Big Horn Sheep article

[JoshT]

I know they're has been lots on threads on full curl regulations, but April's AO magazine had a great article on why full Curl regulations will not work for a healthy sheep population. It actually cited a study done in the 80's how taking more young sheep helped increase horn size due to less competition over food. Thought it would be worth mentioning for others to go read.

[Swervs]

I read that article, it was really well done. Hopefully that info makes it to the powers that be.

[ram crazy]

I'm sure bdub will argue otherwise until he is blue in the face.

[DieBoer]

All scientific articles well written like that is full of theory - just saying ...not al FACTS but some theory /prjections or likelyhood..

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I'm sure bdub will argue otherwise until he is blue in the face.

Have you read the article yet?

[bdub]

If you subscribe to what Mr Boyce believes then you also must believe that the population density of sheep is above the carrying capacity throughout the province. You must also believe that we should kill off large number of ewes or let cougars, wolves do it for us.

"The effect of high density on decreased horn size on Ram Mountain only occurred after the population more than doubled and the number of ewes tripled" That is straight from the horses mouth. Has the population in Alberta increased by double? No, it has remained about the same for decades. Why are we seeing so few Class five rams post season has nothing to do with the population density of the sheep herd and everything to do with us killing large numbers of immature rams year after year after year.

If we are stupid enough to go down the road that Boyce thinks we should about the only thing that will happen is there will be far fewer ewes left in Alberta producing far fewer rams available for harvest. I hope most sheep hunters are not that gullible.

[mntmanpick]

Now read the May AO rebuttal by Marco Festa-Bianchet and ask yourself how two expert biologist have completely different opinions on the same data. Everyone has there own opinion sometimes fueled by grant money and not what is in the best interest of the sheep or hunters. Yes you can kill ewes to help increase horn size but how many of those ewes will carry the genes to produce large sweeping curls and how many of those ewes are good mothers raising health lambs year after year and know how to survive sever winters.

[cowboyhunter]

We are no where's near the carrying capacity in Alberta. Stupid to keep whacking ewes in most areas for sure!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by cowboyhunter

We are no where's near the carrying capacity in Alberta. Stupid to keep whacking ewes in most areas for sure!

Then tell what is the carrying capacity?

How much sheep habitat has been degraded ( by feral horses or in the case of Ram Mountain, by an overpopulation of sheep) or ingrown by trees over the last 40 years?

Alberta biologist recognize that sheep populations have dropped or have been eliminated in some areas because the habitat is no longer suitable....

What is the different fecundity and individual body and horn growth rates for a Bighorn population composed of young animals under the carrying capacity compared to an aged population at carrying capacity?


Why were sheep populations increasing and high ram harvest numbers maintained or increased along with larger average horn size during the years (1980's) when we had a ewe harvest 1000% higher than we currently do?


I think that Geist and Boyce have it right. Likely the biggest mistake in Bighorn sheep management that F&W has made in the last 30 years is when Jorgenson made drastic cuts to the ewe harvest. It has all been downhill from there....

[Luckwell]

Originally Posted by cowboyhunter

We are no where's near the carrying capacity in Alberta. Stupid to keep whacking ewes in most areas for sure!

Mind sharing a link, study or article to support your above statement?

I agree with Walking Buffalo. Giests study was pretty easy to follow if you have read his material. Stable populations and declining populations have shown to have slow growing rams. Increasing populations have shown to have faster growing rams.

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this repetitive debate with fellas just "sharing" their opinions rather than facts. I have failed

[cowboyhunter]

I think you have to break down regions. From the Trans Canada south the sheep numbers don't resemble any thing like in the late '70's early 80's. Even in Banff where Mother Nature looks after herself , the numbers are down. I have no data to show any one ,I don't no what sheep numbers are from highway one to highway 16, I don't travel there.i have seen biologist work in the past and I would have trouble putting any faith in their numbers, sorry.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Then tell what is the carrying capacity?

How much sheep habitat has been degraded ( by feral horses or in the case of Ram Mountain, by an overpopulation of sheep) or ingrown by trees over the last 40 years?

Alberta biologist recognize that sheep populations have dropped or have been eliminated in some areas because the habitat is no longer suitable....

What is the different fecundity and individual body and horn growth rates for a Bighorn population composed of young animals under the carrying capacity compared to an aged population at carrying capacity?


Why were sheep populations increasing and high ram harvest numbers maintained or increased along with larger average horn size during the years (1980's) when we had a ewe harvest 1000% higher than we currently do?


I think that Geist and Boyce have it right. Likely the biggest mistake in Bighorn sheep management that F&W has made in the last 30 years is when Jorgenson made drastic cuts to the ewe harvest. It has all been downhill from there....

