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  #121  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:16 AM
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Who has gone above and beyond complaining on the AO forum?
A lot of people! Concerns with sheep hunting changes are not just new this week, they've been going on for several years now.
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  #122  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:27 AM
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One of the issues is ageing sheep. You can give a sheep to three different people and get three different answers on age. It was a topic of discussion at the seminars last year at WSF in Red Deer. The age collection may be very inaccurate for that reason. They were working on a solution to that but I'm not sure what's come from it.
Exactly. ..

Thats why they are looking at regional registration stations. Which will have greater credibility when it comes to aging, if its done by fewer but more qualified personnel.
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  #123  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
I'm afraid we are living in a province growing by leaps and bounds, habitat is degrading, access is pretty easy everywhere, gear is improving, hunters ability is improving with the gear and free flow of knowledge and everyone wants to kill a ram.
I agree and I think this comment would also make sense on a lot of other "decline of the herd" threads on AO.

Can anyone post a link to the precise proposal? I did some looking around last night and couldn't find this anywhere. It's not included in the hunting regs public comment survey.

Anyone?
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  #124  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:21 PM
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I think the full curl rule is a good plan. Harvesting the oldest sheep is good management. I'm not saying that the oldest rams are always the longest horned but the majority will be. The oldest rams are not usually the breeding rams as they cant keep up to the rams in there prime. If we focus on killing the oldest (longest) rams we most certainly will grow the population of mature full curl rams. If we want beautiful, heavy, full curl rams, we need to grow them. We need to look long term. It will take a few years to see this benefit but it will come.

If we look at what they did in SE B.C. with elk we can see the benefit of harvesting the mature/old animals of a species. There was all kinds of pressure not to implement a 6 point season but they did! Prior to the 6 point rule it was hard to find a legal 3 point never mind a nice mature bull and to find one in the 300's was almost impossible. Now the elk hunting is excellent, regular bugling sessions and many bulls over 300 are shot every year.

I disagree with a shorter season. This to me serves no purpose except a political one! Hunter opportunity and sound management toward strong populations is key. Political pressure from the parks to limit hunter opportunity outside the parks is wrong on every front!! This is the fight not the full curl rule!!
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  #125  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:50 PM
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Show the problems and we can try and fix them. Not the smoke and mirrors that is going on.
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  #126  
Old 12-05-2014, 02:56 PM
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Is BC not all full curl for bighorns? That should be a great case study to look at to see how many sheep get harvested on a full curl rule and how effective it is on growing big Rams.
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  #127  
Old 12-05-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Goose 72 View Post
I think the full curl rule is a good plan. I'm not saying that the oldest rams are always the longest horned but the majority will be.
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I would disagree with this part of your post I have seen many many old mature rams broomed sub legal. Even have one broomed to 3/4 on a trail cam pic on my computer. The majority of full curl I have seen have been with lamb tips. I agree take old rams but full curl doesn't achieve this objective. I took a 9.5 yr old ram that was barely 4/5's and wasn't broomed, likly would never see full curl but a nice mature ram.
As for the 6 pt elk rule, I bet they have hundreds of big 5 pt now that will never be legal.

I really don't think we have a problem except gov tying to fix something that isn't broken. Full curl won't mean more opportuniy for a big ram it just means more rams will never have a chance of being harvested.
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  #128  
Old 12-05-2014, 04:02 PM
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Show the problems and we can try and fix them. Not the smoke and mirrors that is going on.
Don't you know all the problems Justin? post em up already!
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  #129  
Old 12-05-2014, 04:13 PM
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Lets look at the Numbers they don't lie

1970's in Alberta there were 5000 sheep

2012 in Alberta there are 5000 sheep not including 1000 on private Mining leases


Where is the problem

Every year the new recruits are becoming 4/5 curl right

or is this proposal about trophy size and restricting access to normal Albertans being pushed by certain special interest groups

Food for Thought

David
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  #130  
Old 12-05-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Speckle55 View Post
Lets look at the Numbers they don't lie

1970's in Alberta there were 5000 sheep

2012 in Alberta there are 5000 sheep not including 1000 on private Mining leases


Where is the problem

Every year the new recruits are becoming 4/5 curl right

or is this proposal about trophy size and restricting access to normal Albertans being pushed by certain special interest groups

Food for Thought

David
How about the zones with decreased numbers?
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  #131  
Old 12-05-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55 View Post
Lets look at the Numbers they don't lie

1970's in Alberta there were 5000 sheep

2012 in Alberta there are 5000 sheep not including 1000 on private Mining leases


Where is the problem

Every year the new recruits are becoming 4/5 curl right

or is this proposal about trophy size and restricting access to normal Albertans being pushed by certain special interest groups

Food for Thought

David
How many sheep hunters and rams killed by hunters (sorry, I cannot say "harvest") in the '70s?
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  #132  
Old 12-05-2014, 05:08 PM
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It would be nice to have a system that incentivized the harvesting of older rams and penalized (not for ever) the taking of younger rams, for both outfitter and resident hunters. A system that rewarded the harvesting of predators in core sheep areas.

