Barbless Hooks

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

does a barbed hook directly result in fish moratlity....i dont know
But im quite sure its speeds the release of a hooked fish
Heres a simple experiment for everyone to try. Go to your tackle box and get two number 4 trebles...1 fully barbed and the other de-barbed. Drive both hooks into your body, you pick the spot i dont think it matters as long as both hooks are in the same area.
Get a friend to try remove the hooks for you...You squirm and flop like a fish
Now time how long each takes to remove the hook

Two years ago at (payne lake-ironically), I was trolling some small raps and other cranks(barbs were pinched). Fishing was a little slow so I had about 8 small cranks tangled up in a messy ball. So I thought I would separate and pinch the barbs. Was wearing sweat pants, anyway looked up to see the largest rainbow of the day jumping behind the boat so I dropped the mess of cranks beside me and proceeded to have a tug of war with the bow. After a quick release. Wiped my hand on the pants - ouch the ball of cranks had stuck to my pants. All My cranks get their hooks changed out to premium hooks. And I managed to get my fingers into a couple. Had to remove my pants to sort out andclear my hand from the pants.

Now I removed all hooks but one that was burried to the bend(last joint middle finger). And yes it still had the barbs(they all did). Quick twist with the pliers and it was out!

Did it hurt - or course but removal was still quick(quick twist with the pliers). And I did the removal myself.

Fighting another fish within 5 minutes of removal

Education on fish handling could alleviate much of the mortallity rates.

I also see nobody touching the baitless comment, so I guess none of you use bait(good on you). That makes your comments about being easier on the fish and such more valid.

[Sundancefisher]

Interesting thread

Here is a short read...

http://nativefishsociety.org/conserv...tReview408.pdf

http://www.moucheur.com/divers/TroutHooking.pdf

https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/Fish...al%20Issue.pdf

I would suggest people review these.

In general I am not opposed to fishing barbless. Yes you do loose more...we see that first hand salmon fishing as hooks get thrown by a jumping coho.

Research shows there is no real clear benefit to going barbless. Intangible benefits such as having more fish get away, increasing the challenge, forcing people to adopt better fishing techniques are not that significant.

The biggest problems in fisheries is not the barbed hooks but treble hooks and use of bait.

For all those advocating barbless is good...if you are truly looking at it for the right reasons versus some other ulterior motive...then you should be 100% against trebles and bait.

It is really that simple.

The main beefs I have is that the enforcement is hit or miss...insofar as being fair to the fisherman. If there was a clear attempt to pinch a barb...IMHO that should count. None of this stupid running the hook through a wool sweater swatch...etc. That is asinine. Also...when I tie flies...it is very annoying problem having the hook break or become weakened.

If I could make the rules...I would ban bait and trebles and require an attempt to pinch the barbs.

Sun (Free to Use this Spot to type an additional phrase)

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Interesting thread

Here is a short read...

http://nativefishsociety.org/conserv...tReview408.pdf

http://www.moucheur.com/divers/TroutHooking.pdf

https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/Fish...al%20Issue.pdf

I would suggest people review these.

In general I am not opposed to fishing barbless. Yes you do loose more...we see that first hand salmon fishing as hooks get thrown by a jumping coho.

Research shows there is no real clear benefit to going barbless. Intangible benefits such as having more fish get away, increasing the challenge, forcing people to adopt better fishing techniques are not that significant.

The biggest problems in fisheries is not the barbed hooks but treble hooks and use of bait.

For all those advocating barbless is good...if you are truly looking at it for the right reasons versus some other ulterior motive...then you should be 100% against trebles and bait.

It is really that simple.

The main beefs I have is that the enforcement is hit or miss...insofar as being fair to the fisherman. If there was a clear attempt to pinch a barb...IMHO that should count. None of this stupid running the hook through a wool sweater swatch...etc. That is asinine. Also...when I tie flies...it is very annoying problem having the hook break or become weakened.

If I could make the rules...I would ban bait and trebles and require an attempt to pinch the barbs.

Sun (Free to Use this Spot to type an additional phrase)

Good read! Thanks for posting Sundancefisher.

[Dust1n]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

No evidence to support that!

"here in alberta we got less stronger species like trout, and using a spoon with a barb will rip its moouth apart after a few catches."

Sorry kid, gotta call bull on that one.

have you ever caught a small stocker at a pond and ripped the barb out of its tiny mouth/ well it didnt survive it had a ripped up jaw.

[boot]

First off, barbed hooks do increase the mortality rate. Even on a size 10 hook with a barb, I've had to man-handle fish to remove some barbed hooks (in BC). In some cases, the barb is embedded so badly that the jaw is damaged when removing the hook.

