Oil Spill in Jackson Creek - Tributary of RDR

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by hal53

just sayin', different stories from the folks interviewed that " I heard" than the media and others are reporting.....

we all know the media and greenies would never blow anything out of proportion, right???

And the oil companies would never, ever in a million years lie, right???

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

And the oil companies would never, ever in a million years lie, right???

...or the endless line of people looking for compensation right????....we have to find a balance here, Alberta is a resource rich province, those resources have to be transferred around the country, the lines that do this , some have been in the ground a long time, they are constantly checked for integrity new technology ( smart pigs and such) are helping, but there will always be issues. The point I'm making is we have to work together, and get rid of that BS about Oil Co's. lying etc. from someone who has no idea what's going on, but sadly somebody showed him how to run a computer

[fajita123]

Originally Posted by hal53

This is the one timeI will agree with one of your posts, but working "together" means just that, not ranting and whining about things, stop, slow down, figure out what happened and make sure it doesn't happen again. Knowledge is strength....running for Lawyers and compensation doesn't help the situation. I as well am having trouble with the rumors reported that it was a "dead" line, and still leaked the numbers they're talking about?, lotsa speculation going on....

As I posted in the other thread, I believe it was still an active pipeline, just not flowing at the time of the leak (i.e. it was not in suspended or inactive status).

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by hal53

...or the endless line of people looking for compensation right????....we have to find a balance here, Alberta is a resource rich province, those resources have to be transferred around the country, the lines that do this , some have been in the ground a long time, they are constantly checked for integrity new technology ( smart pigs and such) are helping, but there will always be issues. The point I'm making is we have to work together, and get rid of that BS about Oil Co's. lying etc. from someone who has no idea what's going on, but sadly somebody showed him how to run a computer

Is that your job, to tell us all what's going on? If you really believe that oil Co. always tell us the truth I got some swamp, errr prime land you might want to purchase. And why always with the insults, if you want to make a point, insults are counterproductive.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Is that your job, to tell us all what's going on? If you really believe that oil Co. always tell us the truth I got some swamp, errr prime land you might want to purchase. And why always with the insults, if you want to make a point, insults are counterproductive.

everything you have said about this is "fact"...????...first hand knowledge????, or just regurgitating what you have heard???. My only point is, it's going to happen, we ALL have to figure out how to minimize the problems, if you think I insulted you, I apologize, that was not my intent. I have dealt with this kind of stuff for many years....and believe me as much as some people would like to think the Co's are allowed to cover up details...they definitely are not, usually , it's not even them handing the info to the media, it's the ERCB.....

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by hal53

everything you have said about this is "fact"...????...first hand knowledge????, or just regurgitating what you have heard???. My only point is, it's going to happen, we ALL have to figure out how to minimize the problems, if you think I insulted you, I apologize, that was not my intent. I have dealt with this kind of stuff for many years....and believe me as much as some people would like to think the Co's are allowed to cover up details...they definitely are not, usually , it's not even them handing the info to the media, it's the ERCB.....

I can't remember saying anything about this, although I may be proven wrong, i have a bit of a memory issue. I know it will happen, has to, nothing has ever been built that is not at some point going to fail. I guess where we differ is that you believe the Co.s would not lie and have the publics interest at heart. I believe they are ruled as are all Co.s by the bottom dollar, I also believe the best way to get them to do the best they can, is when an incident like this happens is to hold their feet to the fire, hard. Where you view the "greenies" as the enemy, I view them as a necessary component to keep the Gov. and Oil Co. honest.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I can't remember saying anything about this, although I may be proven wrong, i have a bit of a memory issue. I know it will happen, has to, nothing has ever been built that is not at some point going to fail. I guess where we differ is that you believe the Co.s would not lie and have the publics interest at heart. I believe they are ruled as are all Co.s by the bottom dollar, I also believe the best way to get them to do the best they can, is when an incident like this happens is to hold their feet to the fire, hard. Where you view the "greenies" as the enemy, I view them as a necessary component to keep the Gov. and Oil Co. honest.

seesh!!!...sounds a lot like "balance" is what you're proposing???...good idea!!!!!...how long have you worked in the patch???

[fish gunner]

so when these "minor" incidents increase in the future and every water shed in alberta is dead. do you feel the oil companies will pay to have fresh water routed to alberta. I feel detroit is a fine example of corporate loyalties in regard to what we can expect. a dead province, polluted, broke and empty. never happen eh !

