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  #91  
Old 09-13-2017, 05:39 PM
hammerhunter hammerhunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sillyak View Post
Honest question. Why is an area's lifespan only 30 years? Is it structurally unsafe? It has seats and an ice surface, what's wrong with it?
The Flames could play in the Dome for another 30 years but the owners have options to move to other locations and may in fact do just that.

If they move it would not take too long for another group to start working on bringing another franchise back in! Winnipeg did it...Minnesota did it etc. etc.

Why was there no uproar on a $250MM library or a $200MM music centre?
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  #92  
Old 09-13-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
I'd be all for the city paying 100%mof the building costs. Let the flames play their little games for a nominal fee like um a dollar a game. Keep the ticket sales, beer sales and concessions for the owner (taxpayers) ...the team can have the TV rights.
Agree 100%

If taxpayer pay for it they should own and control it

Edmonton is a joke but one crooked mayor, one dim witted premier and one owner who made most of his money selling Canadian subsidised drugs to US seniors online managed to boondoggle a city into paying for and then handing the keys over to Katz.

Funny that the former Mayors wife owned a large piece of land that the Ice district is in. and profited from directly the arena deal. Hmmm

The Ice district is a bit of smoke and mirrors too. everybody talks about how the arena revitalized the district but what is not showing is how all the office space is all but destroying the oversaturated office market in Edmonton.

Residences have killed several other projects that were planned for downtown and city seems to support riding this one pony.

Several businesses have closed recently in the district because the area is only busy during events and is a ghost town the rest of the time. The exaggerated rents don't equate to profitability for them.

The Edmonton tower is full of building issues but Iveson cant say anything because the city hopped right into bed with the ONE group and the Stantec tower is going right down the same path.

I was never a big fan of the arena but could have understood if the city had at least had owned it but who builds an arena, negotiates a non compete clause so that Northlands or any other city managed venue can not hold events unless katz passes on the opportunity and lets him profit from all revenue streams and pays no property taxes.

Hell of a deal if you can get it

I know nothing about the Calgary mayor but I at least give him credit for not selling the farm for some magic beans
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  #93  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:35 PM
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maybe the owners are getting long in the tooth and want to sell out anyway. The easy way to sell out would be to a rich guy in the states.
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  #94  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jadham View Post
Well they have discussed a few different sites and plans. The Herald stated the more expensive proposal was $1 800 000 000.

Probably most people "don't plain hate", they just don't care/ambivalent.
I'd have to disagree that most Calgarians 'just don't care'. That would be an assumption. Why would anyone not want to live in a city that has pro sports teams or exceptional facility's? Pretty good indicator that you've picked a pretty good place to live? Those owners, contrary to what you read on this thread are no dummies, they invest here for a reason, and it's not because most people don't care in Calgary. It's because people want to live here, but start losing the things that people enjoy and you know where that takes your city. As a matter of fact many people I have spoken with claim that's why they chose to live here. I'd still like to see how much of an actual tax increase it would be. People talk on here about they shouldn't have to pay taxes for this or that, I have to pay taxes for a pile of s--- that I will never use or take advantage of , but many other people will, same as the new facility. You may never use it, but many will. ,
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  #95  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by diamond k View Post
Agree 100%


I know nothing about the Calgary mayor but I at least give him credit for not selling the farm for some magic beans

He is selling the farm under a different guise... This arena will go ahead, Nenshi is pandering for votes and using this to his 100% advantage. He is a clown and a user.. No need for him in this city.
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  #96  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:04 PM
Jadham Jadham is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elk396 View Post
I'd have to disagree that most Calgarians 'just don't care'. That would be an assumption. Why would anyone not want to live in a city that has pro sports teams or exceptional facility's? Pretty good indicator that you've picked a pretty good place to live? Those owners, contrary to what you read on this thread are no dummies, they invest here for a reason, and it's not because most people don't care in Calgary. It's because people want to live here, but start losing the things that people enjoy and you know where that takes your city. As a matter of fact many people I have spoken with claim that's why they chose to live here. I'd still like to see how much of an actual tax increase it would be. People talk on here about they shouldn't have to pay taxes for this or that, I have to pay taxes for a pile of s--- that I will never use or take advantage of , but many other people will, same as the new facility. You may never use it, but many will. ,
I haven't seen any "polls" on how the citizens of Calgary feel, but your position that most Calgarians "care" or really "care enough" to have the city pay for it is also an assumption. Where I work, there are some fans, but also many who don't follow hockey. I also have a couple friends that have given up their season tickets and don't bother any more.