The problem gets even worse when fishing with a bobber and bait. If you're too slow to set the hook, the fish will eat the bait and the hook gets embedded in organs or the gill rakes. Good luck releasing the fish after that happens.

Anyhow, with that said, I still think they should relax the barbed laws in Alberta. All streams, rivers and sensitive lakes should ban barbed hooks, trebles and bait. But the stocked put/grow/take lakes should allow barbs. I know for most of the experienced anglers, barbs or barbless may not make that much of a difference, but try taking a new angler out or even children and it's a different story. How do you explain to a 3 or 4 year old that you need to keep the pressure on the fish?

[boot]

Originally Posted by jeprli

i'm pretty sure it shouldn't be a problem with a plug that's loaded to the tits(which i also use, but two trebles at most are good enough for most of my fish).

Is this legal? I thought the regs stated that you're only allowed to fish 3 hooks on a single line (3 separate or 1 treble).

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by boot

Is this legal? I thought the regs stated that you're only allowed to fish 3 hooks on a single line (3 separate or 1 treble).

You need to read the whole regs



General Sportfishing Restrictions
It Is Unlawful To:

• Use a line in angling equipped with more than three hooks (e.g., three hooks, or three single-hook lures, or one three-hook lure).
• Use a lure in angling with more than three hooks as part of it.
• Use a hook with more than three points on a common shaft

Definitions

• Hook – means a single-, double- or triple-pointed hook on a common shaft, and includes hooks attached to a lure.

(Note: some legal lures appear to have a hook with four points, but actually have two shafts each with two points).

Hope that answers your question...

[boot]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Definitions

• Hook – means a single-, double- or triple-pointed hook on a common shaft, and includes hooks attached to a lure.

Thanks! It's interesting that they allow 3 trebles on a single line (no size limitation either?), yet having a barb on a size 20 fly is a no-no. Hehe...

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Fish Hunter7

have you ever caught a small stocker at a pond and ripped the barb out of its tiny mouth/ well it didnt survive it had a ripped up jaw.

Id really like to see how you are unhooking a fish that it would cause such damage! Could also be your handling, but I will give you an out, was it a trebble hook by chance? Then yes, I have seen damage done.

And yes, I have and do release them successfully.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by boot

First off, barbed hooks do increase the mortality rate. Even on a size 10 hook with a barb, I've had to man-handle fish to remove some barbed hooks (in BC). In some cases, the barb is embedded so badly that the jaw is damaged when removing the hook.

The problem gets even worse when fishing with a bobber and bait. If you're too slow to set the hook, the fish will eat the bait and the hook gets embedded in organs or the gill rakes. Good luck releasing the fish after that happens.

Anyhow, with that said, I still think they should relax the barbed laws in Alberta. All streams, rivers and sensitive lakes should ban barbed hooks, trebles and bait. But the stocked put/grow/take lakes should allow barbs. I know for most of the experienced anglers, barbs or barbless may not make that much of a difference, but try taking a new angler out or even children and it's a different story. How do you explain to a 3 or 4 year old that you need to keep the pressure on the fish?

Ya think, sometimes it might be better to cut the line then fish out your hook?
Part of the problem is education, people need to know how to handle fish and when it is better to cut the line or even the hook.

How many people here carry side cutters to snip a hook or line? And that should be used a lot more when bait fishing!!!!!!!

[boot]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Ya think, sometimes it might be better to cut the line then fish out your hook?
Part of the problem is education, people need to know how to handle fish and when it is better to cut the line or even the hook.

How many people here carry side cutters to snip a hook or line? And that should be used a lot more when bait fishing!!!!!!!

Uh, I kept the fish, so why would I cut my line? It's not like I man-handled it and then carefully released it. All I was saying is that barbs do increase mortality and you can't tell how badly a bard is stuck, until you try to remove it. Unless of course YOU cut your line every time you catch a fish with a barb (outside of AB)?!?

Anyhow, some people need to get off their high horse. If you think that barbs don't increase mortality and that your fish education/skill is at a level where you can handle fish equally (barbed or not barbed), then that's simply amazing and I applaud you.

And as for knowing when to cut the line? We're in Alberta and it's barbless here. Unless I'm releasing a deep hooked fish (very rare while fly fishing), why would I cut the line? The hook will usually fall out by itself in the net.

[chubbdarter]

all these studies are fine and do hold some stong info.
but every situation is different....some fisherpeople could do more harm with a barbless hook release then a person doing a barbed hook release. The actions of the individual and the specific situation are determiing factors on the welfare of the fish.
Even the treble and bait issue is not simple to conclude. I truely believe wallyes are hooked deeper with a single octopus than a treble.