The high ewe harvest years coincide with the high ram harvest years of the 80's. Prior to the years where the high numbers of ewe permits, the number of sheep hunters was about just over 1000 per year. As the ewe permits increased the numbers of trophy sheep hunters exploded to 3300 ish sheep hunters at the peak. 2000 plus more guys hitting the hills each year killing almost every legal ram. By 1984 the ram herd was on the downhill slide at the same time the ewe harvest began to decrease even as permits increased for a couple more years. Prior to that time we probably had a healthy ram herd. Over harvest of immature rams peaked at that time and have never recovered from it. We now have far more hunters in the hills, 2400 ish per year, and we kill virtually every 4/5 ram available every season. Almost all the large rams killed each season now come from wandering out of a park or a protected area. High ewe harvests and the resulting high ram harvests of the 80's were a mistake imo.

[DieBoer]

Did read the article and DO NOT agree bdub...I politely pointed out assumptions, projections short samples and other shortcomings stated as facts rather than the scientific opinion it is ...at best!

[ram crazy]

I rest my case with bdub and agree with Dale. One of my dad's old sheep hunting pal said it best the good old days of sheep hunting are right now.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I rest my case with bdub and agree with Dale. One of my dad's old sheep hunting pal said it best the good old days of sheep hunting are right now.

If you believe the best days of sheep hunting in Alberta are right now than I want what you and your dads old pal are smoking because it must be good crap.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I rest my case with bdub and agree with Dale. One of my dad's old sheep hunting pal said it best the good old days of sheep hunting are right now.

I agree with him 100%

[stringer]

Originally Posted by bdub

If you believe the best days of sheep hunting in Alberta are right now than I want what you and your dads old pal are smoking because it must be good crap.

I'm smoking the same.
Sheep ribs on a Louisiana grill.
delicious

[ram crazy]

bdub I think you should go back to BC and hunt sheep because they have it all figured out. Wonder why you came back to Alberta to kill a 4/5 Ram last year!

[cowboyhunter]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I rest my case with bdub and agree with Dale. One of my dad's old sheep hunting pal said it best the good old days of sheep hunting are right now.

I don't know bdub, but I don't think the best times are right now. I think we are a little late for that!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

bdub I think you should go back to BC and hunt sheep because they have it all figured out. Wonder why you came back to Alberta to kill a 4/5 Ram last year!

On every thread on the subject you keep bringing this up over and over like it matters to the debate/discussion?

I moved because of work, I killed the ram because he was a fully mature 10.5 year old heavily broomed ram. Right from the start I have advocated for a 4/5 broomed/full curl rule but you know that from past discussion.

The good old days of sheep hunting are not now by any metric you choose to look at.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]


I moved because of work, I killed the ram because he was a fully mature 10.5 year old heavily broomed ram. Right from the start I have advocated for a 4/5 broomed/full curl rule but you know that from past discussion.

The good old days of sheep hunting are not now by any metric you choose to look at.

But by the new regs that are trying to be implemented it still wouldn't be a legal Ram. Pretty tough to have a 4/5 broomed rule, because everyones perception of what a broomed Ram is, is different. Pretty hard to put imaginary inches on a Ram in the field.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

But by the new regs that are trying to be implemented it still wouldn't be a legal Ram. Pretty tough to have a 4/5 broomed rule, because everyones perception of what a broomed Ram is, is different. Pretty hard to put imaginary inches on a Ram in the field.

Not sure where or what your point is with the first statement?

As for the broomed criteria it is done in other jurisdictions. Just takes educating hunters. But it isn't really on the table as an option so not much point in discussing the point.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by stringer

I agree with him 100%

I agree as well. The best "good old days" of hunting in Alberta are right now.
I think a look back ten years from now will verify that.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

On every thread on the subject you keep bringing this up over and over like it matters to the debate/discussion?

I moved because of work, I killed the ram because he was a fully mature 10.5 year old heavily broomed ram. Right from the start I have advocated for a 4/5 broomed/full curl rule but you know that from past discussion.

The good old days of sheep hunting are not now by any metric you choose to look at.

Nice blockhead broomed 3/4 curls are a trophy. A lamb tipped 4/5 squeeker is, well, a barely legal sheep.

Sheep are supposed to be a trophy animal, You will never have a quality herd or hunt if you kill 99% of the rams soon as they become a squeeker.

It needs to be decided if the hunters of Alberta want Quality Trophy sheep hunts or if they are happy carrying on with the same old Squeeker seasons.