For AO at least, it doesn't appear to me the majority think it should be paid for by the city.

How people think their tax dollars should be spent depends on the individual. I personally prefer more spending on amateur sports, not professional. I personally think that if the city pays for a reasonable portion of the arena they should be entitled to a portion of the revenue stream from the Flames.

But I certainly agree that the owners are not dummies.
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  #97  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
He is selling the farm under a different guise... This arena will go ahead, Nenshi is pandering for votes and using this to his 100% advantage. He is a clown and a user.. No need for him in this city.
x2...For example changed the policy a few weeks ago on art projects for the city and never said a word about it for how many years now? Vote Nenshi out in October....I have had enough of this Mayor and most of the councilours in this city....We need change now and has to be done in October
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  #98  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:23 PM
elk396 elk396 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Jadham View Post
I haven't seen any "polls" on how the citizens of Calgary feel, but your position that most Calgarians "care" or really "care enough" to have the city pay for it is also an assumption. Where I work, there are some fans, but also many who don't follow hockey. I also have a couple friends that have given up their season tickets and don't bother any more.

For AO at least, it doesn't appear to me the majority think it should be paid for by the city.

How people think their tax dollars should be spent depends on the individual. I personally prefer more spending on amateur sports, not professional. I personally think that if the city pays for a reasonable portion of the arena they should be entitled to a portion of the revenue stream from the Flames.

But I certainly agree that the owners are not dummies.

I guess for me if I could see some numbers on how big of a tax hit it would be to each Calgarian, that would clear up a lot of assumptions. It might also shut me up too, because if it's significant, I might just switch my position. But I do like the Flames and hope we don't lose them however it works out in the end. Ill try dig that info up and post it.
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  #99  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by elk396 View Post
I guess for me if I could see some numbers on how big of a tax hit it would be to each Calgarian, that would clear up a lot of assumptions. It might also shut me up too, because if it's significant, I might just switch my position. But I do like the Flames and hope we don't lose them however it works out in the end. Ill try dig that info up and post it.
It the taxpayers are on the hook for some of the cost, I too would like to see some numbers.....Is it a couple of bucks or 50 bucks is the question
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  #100  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:54 PM
happy honker happy honker is online now
 
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Less opportunities for arena owners to generate revenue
Not enough corporate suites, LED displays, VIP lounges etc to generate additional cash flow.

That's the problem with aging buildings.
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  #101  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Suzukisam View Post
Arena's are like new cars. The smell wears off after 6months and your neighbour will have next years model in his driveway in 9 months.
Doesn't look like Edmonton's neighbor is getting their new model in 9 months.

Smell still hasn't worn off up here either and we are enjoying the cash Calgarians are bringing to the city coffers when they come up hwy 2 to see the "big" entertainment Rogers brings in.

Last edited by 270person; 09-13-2017 at 10:01 PM.
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  #102  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:42 PM
Mackinaw Mackinaw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
Doesn't look like Edmonton's neighbor is getting their new model anytime soon tho.

Smell still hasn't worn off up here either and we are enjoying the cash Calgarians are bringing to the city coffers when they come up hwy 2 to see the "big" entertainment Rogers brings in.
you are right the smell has not worn off the deal still stinks as bad as it always did and always will.

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  #103  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
you are right the smell has not worn off the deal still stinks as bad as it always did and always will.

mack

I think it's awesome. Edmonton needed a big refresh downtown and they got it.

Brings a lot of money into the city that benefits a lot of people. Thankfully Mandel wasn't a sit on his hands do nothing like his predecessors.

Plus all the old baba Edmontonians and their spokesperson Paula Simons that whined like stuck pigs every time their taxes went up a nickel and kept the city in the dark ages have finally been put in their places.

Sports teams bring a lot more money into a community than art galleries, stupid chrome beachball monuments, and every other special interest groups pet projects that only a select few elitists utilize.

Now if we can fire up toll roads coming into Edmonton from St Albert, Spruce Grove/Stony Plain, Leduc, Beaumont, Sherwood Park and Ft Sask we'd be laughing. Time to pound those tax dodgers where it hurts.