[boot]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Id really like to see how you are unhooking a fish that it would cause such damage! Could also be your handling, but I will give you an out, was it a trebble hook by chance? Then yes, I have seen damage done.

And yes, I have and do release them successfully.

How can you assume he has poor handling skills? Even a tiny barb on an 8 inch trout can cause damage to the jaw. If you're going to release a fish (not sure why you'd be using a barb... BUT if you did), you're going to want to remove the hook quickly and release it quickly. I'm going to assume you haven't used barbs very often or you haven't used them on small trout. Yes, you can release trout with barbed hooks safely, but sometimes it gets stuck in a soft place around the jaw and any bit of pressure on an 8 inch fish can causes damage that a non-barbed hook wouldn't have done.

[BGSH]

obviously when you de barb a hook it increases fishes chance of survival compared to a barbed hook, its common sense, and if you debarb your hook and play a fish right you will not lose your fish

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by boot

Uh, I kept the fish, so why would I cut my line? It's not like I man-handled it and then carefully released it. [B]All I was saying is that barbs do increase mortality[/B] and you can't tell how badly a bard is stuck, until you try to remove it. Unless of course YOU cut your line every time you catch a fish with a barb (outside of AB)?!?

Anyhow, some people need to get off their high horse. If you think that barbs don't increase mortality and that your fish education/skill is at a level where you can handle fish equally (barbed or not barbed), then that's simply amazing and I applaud you.

And as for knowing when to cut the line? We're in Alberta and it's barbless here. Unless I'm releasing a deep hooked fish (very rare while fly fishing), why would I cut the line? The hook will usually fall out by itself in the net.

You never indicated you kept the fish

"Anyhow, some people need to get off their high horse. If you think that barbs don't increase mortality and that your fish education/skill is at a level where you can handle fish equally (barbed or not barbed), then that's simply amazing and I applaud you."

Your kidding right? I have stated that there is little to no evidence to support the barbless issue. Your the one manhandling fish not me

You are entitled to make any claim you wish. Evidence does not currently support your claim though(at least not any definable amount).

Can hooks kill fish? Yes, do barbs noticeably increase mortallity rates - jurys still out.

Still boils down to fish handling. And lots of variables involved.

Guess I have had different experiences than you. Most fish I catch are able to be released while in the water. Barbed or barbless. If the hook is in the mouth, pliers usually make removal fairly quick and easy. If the hook is in or close to gills or stomach cut the line. That process works well with barbed or barbless. No need to manhandle fish

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by boot

How can you assume he has poor handling skills? Even a tiny barb on an 8 inch trout can cause damage to the jaw. If you're going to release a fish (not sure why you'd be using a barb... BUT if you did), you're going to want to remove the hook quickly and release it quickly. I'm going to assume you haven't used barbs very often or you haven't used them on small trout. Yes, you can release trout with barbed hooks safely, but sometimes it gets stuck in a soft place around the jaw and any bit of pressure on an 8 inch fish can causes damage that a non-barbed hook wouldn't have done.

Been fishing for at least 50 years. Have used barbed hooks and have used barbless since its implementation. Also flyfish, spin, troll, jig, etc.

How can you not assume that? When he stated: "have you ever caught a small stocker at a pond and ripped the barb out of its tiny mouth/ well it didnt survive it had a ripped up jaw"

Besides no damage was done by the hook itself, right? The barb does the only damage? Get real.

However, yes can be harder on small fish, and with all the other variables it is also easier to hook small fish fatally anyway!

Mortallity rates could have been lowered just with an education in fish handling and probably made a bigger impact on mortallity rates.

By the way did you read some of the studies done that were posted by Sundancefisher?

I will point out again, I do pinch my barbs.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by best guide shawn homeniuk

obviously when you de barb a hook it increases fishes chance of survival compared to a barbed hook, its common sense, and if you debarb your hook and play a fish right you will not lose your fish

It really isnt cut and dried like you think.


From Sundancefishermans post


Interesting thread

Here is a short read...

http://nativefishsociety.org/conserv...tReview408.pdf

http://www.moucheur.com/divers/TroutHooking.pdf

https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/Fish...al%20Issue.pdf

I would suggest people review these.

And as I said if you really want to do something about fish mort, then ban bait and trebble hooks.

[huntsfurfish]

page 879 of the Idaho report is a summary and might surprise you.

