land purchasing - pipelines on lot?! questions

[josey]

So, we are still shopping for a lot to build an acreage. The choice is very limited where we want to buy. There is one parcel we really like (10 ac) but it has two pipelines (parallel) running straight through the middle. Diagonally!
They are LVP (one discontinued, one operating) and fairly big. They told us the right of way is 4ft but with the controlled area (100ft each side) around we would lose a strip of land over 200ft wide. You can not permanently build on this area (fence, corrals etc. would be ok though).

So my questions would be:

Would you be concerned by pipelines running through your lot? We were thinking contamination of soil/water... Possibility of O&G coming in to dig etc.

Would that reduce (resell) value of property? There are not many pipelines (if any!) in our area so we are kind of hesitating ...

There is also a mystery site (as we call it) behind the lot. It looks like a huge (dried up?) lake/pond with a pump, there is an access gate with gravel (?) road going to it. It's plowed in winter so we were thinking O&G but I can't find anything ERCB/AER on it. Not an gravel pit either, not official at least. Here is a pic:
http://tinypic.com/r/168ctwh/8
Any idea what that might be?

[Sundancefisher]

Any pics from the ground level?

Do you have access to the surface PLA file? Some times landowners get companies to dig them a water storage pond or dugout.

If the pit is right along the pipeline ROW I would say someone forgot to finish cleanup.

The lease should discuss gravel etc as gravel is owned by the surface owner.

As for resale the property value is based upon existing conditions. As it is there now... Value will not change later.

[Rancid Crabtree]

As sun mentioned it already has impacted property value. Be sure not to over pay because the restrictions do have significant impact on future uses.

Also keep in mind in the event of a leak or contamination being found the oil company is responsible to clean up but it will complicate your life big time. For example your property would be basically unsellable until the cleanup is done and inspected which can take years.
I have lots of oil and gas on my land but not too close to the yard.

[Don Andersen]

The "pit" should be describes within the sale documents.
Failing that, ask the sales person what it is and if he has no knowledge, get spooked. Who know what the pit might have been used for.

Regards,


Don

[sewerrat]

What kind of pipelines?, oil, gas, water, sewer?

[BeeGuy]

I'd pass.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I'd pass.

x2

if they just ran through the corner id consider it, but being diagonally across the whole property id pass.

[Sushi]

reportable spills (typically anything over 2 cubic meters) are on the AER spill/complaint database. You can access this using Abadata. You will need to set yourself up a free temporary guest account (Abadata is a private business that has put the AER database on GIS and they kindly let you have short duration, free access). Use the search feature to look up the land parcel you are interested in (you can enter the LSD or use the map tool). Look for anything on or nearby the land parcel. It will show all pipelines, reported spills/complaints, etc.

http://abadata.ca/trial/

[josey]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Any pics from the ground level?

Do you have access to the surface PLA file? Some times landowners get companies to dig them a water storage pond or dugout.

If the pit is right along the pipeline ROW I would say someone forgot to finish cleanup.

The lease should discuss gravel etc as gravel is owned by the surface owner.

As for resale the property value is based upon existing conditions. As it is there now... Value will not change later.

It's in the field behind the lot not on the lot we are looking at. Though it's fairly close to the property border. The pipeline is from the 50s. I don't think it's related to it.

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

The "pit" should be describes within the sale documents.
Failing that, ask the sales person what it is and if he has no knowledge, get spooked. Who know what the pit might have been used for.

Regards,


Don

It's not on the lot we are interested in. Not sure if bordering property owners have to answer questions. We don't even know who owns the field.

Originally Posted by sewerrat

What kind of pipelines?, oil, gas, water, sewer?

LVP
(low vapour pressure)/crude oil and condensate

Originally Posted by Sushi

reportable spills (typically anything over 2 cubic meters) are on the AER spill/complaint database. You can access this using Abadata. You will need to set yourself up a free temporary guest account (Abadata is a private business that has put the AER database on GIS and they kindly let you have short duration, free access). Use the search feature to look up the land parcel you are interested in (you can enter the LSD or use the map tool). Look for anything on or nearby the land parcel. It will show all pipelines, reported spills/complaints, etc.

http://abadata.ca/trial/

That's what I used to research :-) Great tool! No spills or complaints in the area.

[oilngas]

If the pipe line is from the 50's (how do you know this??) as I believe you indicate a coupa scenarios; Maybe the upstream wells are abandoned and therefore no issues, or maybe it transported sour crude and that may be a problem etc. Lots of different things, as mentioned what were they licensed to carry??

so basically you need to be better informed to make a decision. Would your real estate agent not have done the research?? You need an oil n gas pipeline data system to investigate the pipelines and wells to get a idea of what is really happening. Most Engineering Cos, Oil n Gas Surveyors should have access to that Commercial data base, I wold think your real property report should have more data than what you have indicated.;

[Red Bullets]

I wouldn't touch any land with pipelines or oil leases. Some leases are 99 year leases and will eventually become a concern of some sort, either line maintenence or legal contracts.