[hal53]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

so when these "minor" incidents increase in the future and every water shed in alberta is dead. do you feel the oil companies will pay to have fresh water routed to alberta. I feel detroit is a fine example of corporate loyalties in regard to what we can expect. a dead province, polluted, broke and empty. never happen eh !

so...what would you propose????...how to we deal with it????

[fish gunner]

answer with a question? my thoughts, a one strike rule . have a leak or a water shed contamination that field is done shut her down. another idea when a pipe line reaches a specific age ie twenty yrs dig it up replace the whole shebang .make the oil industry responsible in a off limits fashion you f it up your done. place tariffs on pipe lines running near water sheds that ensure if there is ever a leak the costs (financially ) are covered. from my point of veiw one fish in that river is worth more than any wages I ever made in the patch. hay im just a carpenter what do I know aren't you the oil guy who told us these issues are of little concern, engineers take care of this stuff, then my man murphy kiked them in the nads. again...

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by hal53

so...what would you propose????...how to we deal with it????

Pipelines are like many other things that are "built", they have a life expectancy of only so many years. Like other things that are built companies realize this and have a replacement or upgrading system in place, replacing/upgrading lines BEFORE they fail, especially older ones, or those that are in close proximety to areas where a failure would cause the most damage.
This is no new idea as I am sure oil companies do this already, however I am also sure that there is a cost/benefit analysis done to determine how much replacement or upgrading costs vs how much a cleanup costs.
Their is technology out there that I read about years ago where new liners are inserted into old pipe, so there is "something" that can be done beside just saying "oh well, things will happen". Once again though it comes to what does the cost/benefit analysis say.
I don't think that anyone will argue that we all need oil/gas, it is a very valuable resource......but we can not continue to sacrifice an even more valuable resource (water) for it.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Pipelines are like many other things that are "built", they have a life expectancy of only so many years. Like other things that are built companies realize this and have a replacement or upgrading system in place, replacing/upgrading lines BEFORE they fail, especially older ones, or those that are in close proximety to areas where a failure would cause the most damage.
This is no new idea as I am sure oil companies do this already, however I am also sure that there is a cost/benefit analysis done to determine how much replacement or upgrading costs vs how much a cleanup costs.
Their is technology out there that I read about years ago where new liners are inserted into old pipe, so there is "something" that can be done beside just saying "oh well, things will happen". Once again though it comes to what does the cost/benefit analysis say.
I don't think that anyone will argue that we all need oil/gas, it is a very valuable resource......but we can not continue to sacrifice an even more valuable resource (water) for it.

What you say is bang on, the trick is to make the price of messing up so high, the Co. will always err on the side of to much PM and not on the side of let it ride. As has been noted water is by far our most precious resource, might not be the money making one but if you don't have water you got nothing. In my vision of AB. not everything is for sale.

[KCL]

New pipelines can leak too.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by avb3

My comment about the usual suspects was made somewhat tongue in cheek, because they are so adamant about defending oil companies, but when there is a problem, they disappear.
.

Not sure where you are trying to go with this. When something wrong happens there are consequences...big consequences on an environmental perspective. Someone asking if it was left leaking and nothing done...ummm...that would be a jail sentence for Executives in Alberta so...ummm..highly doubtful. If it did happen all the pro oil guys would help lock the jail door. When these bad things happen...everything is done to stop it. Sometimes mother nature does not help.

In any industry...there will be the odd problem. Oil companies must have an action plan in place and react properly or else...big fines and justly so.

Sooo...for all the oil haters than only come out when the odd problem amongst millions and millions of non incidents happen...so are you giving up your car because someone else in Alberta hit and killed a child or a mother or a grandmother with theirs? Are you giving up your truck because another trucker was drinking vodka and killed a family or because a truck was not repaired properly and slammed into a minivan killing a family.

Best way to justify any witch hunt anti oil syndrome is a little cod liver oil like dose of reality. If you want perfection...you will go insane trying to find it.

Making up ridiculous rules like some on this thread is ludicrous... cause the same ones will whine and cry paying $3 or $4 a litre to drive their big trucks.

Otherwise...with any industry you need protections in place...and Alberta has more than any other jurisdiction and you need mitigation plans in effect. That is what happens. Let the professionals deal with it...it is their job not ours.

Sun

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

so when these "minor" incidents increase in the future and every water shed in alberta is dead. do you feel the oil companies will pay to have fresh water routed to alberta. I feel detroit is a fine example of corporate loyalties in regard to what we can expect. a dead province, polluted, broke and empty. never happen eh !

well said

[Isopod]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

so when these "minor" incidents increase in the future and every water shed in alberta is dead. do you feel the oil companies will pay to have fresh water routed to alberta. I feel detroit is a fine example of corporate loyalties in regard to what we can expect. a dead province, polluted, broke and empty. never happen eh !