A couple questions I have:

Are wild sheep populations down? If so, prove it using a valid unbiased scientific method.

What characteristics differentiate sheep populations and rams North and South of Brazeau? Is that an arbitrary line? Seems so.

What is the rational behind the reduced season in 400 and 302? Are to many immature sheep being shot in the last week of the season in those zones? Doubtful.

Seems likes its easier to manage a user group then look after wild sheep populations
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  #133  
Old 12-05-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bowhuntercam View Post
It would be nice to have a system that incentivized the harvesting of older rams and penalized (not for ever) the taking of younger rams, for both outfitter and resident hunters. A system that rewarded the harvesting of predators in core sheep areas.

A couple questions I have:

Are wild sheep populations down? If so, prove it using a valid unbiased scientific method.

What characteristics differentiate sheep populations and rams North and South of Brazeau? Is that an arbitrary line? Seems so.

What is the rational behind the reduced season in 400 and 302? Are to many immature sheep being shot in the last week of the season in those zones? Doubtful.

Seems likes its easier to manage a user group then look after wild sheep populations
Are you talking about a system where; If you harvested a 10 year old ram, your waiting period would be a year between eligible seasons. But, if you harvested a 5 year old ram, you would have to wait 5 years between eligible hunting seasons?

If so, isn't that playing to the hands of the changes, and admitting there is a problem?

As far as your other questions, that Brazeau line is an interesting line they have picked? Wonder why? And your absolutely right on the management of user groups! As far as the two zone reductions, that would be interesting to read about.....or like I said previously, the path all zones will follow ( the wmu 400 example)

Access in Dec-Feb, is probably the biggest reason why predator hunting isn't huge in sheep area's. Guys just don't want to walk in that far for predators , especially if your hauling dogs for cats!
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  #134  
Old 12-05-2014, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fingershooter View Post
How many sheep hunters and rams killed by hunters (sorry, I cannot say "harvest") in the '70s?
The numbers of kills remains the same up here little ups and downs .. just ask your Bio as the numbers are there

and guess what the number of sheep in province remain the same so you will have the same number of rams turning 4/5 curl

you guys the special interest group?

if the total number remains the same and the number harvested stayed the same per year and the balance of numbers as in Ram & Ewe

look at a longer number as you will have ups and downs in certain areas even in the states they have large herd die off in certain areas but the over all health is ok and will use transplants to add genetics enhancements

The Sky is Falling run lmao

Special Interest Groups

Food for Thought

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  #135  
Old 12-05-2014, 05:49 PM
Goose 72 Goose 72 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Roughneck Country View Post
I would disagree with this part of your post I have seen many many old mature rams broomed sub legal. Even have one broomed to 3/4 on a trail cam pic on my computer. The majority of full curl I have seen have been with lamb tips. I agree take old rams but full curl doesn't achieve this objective. I took a 9.5 yr old ram that was barely 4/5's and wasn't broomed, likly would never see full curl but a nice mature ram.
As for the 6 pt elk rule, I bet they have hundreds of big 5 pt now that will never be legal.

I really don't think we have a problem except gov tying to fix something that isn't broken. Full curl won't mean more opportuniy for a big ram it just means more rams will never have a chance of being harvested.
Thank you for bringing up the point that there would be an abundance of 5 point Bulls because that was one of the major arguments against the 6 point rule. This shift has never happened. There is simply more 6 point bulls, bigger Bulls and a larger population.

I believe the same thing will happen with sheep if we alow them to mature. Yes sheep will broom, but we are talking like all sheep will broom to the point where they never reach full curl. I've never seen s book ram at 4/5 curl. The majority of mature rams, if given the time, will reach full curl.

There is no dought that in the short term hunter success rate will decline as they did with the elk in SE B.C. But in a few years the success rates will return only we'll be killing bigger Rams.
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  #136  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Goose 72 View Post
Thank you for bringing up the point that there would be an abundance of 5 point Bulls because that was one of the major arguments against the 6 point rule. This shift has never happened. There is simply more 6 point bulls, bigger Bulls and a larger population.

I believe the same thing will happen with sheep if we alow them to mature. Yes sheep will broom, but we are talking like all sheep will broom to the point where they never reach full curl. I've never seen s book ram at 4/5 curl. The majority of mature rams, if given the time, will reach full curl.

There is no dought that in the short term hunter success rate will decline as they did with the elk in SE B.C. But in a few years the success rates will return only we'll be killing bigger Rams.
Being a trophy hunter myself, this sounds amazing! But, Esrd doesn't care about trophy size in Alberta. Not for sheep or any other species. This about managing user groups and reducing hunters....

Everytime they take something away, we never see it returned. I would have more faith in the government, If they were more open with their work, or even returned something they've taken away (grizz hunt, or a previous huntable area that turned park)...
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  #137  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:17 PM
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Some quick points. ..

I asked the WSFAb to inquire at the AGMAG meeting this week as to a rumour that f&w was going forward with a full curl regulation.