In alberta, one quarter section of every section is Hudson Bay or CPR land and cannot be developed for oil or gas. I believe it is the NE quarter of the section.
Could be a consideration when looking for 'clean' land.

Also, if you buy an acreage with more than 5 acres and develop it and if you ever go to sell the property, the property will be taxed on every acre over 5 acres.
You are better off buying 80 acres or more. Then you can be taxed as a farm. Land can be rented out. The pricee of 80 acres is comparable to 10 acre acreage prices in some areas. When I was looking recently in an area, 10 acres was 140-150K and 80 acres were 130 to 140K.

[Rancid Crabtree]

[QUOTE=Red Bullets;2325103]

In alberta, one quarter section of every section is Hudson Bay or CPR land and cannot be developed for oil or gas. I believe it is the NE quarter of the section.
Could be a consideration when looking for 'clean' land.


Ummm No.
I own several sections that have oil and gas development on all 4 quarters.

[josey]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

You are better off buying 80 acres or more. Then you can be taxed as a farm. Land can be rented out. The pricee of 80 acres is comparable to 10 acre acreage prices in some areas. When I was looking recently in an area, 10 acres was 140-150K and 80 acres were 130 to 140K.

Not here unfortunately. Per acre, yes it's cheaper but not per lot. Otherwise I would buy more. Can never have too much land!

Originally Posted by Rancid Crabtree

Ummm No.
I own several sections that have oil and gas development on all 4 quarters.

Too bad!

[Sundancefisher]

Pipelines from the 50's could raise concerns. Who owns the pipeline?

[Red Bullets]

[QUOTE=Rancid Crabtree;2325131]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

In alberta, one quarter section of every section is Hudson Bay or CPR land and cannot be developed for oil or gas. I believe it is the NE quarter of the section.
Could be a consideration when looking for 'clean' land.


Ummm No.
I own several sections that have oil and gas development on all 4 quarters.

I stand corrected. I know this is true in certain areas because our land cannot be developed for oil/gas, but the neighboring quarter has development. Ours was originally CPR land and is in Leduc county.

This recently refers a bit to railway land and rights in Alberta.

http://landownerlaw.blogspot.ca/2012...favour-of.html

I did some research on the topic and it looks like land was transfered to different railway companies and part of the deal is so much land in each township that a railway might go through in the fertile belt. http://<br /> <br /> http://railwa.../Chapters-2-2/

We have a railway bordering the land. So this might explain my mis- information. Thanks for the heads up. I try to be accurate in my information.

[Sushi]

Some pipes from the 50's are in excellent condition...age is one of many factors for pipeline integrity.

[josey]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Pipelines from the 50's could raise concerns. Who owns the pipeline?

Plains

[Red Bullets]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Pipelines from the 50's could raise concerns. Who owns the pipeline?

Ownership can be traced back to original pipeline owners of abandoned pipelines and subsequent buyers of active pipe line. A land agent can dig up this information on a property.

Map of active pipelines in alberta

http://www.energy.alberta.ca/Oil/pdf...elines_Map.pdf

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by oilngas

If the pipe line is from the 50's (how do you know this??)

This can be determined through the PLA # associated with the line.

[AbAngler]

We have a few going through our land. No problems other then I can't build on them, or move heavy equipment over one of them. It is from the late 60s. Yes, buy 80+ acres if you can. Way better tax implications.

[damowers]

If your looking to fianance, I have heard some banks will not because pipeline is considered "abandoned" therefore not maintained, risk of contamaination = costly to cleanup!

[josey]

I looked up the pipelines again and the active one is from the 90s.

Originally Posted by damowers

If your looking to fianance, I have heard some banks will not because pipeline is considered "abandoned" therefore not maintained, risk of contamaination = costly to cleanup!

Not true. O&G company is on the hook forever. That's why everybody tries to be "2nd last owner".

[joeya]

Would be interested to hear more about the pipeline and regulator. You mentioned that 100 feet on either side cannot be built on. The 100 foot safety zone is an National Energy Board thing, not an AER. The NEB safety zone is put into place so that anyone doing work (development or otherwise) within 100 feet of the pipeline is required to get the proper permits from the pipeline operator, in most cases, development within 100 feet of the pipeline would be approved, assuming there was no risk to the pipeline. In alberta, it is common to allow development up to the right of way boundaries. One thing to consider here is to speak with the local municipality, sometimes they have additional setback over and above the AER/NEB.


Edit, I see the operator is Plains, they have both NEB & AER regulated pipelines.

Joey

[josey]

So you mean less than 100ft or even more?

[DarkAisling]

Can you PM me the legal land description of the lot you're looking at (from the LSD on)? I want to see if I've got any dispositions or data on that pit.

Honestly, I don't like the sound of where those pipelines are running. I think you'll lose the use of too much land on a parcel that size.