A little over-the-top dramatic, don't you think? Do you really believe that we are heading for every water shed to be dead? For a dead province, polluted broke and empty? I find it hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate things so wildly.

[pikergolf]

Otherwise...with any industry you need protections in place...and Alberta has more than any other jurisdiction and you need mitigation plans in effect. That is what happens. Let the professionals deal with it...it is their job not ours.

Sun

Just because we're doing better than anywhere else, does not mean we're doing well enough. And it's my province not the "professionals" so I'll carry on worrying about it thanks.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Isopod

A little over-the-top dramatic, don't you think? Do you really believe that we are heading for every water shed to be dead? For a dead province, polluted broke and empty? I find it hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate things so wildly.

detroit was the largest industrial complex in the free world. population 6 million most with skilled jobs in the auto industry. today you could buy the fisher building (world HQ for GM) for the cost of the land. the city is a waste land right now. glasgow scotland one time strongest shipbuilding capital of the free world. 1970 -1990 the city was also near death. you just think im exaggerating I have liveved in both those cities during their hay days. glasgow just managed thru force of will and the strength of her people to survive and flurish, detroit has not had the same luck. Alberta has six or seven medium rivers which it depends on to keep its people alive. so now we have one less. what makes you think we are special when the water is done so are we. from your position you feel some one will make it better. who?

[BeeGuy]

Love all the strongly worded support and apologists.

It'll be interesting to find out when this 45+ year old pipeline was last 'inspected'.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Love all the strongly worded support and apologists.

It'll be interesting to find out when this 45+ year old pipeline was last 'inspected'.

That is the key question. Was the monitoring and maintenance appropriate. If not they will be fined and pay the price in other ways also.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Otherwise...with any industry you need protections in place...and Alberta has more than any other jurisdiction and you need mitigation plans in effect. That is what happens. Let the professionals deal with it...it is their job not ours.

Sun

Just because we're doing better than anywhere else, does not mean we're doing well enough. And it's my province not the "professionals" so I'll carry on worrying about it thanks.

Chasing perfection is idealistic...not realistic. With better regulations than other jurisdictions, we have a better system. I understand you wanting to do better and everyone I know in this field of expertise strives to do just that. Goals for oil companies are zero incidents and people are rewarded for zero incidents. There is no one sitting on their butts ignoring a leak.

[ruttnbuckcojack]

Originally Posted by NSRfishing

what happens when you let non union scum build and operate

you might wanna watch you tongue

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Chasing perfection is idealistic...not realistic. With better regulations than other jurisdictions, we have a better system. I understand you wanting to do better and everyone I know in this field of expertise strives to do just that. Goals for oil companies are zero incidents and people are rewarded for zero incidents. There is no one sitting on their butts ignoring a leak.

so if perfection is a little out of reach we can over time expect this kind of thing to occur. no big deal really. we will be ok. BS, so if I build you a house and it falls down perfection is unrealistic right. the finish work in your house is realisticlly accurate. the seat belts in your car are mostly safe. a pilot should have a realistic safety record one or two crashes would be realistic. what a crock. thank you for giving us the real down low from the industry point of veiw.the horn will sound when every thing is all right, if the horn is sounding every thing is all right. see above empty, broke and polluted . realistically acceptable out come.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

so if perfection is a little out of reach we can over time expect this kind of thing to occur. no big deal really. we will be ok. BS, so if I build you a house and it falls down perfection is unrealistic right. the finish work in your house is realisticlly accurate. the seat belts in your car are mostly safe. a pilot should have a realistic safety record one or two crashes would be realistic. what a crock. thank you for giving us the real down low from the industry point of veiw.the horn will sound when every thing is all right, if the horn is sounding every thing is all right. see above empty, broke and polluted . realistically acceptable out come.

An analogy that would make more sense that if you build 1,000,000 homes...how many burn down or have roof leaks or the foundation sinks or cracks etc. It happens a lot...and the mitigation covers initial builders warranty followed by out of pocket expenses. Perfection definitely does not happen in home building period.

Comparing a house falling down to a pipeline...not realistic. Comparing a pilot crashing...ludicrous.

I understand for you this is an emotional issue so it is hard to debate facts and real life versus utopia but you have to face the fact that stuff happens. Farmers have accidents that kill kids. Ambulances crash into people at intersections. The manufacturing industry has deaths. People get killed with lightning on golf courses.