Last edited by 270person; 09-13-2017 at 10:28 PM.
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  #104  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:19 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elk396 View Post
I guess for me if I could see some numbers on how big of a tax hit it would be to each Calgarian, that would clear up a lot of assumptions. It might also shut me up too, because if it's significant, I might just switch my position. But I do like the Flames and hope we don't lose them however it works out in the end. Ill try dig that info up and post it.
http://www.660news.com/2017/09/12/sh...-city-calgary/

Looks like the Flames put the cost at $500 million, the city expects it to be a bit higher than that. They report the Edmonton arena cost $614 million so somewhere between 500 and 600 is a reasonable assumption for discussion.
The fact that the Flames wanted the building to be tax free going forward is a bigger concern to me than the up front costs.
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  #105  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
I think it's awesome. Edmonton needed a big refresh downtown and they got it.

Brings a lot of money into the city that benefits a lot of people. Thankfully Mandel wasn't a sit on his hands do nothing like his predecessors.

Plus all the old baba Edmontonians and their spokesperson Paula Simons that whined like stuck pigs every time their taxes went up a nickel and kept the city in the dark ages have finally been put in their places.

Sports teams bring a lot more money into a community than art galleries, stupid chrome beachball monuments, and every other special interest groups pet projects that only a select few elitists utilize.

Now if we can fire up toll roads between Edmonton and St Albert, Spruce Grove/Stony Plain, Leduc, Beaumont, Sherwood Park and Ft Sask we'd be laughing. Time to pound those tax dodgers where it hurts.
Agree.
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  #106  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:48 AM
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58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
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Ya gotta spend money to make money, look at all the bs surrounding Edmonton, then the arena was pushed into full go, then a franchise player showed up and the city went about its business with ear to ear smiles...same will happen in cowtown....right now it's posturing and an election year so players are going to play...one thing you know for sure the NHL is not going to take any crap.
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  #107  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:52 AM
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ORV ORV is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bobinthesky View Post
Well, it's over 30 years old anyway..... it was built in 1983...
Actually it was built in 1960
maybe you are thinking of commonwealth which was expanded
in 1983?
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  #108  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:25 AM
bobinthesky bobinthesky is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ORV View Post
Actually it was built in 1960
maybe you are thinking of commonwealth which was expanded
in 1983?


The Saddledome opened on October 15, 1983. Does anyone know how to use google anymore?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotiabank_Saddledome
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  #109  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:25 AM
Mackinaw Mackinaw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
I think it's awesome. Edmonton needed a big refresh downtown and they got it.

Brings a lot of money into the city that benefits a lot of people. Thankfully Mandel wasn't a sit on his hands do nothing like his predecessors.

Plus all the old baba Edmontonians and their spokesperson Paula Simons that whined like stuck pigs every time their taxes went up a nickel and kept the city in the dark ages have finally been put in their places.

Sports teams bring a lot more money into a community than art galleries, stupid chrome beachball monuments, and every other special interest groups pet projects that only a select few elitists utilize.

Now if we can fire up toll roads coming into Edmonton from St Albert, Spruce Grove/Stony Plain, Leduc, Beaumont, Sherwood Park and Ft Sask we'd be laughing. Time to pound those tax dodgers where it hurts.
Mandel could not sit on his hands they were always in the tax payers pockets.


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  #110  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobinthesky View Post
The Saddledome opened on October 15, 1983. Does anyone know how to use google anymore?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotiabank_Saddledome
I believe they were discussing Mcmahon stadium....
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  #111  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinhits View Post
I believe they were discussing Mcmahon stadium....
that is correct! not the saddledome

thanks for paying attention. lol
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  #112  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
I think it's awesome. Edmonton needed a big refresh downtown and they got it.

Brings a lot of money into the city that benefits a lot of people.

Funny how the hockey fans, only see the money coming in and never the money going out or the money being pulled from every taxpayer that reduces their spending elsewhere......AS LONG AS IT goes to their temple of prayer and their idiols, and supports their entertainment...then its a simple thing to keep the blinders on and not be honest in the true costs.

Thankfully Mandel wasn't a sit on his hands do nothing like his predecessors.
No he wasn't. He was on his knees...bought and paid for.

Plus all the old baba Edmontonians and their spokesperson Paula Simons that whined like stuck pigs every time their taxes went up a nickel and kept the city in the dark ages have finally been put in their places.

Sports teams bring a lot more money into a community than art galleries, stupid chrome beachball monuments, and every other special interest groups pet projects that only a select few elitists utilize.

Now if we can fire up toll roads coming into Edmonton from St Albert, Spruce Grove/Stony Plain, Leduc, Beaumont, Sherwood Park and Ft Sask we'd be laughing. Time to pound those tax dodgers where it hurts.
You know its funny.....you want people to come into Edmonton to spend money at the arena and other businesses, but at the same time you want a toll road to punish those that would come into Edmonton to spend it.