[chubbdarter]

FACT...most people arent fish experts....alot of fisherpeople fish 1-2 times a year.
They arent interested in learning fish handling skills and thats their choice!!!!. They bought a licence and caught a fish legally.....they enjoyed the experience.
Ever see some of these people scream when hey catch a fish, and the screaming gets louder when they have to now touch the fish. I laugh not at them but at what a great sport fishing is to bring such happiness to all sorts of people.
Line goes slack and the flopping fish throws the barbless hooks and the rolls in the dirt until someone gently guides it back into the water. Maybe not the best method...but that fish has the chance to live another day. Most casual fisherpeople never give slack reeling a fish in......fish ski in at top speed..lol
Barbless hooks i repeat may not DIRECTLY save a fishes life....but i know barbless hooks make releaseing fish easier for EVERYONE.
A fish which has a crankbait hook in its eye...is probably gonna go blind in that eye.....with a barbless hook at least its eye stays in its face.

If the arguement is there is no clear cut answer what is better.....than we should side with caution and respect the barbless law.
If nothing else its not a hard law to deal with.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

FACT...most people arent fish experts....alot of fisherpeople fish 1-2 times a year.
They arent interested in learning fish handling skills and thats their choice!!!!. They bought a licence and caught a fish legally.....they enjoyed the experience.
Ever see some of these people scream when hey catch a fish, and the screaming gets louder when they have to now touch the fish. I laugh not at them but at what a great sport fishing is to bring such happiness to all sorts of people.
Line goes slack and the flopping fish throws the barbless hooks and the rolls in the dirt until someone gently guides it back into the water. Maybe not the best method...but that fish has the chance to live another day. Most casual fisherpeople never give slack reeling a fish in......fish ski in at top speed..lol
Barbless hooks i repeat may not DIRECTLY save a fishes life....but i know barbless hooks make releaseing fish easier for EVERYONE.
A fish which has a crankbait hook in its eye...is probably gonna go blind in that eye.....with a barbless hook at least its eye stays in its face.

If the arguement is there is no clear cut answer what is better.....than we should side with caution and respect the barbless law.
If nothing else its not a hard law to deal with.

Chubby has spoken!

Doesnt make educating any less important now does it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes it is hard law to deal with.

$200.00 fine for no pinched barb and $125.00 for an undersize fish?

I forget from time to time to pinch my barb, fortunately I have not got a ticket for it. And there is to much discretion for what constitutes a pinched barb. My opinion barbless should be optional and left up to the fisherman for now.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Chubby has spoken!

Doesnt make educating any less important now does it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nope it doesnt....but argueing with a law that can possibly save a few fish, especially the general fishing public that dont care to learn more is rather pointless.

Learning more about what may be proper is not high on the important list for the vast majority of licence holders.

Its a law that potentially can save a few fish....thats good enough for me

[huntsfurfish]

Do you use bait CD?

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Do you use bait CD?

by the case

[horsetrader]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Chubby has spoken!

Doesnt make educating any less important now does it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes it is hard law to deal with.

$200.00 fine for no pinched barb and $125.00 for an undersize fish?

I forget from time to time to pinch my barb, fortunately I have not got a ticket for it. And there is to much discretion for what constitutes a pinched barb. My opinion barbless should be optional and left up to the fisherman for now.

If you fish barbless or not is optional and is left up to you it's just the fine you get if you get caught that is not ....so it's your choice.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by horsetrader

If you fish barbless or not is optional and is left up to you it's just the fine you get if you get caught that is not ....so it's your choice.

lol point taken.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Chubby has spoken!

Doesnt make educating any less important now does it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes it is hard law to deal with.

$200.00 fine for no pinched barb and $125.00 for an undersize fish?

I forget from time to time to pinch my barb, fortunately I have not got a ticket for it. And there is to much discretion for what constitutes a pinched barb. My opinion barbless should be optional and left up to the fisherman for now.

im older than dirt....a regular fisherman.....near blind....pretty forgetful

but

i still put on my magnafiers and take my time to pinch barbs flat....i used to hate the setbelt law....but its instinctive now.

If i fail at doing a proper job at pinching the barbs down...i accept the ticket i would have coming to me, just as i would if my seatbelt wasnt on.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

by the case

Thats what I figured.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Thats what I figured.

lol...you didnt uncover a mystery or secret about CD....im pretty open about what i use.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

im older than dirt....a regular fisherman.....near blind....pretty forgetful

but

i still put on my magnafiers and take my time to pinch barbs flat....i used to hate the setbelt law....but its instinctive now.

If i fail at doing a proper job at pinching the barbs down...i accept the ticket i would have coming to me, just as i would if my seatbelt wasnt on.

Well chubbdarter, I follow the law as well and would be pretty choked if I forgot or missed it and got a $200.00 fine.

Now if you would volunteer to pinch all my barbs all would be well. (warning-doubtful if anyone has more hooks/tackle than me)

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

lol...you didnt uncover a mystery or secret about CD....im pretty open about what i use.

No bait would be easier on the fish(save a few more).

In another thread you wanted to see scientific evidence - What about in this case?