If you go around saying everyone has to be perfect...it needs to start in the mirror with you coming up with ways to make everything around you perfect. Work, job, neighbours, following all laws and never making any mistakes.

In fact...it is impossible because no matter how badly you want it...all people are human and prone to making a mistake now and again....including pilots and mechanics and airport security.

But you and I likely agree strongly on one thing...we all what what ever is reasonable and prudent to be done to prevent all leaks...and if it happens respond quickly, appropriately and effectively to minimize the damage and make reparations and mitigations to the affected areas afterwards.

[pickrel pat]

and right at the time when ducks, geese, and shore birds are hatching. oil and birds mix about as well as oil and water. hope this gets taken care of as fast and efficient as humanly possible!(I realise that **** happens and just hope it gets all the cleanup attention it deserves.)

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

and right at the time when ducks, geese, and shore birds are hatching. oil and birds mix about as well as oil and water. hope this gets taken care of as fast and efficient as humanly possible!(I realise that **** happens and just hope it gets all the cleanup attention it deserves.)

I'm sure it will get a LOT of attenion, due to the fact it has contaminated a moving water body, and also due to the fact that there is now so much publicity surrounding it, which is a good thing. I never heard anything about the Rainbow Lake spill that is the largest since 1975 till this spill. Media attention isn't always a bad thing

[tight line]

wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaa waaaaa waaa cry me a oil filled river. this is a fishing site, not a whining about oil companies site. bad deal all around though...

im goin fishing...

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by tight line

im goin fishing...

good....... go.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

An analogy that would make more sense that if you build 1,000,000 homes...how many burn down or have roof leaks or the foundation sinks or cracks etc. It happens a lot...and the mitigation covers initial builders warranty followed by out of pocket expenses. Perfection definitely does not happen in home building period.

Comparing a house falling down to a pipeline...not realistic. Comparing a pilot crashing...ludicrous.

I understand for you this is an emotional issue so it is hard to debate facts and real life versus utopia but you have to face the fact that stuff happens. Farmers have accidents that kill kids. Ambulances crash into people at intersections. The manufacturing industry has deaths. People get killed with lightning on golf courses.

If you go around saying everyone has to be perfect...it needs to start in the mirror with you coming up with ways to make everything around you perfect. Work, job, neighbours, following all laws and never making any mistakes.

In fact...it is impossible because no matter how badly you want it...all people are human and prone to making a mistake now and again....including pilots and mechanics and airport security.

But you and I likely agree strongly on one thing...we all what what ever is reasonable and prudent to be done to prevent all leaks...and if it happens respond quickly, appropriately and effectively to minimize the damage and make reparations and mitigations to the affected areas afterwards.

yes this is an emotional issue that is my home river, the drinking water for my community & friends come from that river. the lake is where we play in the summer. the river was on the mend from the last spill, trout were returning . I have built a hundred homes. none will fall down unless they are uncared for by the owner. ,my field of work is unlightly to cause whole scale destruction. I understand logging to provide wood for homes has in the past. I tree planted to a summer I have seen the results of poor logging practice's

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

yes this is an emotional issue that is my home river, the drinking water for my community & friends come from that river. the lake is where we play in the summer. the river was on the mend from the last spill, trout were returning . I have built a hundred homes. none will fall down unless they are uncared for by the owner. ,my field of work is unlightly to cause whole scale destruction. I understand logging to provide wood for homes has in the past. I tree planted to a summer I have seen the results of poor logging practice's

I understand completely. There were lots of upset people from the spill on Wabamun. It is important to have the emotional aspect and that is one primary reason why the regulations are so strict in Alberta compared to elsewhere. We hold industry to a very high standard and when problems happen, there is a lot of resources mobilized.

Logging has been bad for Alberta. To this day the pulp mills pump thousands of gallons of dioxin ladden effluent into rivers. Regulations allow them to increase release of pollutants into rivers by dilution factors versus tonnage. Increase the volume of water to mix more pollution with...

Logging has caused stream erosion. Many areas are slow to be replanted. Bridges/Culverts stopping fish migration. Roads increasing fishing pressure to pristine areas. Clear cuts destroy the areas recreational value. Mixed forest ecosytems destroyed via plantation style planting. Elk, moose, deer and caribou reduction due to increased predation by both hunters and wolves that can travel corridors easier. Logging is way, way less of regulated industry when compared to oil and gas.

While a spill has an effect...it is not as long lasting as the dioxin mats on the bottom of the Athabasca River.