Sheep habitat in Alberta is way too small for the amount of hunters. Habitat needs to be opened up through controlled burns to bring back habitat and increase sheep numbers. Hunting pressure on the squeekers needs to be reduced. The general hunting season curl regulation should be moved to full curl with an additional limited draw for 3/4 curl or larger broomed rams that will never make it to full curl can also be harvested. This would allow the young squeekers to grow up and become trophy rams and allow some of those old blockhead 3/4 and 4/5 monster rams that will never make full curl to be harvested. Even if the draw guys shot 3/4 young lamb tipped rams that would be their choice, with the draw limited enough it would still leave lots of survivor rams to grow up and give opportunity to take some of those great but 'short' broomed off trophies that otherwise would die of old age.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Nice blockhead broomed 3/4 curls are a trophy. A lamb tipped 4/5 squeeker is, well, a barely legal sheep.

Sheep are supposed to be a trophy animal, You will never have a quality herd or hunt if you kill 99% of the rams soon as they become a squeeker.

It needs to be decided if the hunters of Alberta want Quality Trophy sheep hunts or if they are happy carrying on with the same old Squeeker seasons.

Sheep habitat in Alberta is way too small for the amount of hunters. Habitat needs to be opened up through controlled burns to bring back habitat and increase sheep numbers. Hunting pressure on the squeekers needs to be reduced. The general hunting season curl regulation should be moved to full curl with an additional limited draw for 3/4 curl or larger broomed rams that will never make it to full curl can also be harvested. This would allow the young squeekers to grow up and become trophy rams and allow some of those old blockhead 3/4 and 4/5 monster rams that will never make full curl to be harvested. Even if the draw guys shot 3/4 young lamb tipped rams that would be their choice, with the draw limited enough it would still leave lots of survivor rams to grow up and give opportunity to take some of those great but 'short' broomed off trophies that otherwise would die of old age.

I agree, to bad all the outfitters and a large number of residents prefer to carry on with the squeaker harvest.

Would the addition of an option to harvest broomed sub full curl sheep get more support for change? Probably not from the outfitters but maybe from the resident sheep hunters?

[stringer]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Nice blockhead broomed 3/4 curls are a trophy. A lamb tipped 4/5 squeeker is, well, a barely legal sheep.

Sheep are supposed to be a trophy animal, You will never have a quality herd or hunt if you kill 99% of the rams soon as they become a squeeker.

It needs to be decided if the hunters of Alberta want Quality Trophy sheep hunts or if they are happy carrying on with the same old Squeeker seasons.

Sheep habitat in Alberta is way too small for the amount of hunters. Habitat needs to be opened up through controlled burns to bring back habitat and increase sheep numbers. Hunting pressure on the squeekers needs to be reduced. The general hunting season curl regulation should be moved to full curl with an additional limited draw for 3/4 curl or larger broomed rams that will never make it to full curl can also be harvested. This would allow the young squeekers to grow up and become trophy rams and allow some of those old blockhead 3/4 and 4/5 monster rams that will never make full curl to be harvested. Even if the draw guys shot 3/4 young lamb tipped rams that would be their choice, with the draw limited enough it would still leave lots of survivor rams to grow up and give opportunity to take some of those great but 'short' broomed off trophies that otherwise would die of old age.

Who are you to tell someone that the legal animal they chose to harvest is not a trophy because it doesn't measure up to your standards ?
I consider all my sheep hunts to be quality hunts as I don't measure the quality of the hunt by whether I was sucsessful or not,or by how big my trophy is compared to yours .
Like I said before the best sheep hunting is now.
You'll realize that when that opportunity goes the way of the alberta's grizzly bear hunt.
After all that is ESRD 's end game and your reiterate is just helping them along.
If your having trouble finding Big Rams maybe look in the mirror , you may not be the great sheep hunter you perceive yourself to be.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by bdub

I agree, to bad all the outfitters and a large number of residents prefer to carry on with the squeaker harvest.

Would the addition of an option to harvest broomed sub full curl sheep get more support for change? Probably not from the outfitters but maybe from the resident sheep hunters?

You sound like a broken record.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by stringer

You sound like a broken record.

You guys do too.

If all you and ram crazy can add is "I sound like a broken record" and "go back to BC" and "the best sheep hunting is right now" well there is not much point in continuing the discussion.

[nube]

I have stayed away with these types of discussions and havn't said much on it. Personally I don't see the issue with the way it is now. It isn't hard to find a legal ram and I still see lots of big ones every year getting shot so I don't know the issue....
That being said I would love to see better quality. We all would but I am not wanting to give up much to get it. There are valid points on a lot of what guys want to change to. Hopefully in the end if things do change we don't find ourselves getting one sheep tag every 10-20 years or so like it is in the states.

Some of you guys get so riled up in this. It's like you think you can actually make a difference in what will be done. They will do what they want in the end.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by bdub

You guys do too.

If all you and ram crazy can add is "I sound like a broken record" and "go back to BC" and "the best sheep hunting is right now" well there is not much point in continuing the discussion.

Just one question
How many years have you hunted sheep in Alberta ?