general tag.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact we as Albertans can buy a general tag for sheep on a yearly basis even if its just for an excuse to get to the hills, and I'd hate to lose that privilage, but there are times we need to do what is right for the good of the hunting quality/experience. I'm pretty sure most of us are doing this for the trophy quality, not the table fare (that's just a bonus)

So where is the greed Ti? Those of us who want the opportunity to pursue sheep every year or those of us who want to restrict Hunter opportunity to increase trophy quality?

[mad mountain mike]

We have to be careful what we wish for here, once sheep goes on a draw it will never come back and it will quickly creep into longer wait times until most will be lucky to draw one or two tags in a life time.
I personally would rather have the opportunity to chase 160 class Rams every year than a 180 class ram once in my life.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

We have to be careful what we wish for here, once sheep goes on a draw it will never come back and it will quickly creep into longer wait times until most will be lucky to draw one or two tags in a life time.
I personally would rather have the opportunity to chase 160 class Rams every year than a 180 class ram once in my life.

Agreed. However even now there is 180 inch sheep out there. You just can't spot em from the road. Well sometimes.

[bdub]

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...&%20Watson.pdf

I urge again anyone with an interest in better sheep hunting in our future to read and understand this research and voice your opinion. By shifting the harvest to older rams this strategy increases survival of younger Rams, better ewe survival and lamb reproduction and leads to increased harvest of more mature rams down the road in a relatively short period of time. I don't know how many serious sheep hunters have looked at this but it truley is worth your time to go over it and get a grasp of this. Thanks.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...&%20Watson.pdf

I urge again anyone with an interest in better sheep hunting in our future to read and understand this research and voice your opinion. By shifting the harvest to older rams this strategy increases survival of younger Rams, better ewe survival and lamb reproduction and leads to increased harvest of more mature rams down the road in a relatively short period of time. I don't know how many serious sheep hunters have looked at this but it truley is worth your time to go over it and get a grasp of this. Thanks.

Took a quick peek, noticed it was about Dall sheep. I didn't read it yet, but I will definitely read it, tonight!

But before I do, my first thought is that thin horns make full curl, a lot easier than Bighorns.....

[fingershooter]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Took a quick peek, noticed it was about Dall sheep. I didn't read it yet, but I will definitely read it, tonight!

But before I do, my first thought is that thin horns make full curl, a lot easier than Bighorns.....

No...............depends on the animal,

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Took a quick peek, noticed it was about Dall sheep. I didn't read it yet, but I will definitely read it, tonight!

But before I do, my first thought is that thin horns make full curl, a lot easier than Bighorns.....

That's the challenge with bighorns and how the are prone to brooming and the difficulty of aging them on the hoof. How do you encourage the harvest of older class 4 versus class 3 rams in the regulatory framework when you can have both old and young rams that may be 4/5 curl and even full curl depending in horn configuration.

I also realize the study was on Dall sheep but the evolution and behaviour of bighorns and dall is very similar. The same principles apply to the males and rutting behaviour and how it affects the sheep herd. Thanks for having a look Potty. I look forward to your hearing thoughts on it.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Took a quick peek, noticed it was about Dall sheep. I didn't read it yet, but I will definitely read it, tonight!

But before I do, my first thought is that thin horns make full curl, a lot easier than Bighorns.....

Agreed thinhorn and Bighorn management are much differnt, I saw a lot of full curl Dall sheep when I hunted them in Alaska. Only have seen 3 full curl rams hunting big horn and thy were young with lamb tips.

The biggest problem I see with management by the way of horn length is it doesn't nessesarily account for age structure. Also the population of sheep isn't in danger its just horn size that seems to have prompted this proposed change. If the government wants to grow bigger horns they need to start several burns and increase habitat to cadomine caliber. Also kill more cougars and wolves like what was already suggested. They will have monster rams running everywhere.

Also not killing 4/5 will do nothing for the population. Every year I see 60-80 almost legal rams. You would expect to see a similar number the next year that are just legal but you don't. There might be half of them left the next season and most of them broomed to sub legal. I really think there should be a quota on some of these 1/2 curl rams that don't make it regardless, like was suggested a limited "any ram" draw would be great in addition to the current season we have.

Other incentives to shoot older rams can also be put on the table like if you shoota 10+yr old ram maybe you don't have to sit out the next season. There is a lot of things that can be done to encourage taking the "right" age class of ram without further restricting hunting opportunities. Most of the people who support the full curl requirement are the first ones to bitch there is not enough resident opportunity, want even less opportunity support a full curl reg!

End of rant.

[Justahunter]

Reading all the thoughts one thing continually comes up. HABITAT and PREDATION. SRD simply is not capable of getting prescribed burns completed. TURN it over to a private company and it will be done sooner rather then later. Predator mgmnt is easy as well. OPEN the quotas on cougars and allow access into mountain/foothill zones. Hunters/trappers will do the rest
Three years from now nobody will even talk about restrictions because there will be no need for them

[Justahunter]

The Alberta sheep population is stable or increasing. If so why is this discussion even happening. It must be working. Maybe it can work better but what is really driving this need to reduce harvest. I think it may just be another GRIZZLY ( sorry about the misspelling) story of anti hunting sentiment that is growing within the dept.

[shooter]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

HABITAT and PREDATION.

These are the two keys to success in my opinion as well!