You want businesses to set up in Edmonton core, but want to punish those that might work there from the suburbs. This is why the office and business vacancy rates are increasing downtown. You want to revitalize the downtown core but also want to extort for the limited parking spaces, but some how think that that is enticing. You want to plop an arena in an already cart-trail designed downtown core road system, further congesting traffic and then wonder why no one wants to shop there.

This whole "revitalize/shop downtown core" whine fest has been going on for 30 years. Nothing has really changed to address the real issues. Slapping some bricks down on the road with some concrete planters and some how thinking that will get them flocking in.

The rebuttal....usually take the transit......yep that nightmare of engineering genius that still can't get lights working correctly and OF COURSE....slap it across some of the worst intersections in the city.....and make sure you put it in the middle of the road for added complexity and problems.

Toll roads......what I think of those that keep proposing this idea (because they can't manage their tax budgets without wasting it on hockey arenas for billionaires).....I cant say on here. Hey if the arena is SUCH A GREAT economic engine and job creator and tax benefit, you shouldn't have any problems with funding infrastructure. BUT ITS NOT!!!! And hence the desperate clawing at the pennies in the gutter without seeing the steamroller coming.
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  #113  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:39 AM
bobinthesky bobinthesky is offline
 
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Oh, then I apologize!

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  #114  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mlami991 View Post
I think we all forget these "selfish billionaire owners" contribute tons of money to the city of Calgary. Calgary hospitals have some of the best wards in the WORLD due to funding from current and former Flames philanthropists/owners. I guarantee we all know someone that has benefited from this.

Their golf tournament just raised over 300K for the Calgary flames foundation which helps "support health and wellness, education, and amateur and grassroots sports."

Many of these owners have chosen to live and call Calgary there home and they pay more taxes in a year than most people make in a year.
The owners made their money off OIL not off the Flames! I am sure they would have donated regardless. But I would rather donate my taxes to a hospital than rich people any day of the week!

Just because the Flames foundation raised 300K does not mean the players nor owners donated any of that money. That money would have been donated to various charities regardless if Flames existed or not.

I do not believe one bit that the owners are paying more taxes to the city of Calgary than most people make. Regardless it isn't owning the Flames that keep them in the city.
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  #115  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:37 AM
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Interesting article in the news today...

Article: Economists see little payoff for cities that subsidize pro sports facilities

Quote:
Some proponents of giving land, loans or direct subsidies to professional sports projects say the investment is repaid in economic benefits for the city but economists say numerous studies have shown that's not the case.

"Overall, the research is pretty clear that there aren't aggregate benefits of such subsidies for the city as a whole," said Trevor Tombe, associate professor of economics at the University of Calgary.

University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe says public subsidies for professional teams usually only benefit political careers of city politicians. (CBC)

"What they really end up doing is shifting activities across sectors and across locations."

Tombe said public subsidies for professional teams usually only benefit political careers of city politicians: "Cynically, I would phrase it as it provides a very good photo op."
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  #116  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:56 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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As far as economics go I think the only real net benefit is how many out of town folks/$'s the facility brings in. I suspect that contingent makes up <10% of any given event crowd. I base that on the belief that people budget a certain amount for entertainment and such no matter what. If there is hockey they may choose to spend it at the arena and immediate area but if not they will just spend it somewhere else in the city. So the only real net benefit to the city overall comes from out of town folks bringing in fresh money that wouldn't have come otherwise. Certainly the city is losing some business in the form of certain concerts and the migration of limited entertainment dollars there but I suspect those numbers would pale in comparison to the proposed spend.

RE in the immediate area is the same thing. If the place goes up then RE in the area goes up but ultimately that comes at the cost of somewhere else. If arena don't get built then that money just finds another home elsewhere in the city. People gonna spend for a home no matter what. Where doesn't particularly matter to the bottom line.
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  #117  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:46 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BlackHeart View Post
You know its funny.....you want people to come into Edmonton to spend money at the arena and other businesses, but at the same time you want a toll road to punish those that would come into Edmonton to spend it

This whole "revitalize/shop downtown core" whine fest has been going on for 30 years. Nothing has really changed to address the real issues. Slapping some bricks down on the road with some concrete planters and some how thinking that will get them flocking in.