The result of the enquiry was an admission that there is a proposal to take effect for the 2016 seaon
- full curl from 434 south.
- shortened season for 302 400(already full curl)
- Yukon protocol for aging/measuring to be implemented
- regional registration centers will be established.

F&w wanted to have these changes in place for 2015 but ran out of time to do so.

We (wsf) are waiting for a copy of the proposal that will include concerns and supporting data. At the urging of the WSF, a stakeholders sheep meeting will held in early March 2016.
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  #138  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:21 PM
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A six point bull elk regulation is analogous to a 1/2 to 3/4 curl sheep. A minimum three to four year old animal.

A full curl regulation would be comparable to a seven point bull elk rule.... nothing to do with limiting hunting to old animals, just a way to severly limit harvest numbers....
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Last edited by walking buffalo; 12-05-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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  #139  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:28 PM
Goose 72 Goose 72 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
Being a trophy hunter myself, this sounds amazing! But, Esrd doesn't care about trophy size in Alberta. Not for sheep or any other species. This about managing user groups and reducing hunters....

Everytime they take something away, we never see it returned. I would have more faith in the government, If they were more open with their work, or even returned something they've taken away (grizz hunt, or a previous huntable area that turned park)...
I completely agree with you're statement about the government. They are very difficult to trust. My main concern is with them shortening the season. This is a permanent change no dought. When hunting opertunities are taken away they are almost impossible to get back. We've all seen it. I think this is where our focus should be.
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  #140  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:32 PM
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im curious....has the afga taken a stand on the issue.
lololol!!!
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  #141  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:35 PM
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All these surveys srd is doing...
More effort wasted on taking dogs big game hunting, didn't have room for real issues...
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  #142  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:44 PM
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While we don't know the official reasoning (concern) for the proposal. ...

This proposal is being pushed by jon Jorgenson, an Alberta gov. biologists that is promoting a theory as fact that hunting has genetically changed sheep, and that the hunting of rams must be significantly reduced.

The inclusion of introducing the Yukon protocol and regional registration centers is in admission that the historical harvest data is poor. The same data that Jorgenson is using for
his genetic harm claims.

The full curl regulation is being promoted as a safe way to ensure the maintenance of mature rams in a population while maintaining season length and hunting opportunity. Then why is season being shortened in 302/400? This is fishy and speaks volumes to the proposal's potential to include further restrictions on hunting. ....
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  #143  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:48 PM
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Did F&W do a bh sheep aerial survey last winter. ... ?
I heard no.....

It has been a very long time since comprehensive surveys have been completed. ....
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  #144  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Did F&W do a bh sheep aerial survey last winter. ... ?
I heard no.....

It has been a very long time since comprehensive surveys have been completed. ....
Surprised they aren't handing the tags out like mules and antelope lol. Theres lots, heres 400 ram tags per wmu, 500 ewe tags, and earn a ram program through the slaughter of 2 ewes, rinse and repeat. God forbid they find that bighorns could carry CWD. Pronghorn don't,,, wonder when sheep are gonna make someone mad like the antelope did....
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  #145  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:00 PM
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This proposal was unanimously opposed by all AGMAG hunting groups the last time around.
APOS was very strongly opposed to these types of changes. I suspect that they will maintain their position in disagreeing with the new proposal.


This is purely a government initiative based from a few sheep biologists. Not all Alberta sheep biologists agree with the proposal.
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  #146  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:02 PM
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Surprised they aren't handing the tags out like mules and antelope lol. Theres lots, heres 400 ram tags per wmu, 500 ewe tags, and earn a ram program through the slaughter of 2 ewes, rinse and repeat. God forbid they find that bighorns could carry CWD. Pronghorn don't,,, wonder when sheep are gonna make someone mad like the antelope did....
Stay focused man... stay unbanned.... lol...
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  #147  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Did F&W do a bh sheep aerial survey last winter. ... ?
I heard no.....

It has been a very long time since comprehensive surveys have been completed. ....
No aerial survey? No aggressive predator management? Very conservative cougar quotas (1 Tom 1 female in the willmore) why not unlimited cougar quotas in "sheep" zones? Why no helicopters slinging in poisoned roadkills?
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  #148  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:08 PM
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Stay focused man... stay unbanned.... lol...
LOL sorry will try to stay with u guys
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  #149  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:26 PM
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I would be for full curl, not shortening seasons if they reinstated grizz tags in units that need managed, upped cougar quotas and set dates for controlled burns. Until they show they care for the lively hood of sheep hunters and sheep, I see no reason to take it out on the hunters.
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  #150  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:43 PM
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I would be for full curl, not shortening seasons if they reinstated grizz tags in units that need managed, upped cougar quotas and set dates for controlled burns. Until they show they care for the lively hood of sheep hunters and sheep, I see no reason to take it out on the hunters.
Have they ESRD, scientifically identified an issue with sheep? Not that I'm aware of. They are speculating.

Is there a real population problem at the moment? The last study shows the same data roughly since the 90's so I'm not seeing the issue.

We'd all love bigger sheep but at what cost, loss of hunting opportunity should be the last viable option... Not the first.

Here's the info Im referring to.
http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Feb03-2012.pdf
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