shut down Thread Citing Powley as reason

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Nice in theory and we probably would have had something similar IF the government of the day did not bring the Indian Act into Legislation essentially making Indians ward of the state........a bit of research into the creation and why this racist act was introduced might make you go aaaaah. I said "might"...

Just as legislation can be created, it can also be amended.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Sporty

No, that isn't what scrip was

This page gives a good history of the Red River Metis and explanation of Scrip for anyone interested.

http://www.metisfamilyservices.ca/me.../metis-history



I think I said exactly the opposite of what you're accusing me of; "fear mongering". I was trying to bring some reality to the discussion of what this ruling actually means for those who are concerned.

I think what is being said is their view of scrip and what the deeper meaning of it was as well as the lasting effects of it. I do agree to certain level as I still feel that the government offered compensation for something perceived or real at the time it was offered. Scrip Is not a treaty but the purpose of it I feel isn't really that much different. The government of the time did what they thought was right by both groups to achieve what the governments agenda was. I still don't see a large difference between the viewed outcome and achieved goals" for the government" of either scrip or treaty, just different rules governing them. Based on dealing with a large group at one time or individually with the Metis. Not looking to be called names here, just trying to give a different view. As to why the government may have come to the point where they made this recent decision.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just as legislation can be created, it can also be amended.

Or eliminated..................this federal government is finally reviewing and hopefully rescinding this racist piece of legislation and replacing it with something that can reconcile what has happened in this country. Just wondering why it took 140 years.....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Or eliminated..................this federal government is finally reviewing and hopefully rescinding this racist piece of legislation and replacing it with something that can reconcile what has happened in this country. Just wondering why it took 140 years.....

I have pretty much zero hope that the federal government will ever rewrite the constitution to eliminate the racist legislation that it contains. As much as I would like to see every Canadian being equal under the law, I just don't see it ever happening.

[dgl1948]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

I hope that is not the extent of your said familiarity and knowledge of treaty implementation in this country....

Your understanding is reference to the Indian Act and not the Treaties....

Sorry but this is from treaty 4,

Further, Her Majesty agrees that within the boundary of the Indian reserves, until otherwise determined by the Government of the Dominion of Canada, no intoxicating liquor shall be allowed to be introduced or sold, and all laws now in force, or hereafter to be enacted, to preserve Her Indian subjects, inhabiting the reserves, or living elsewhere within the North-West Territories, from the evil effects of intoxicating liquor, shall be strictly enforced

[dgl1948]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

I hope that is not the extent of your said familiarity and knowledge of treaty implementation in this country....

Your understanding is reference to the Indian Act and not the Treaties....

From treaty 6

Her Majesty further agrees with Her said Indians that within the boundary of Indian reserves, until otherwise determined by Her Government of the Dominion of Canada, no intoxicating liquor shall be allowed to be introduced or sold, and all laws now in force, or hereafter to be enacted, to preserve Her Indian subjects inhabiting the reserves or living elsewhere within Her North-west Territories from the evil influence of the use of intoxicating liquors, shall be strictly enforced

One keeps hearing the treaties are not being honoured. Frankly they are so out of date no First Nations person would want them to be followed. I have my doubts if any chief in this day would trade his wage for the $25.00 and suit of clothes he is entitled to each year. They way governments have dealt with first nations is to throw money at them in order to make problems go away. That does not work. Attawapiskat has money each year the amounts to more than $50,000.00 per person on that reserve every year. Then the diamond mine in that area has spent millions in the community as well. The people there have lived with handouts so long that they have lost their self respect. Their lives have no real meaning and it is now being brought to the forefront by the younger generation. Having said this I do not mean to ridicule them. Any community in Canada, be they white or whatever would find themselves in the same situation if they were treated the same. Money is not the answer to al the problems but it has been the governments response to the issue. Money will not fix it. There are now not going to be any easy solutions for communities like this.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

From treaty 6



One keeps hearing the treaties are not being honoured. Frankly they are so out of date no First Nations person would want them to be followed. I have my doubts if any chief in this day would trade his wage for the $25.00 and suit of clothes he is entitled to each year. They way governments have dealt with first nations is to throw money at them in order to make problems go away. That does not work. Attawapiskat has money each year the amounts to more than $50,000.00 per person on that reserve every year. Then the diamond mine in that area has spent millions in the community as well. The people there have lived with handouts so long that they have lost their self respect. Their lives have no real meaning and it is now being brought to the forefront by the younger generation. Having said this I do not mean to ridicule them. Any community in Canada, be they white or whatever would find themselves in the same situation if they were treated the same. Money is not the answer to al the problems but it has been the governments response to the issue. Money will not fix it. There are now not going to be any easy solutions for communities like this.