Toll roads......what I think of those that keep proposing this idea (because they can't manage their tax budgets without wasting it on hockey arenas for billionaires).....I cant say on here. Hey if the arena is SUCH A GREAT economic engine and job creator and tax benefit, you shouldn't have any problems with funding infrastructure. BUT ITS NOT!!!! And hence the desperate clawing at the pennies in the gutter without seeing the steamroller coming.
Yep. If you earn your coin here you should pay a toll to get here and since you don't pay taxes on this new arena you should pay a toll to use that too. You want the benefits of having a big city nearby then you should pay to use those benefits. Arenas aren't the only reason you come to town either so don't get stuck on one point.

Arenas beat the heck out of art galleries, Winspears, Mutarts, etc that definitely appeal only to the rich or the entitled. They give ZERO back to the economy. In fact they're a drain.

The planters might not influence things much but the new arena and surrounding ice district sure will as indicated by the sell rate of all the new high-rise condos that are going up. Theres a large demographic that prefers to live where the action is as opposed to the burbs. AND they pay taxes.

Don't come to the arena, ride the lrt, or drive in Edm traffic dude. Stay in your perfect little burbs and utilize your own facilities. Pretty simple and all your choice.

Treat Edm as a Pay to Play destination.

Now throw that Toonie into the toll slot k?

Last edited by 270person; 09-14-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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  #118  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:12 AM
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The Fisherman Guy The Fisherman Guy is offline
 
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The writing is on the wall, and it doesn't say that the Flames are leaving - quite the opposite actually. This demonstration by the Calgary Flames supports and brings awareness to the City of Calgary and their negotiation tactics.

If you care to go into detail, you will find this is not a new problem. The Millennium Park debacle is a good place to start. The City will force their hand every. single. time. Then celebrate the result as a benefit for citizens, when in fact, it is just the opposite.

Plain and simple folks - within the City Council, resides several councillors who's tenure exceeds ten years in on City Council. Looking back, many of the contentious issues that have divided Calgarians, these aforementioned councillors were right in the middle of.

The Flames will not leave YYC. Ken King isn't the monster here.

However, the water is getting hotter for Nenshi and Council. Citizens are becoming increasingly aware that they are being fed what the government believes is best for Calgary and it's citizens - not acting as the voice of the citizens.

You can thank Ken King, Contemporary Calgary and Uber for highlighting this failure, dig a little deeper and the mud only gets thicker.

Just in time for an election.
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  #119  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by The Fisherman Guy View Post
The writing is on the wall, and it doesn't say that the Flames are leaving - quite the opposite actually. This demonstration by the Calgary Flames supports and brings awareness to the City of Calgary and their negotiation tactics.

If you care to go into detail, you will find this is not a new problem. The Millennium Park debacle is a good place to start. The City will force their hand every. single. time. Then celebrate the result as a benefit for citizens, when in fact, it is just the opposite.

Plain and simple folks - within the City Council, resides several councillors who's tenure exceeds ten years in on City Council. Looking back, many of the contentious issues that have divided Calgarians, these aforementioned councillors were right in the middle of.

The Flames will not leave YYC. Ken King isn't the monster here.

However, the water is getting hotter for Nenshi and Council. Citizens are becoming increasingly aware that they are being fed what the government believes is best for Calgary and it's citizens - not acting as the voice of the citizens.

You can thank Ken King, Contemporary Calgary and Uber for highlighting this failure, dig a little deeper and the mud only gets thicker.

Just in time for an election.
Agree 99%

The one percent of my disagreement with you is the Citizens are not as aware as they should be. The upcoming election has me worried severly.
I dont trust the average joe is going to care and will follow through with the expected apathy and vote for the encumbent.

MAC
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  #120  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:06 AM
rembo rembo is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
Arenas beat the heck out of art galleries, Winspears, Muttarts, etc that definitely appeal only to the rich or the entitled. They give ZERO back to the economy. In fact they're a drain.
Last time I went to the Art Gallery it was free but that's a few years ago. "rich or entitled"?.....you could probably see every art gallery and museum in Edmonton twice and even throw in Fort Edmonton for less than the price of one NHL game.

I'd rather see kids at an art gallery or a museum than grow up worshiping over paid adolescents chase a chunk of rubber around making rich guys richer.

Professional hockey doesn't contribute much to society and keeps young kids all starry eyed dreaming of playing in the NHL while 99.999% of then never will. Maybe if we didn't give out awards for playing and only gave them out for winning....
I've always thought it rather curious when I hear 8 year olds referring to professional sports players as "heroes".....the aren't any heroes in Pro sports.

No tax money should go to arenas for rich guys...period.


Last edited by rembo; 09-15-2017 at 11:18 AM.
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