I beleive this to be true.

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Or eliminated..................this federal government is finally reviewing and hopefully rescinding this racist piece of legislation and replacing it with something that can reconcile what has happened in this country. Just wondering why it took 140 years.....

Why replace it at all? Why not just do away with all special rules and just make them everyday Canadians? That would be the most logical thing to do.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by deerguy

Why replace it at all? Why not just do away with all special rules and just make them everyday Canadians? That would be the most logical thing to do.

That would be precident setting for the entire world, can't see Canada making that stand, be it right or wrong, can't see our pretty boy at the lead doing it

[Sporty]

To be fair, the Liberals weren't responsible for this new ruling, it was the Supreme Court. The Gov will now have to enact legislation according to the ruling and I expect that they might even appeal if Canadians speak loudly enough.

As for the Indian Act, the best way to get rid of it is for the allowance of self governance, which many bands in the Yukon and BC have done. In the case of 4 Yukon bands, they're now treated as a municipality and are no longer governed by the Indian Act. The bands themselves also made certain concessions like giving up tax exemption for one. As a result, these bands are far more successful and independent. IMO, this is the only way to move forward from the Indian Act but First Nations need to make also make compromises but many chief and council are reluctant.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

That would be precident setting for the entire world, can't see Canada making that stand, be it right or wrong, can't see our pretty boy at the lead doing it

That would require a spine, and in that respect, Trudeau reminds me of a jellyfish.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Sporty

To be fair, the Liberals weren't responsible for this new ruling, it was the Supreme Court. The Gov will now have to enact legislation according to the ruling and I expect that they might even appeal if Canadians speak loudly enough.

As for the Indian Act, the best way to get rid of it is for the allowance of self governance, which many bands in the Yukon and BC have done. In the case of 4 Yukon bands, they're now treated as a municipality and are no longer governed by the Indian Act. The bands themselves also made certain concessions like giving up tax exemption for one. As a result, these bands are far more successful and independent. IMO, this is the only way to move forward from the Indian Act but First Nations need to make also make compromises but many chief and council are reluctant.

Ummm can you appeal the Supreme Court,,, I thought that was it

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

I am very familiar with the treaties. The only thing that is not honoured is the sale of liqueur to First Nations. The treaties forbid that.

Really as you are very familiar with the treaties I am surprised you missed the papaschase footnote. They signed treaty 6 and then were starved off their land, given nothing for it and then moved to another reserve.

papaschase.ca/history.html

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by Sporty

No, that isn't what scrip was

This page gives a good history of the Red River Metis and explanation of Scrip for anyone interested.

http://www.metisfamilyservices.ca/me.../metis-history



I think I said exactly the opposite of what you're accusing me of; "fear mongering". I was trying to bring some reality to the discussion of what this ruling actually means for those who are concerned.

An example implementation of script history

papaschase.ca/history.html

Scrip was used to defraud many status and metis.

[savagencounter]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

This is/ should not be a surprise or shock to you at all it goes on all around you with lots of different nationalities and races. That's how it is and will always be, this one just makes you mad because it threatens your entertainment that you like, hunting tags are exactly that, entertainment, you hunt because you enjoy it, no different than me having flames season tickets and I have to move because they expand the handicap seating area, an identifiable group that gets special treatment, or maybe I have to park farther away to see the game because they took 20 parking spots for mothers with small children, or ten more spots for people in the service how dare they be racist like that and inconvenience my entertainment for the sake of an identifiable group that's different then me,,, I think I'll write my mla and start a petition,,,,,, it's life,,, that's how it is,, deal with it as it goes on all around you every minute of every day, year after year. Maybe diversify and supplement your entertainment with another. Let's be clear here, most only want this to stop so they can have some animals to kill, as do I, if you were concerned as some say for the numbers of animals then they would hunt with a camera and not a gun. Let's not hide behind conservation when all you want to do is have some to kill for yourself, for entertainment. How's that for a new twist!!!!

Hunting isn't just entertainment we hunt for meat. If it's just entertainment for you might do it for sport and thrills but we all don't.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

From treaty 6



One keeps hearing the treaties are not being honoured. Frankly they are so out of date no First Nations person would want them to be followed. I have my doubts if any chief in this day would trade his wage for the $25.00 and suit of clothes he is entitled to each year. They way governments have dealt with first nations is to throw money at them in order to make problems go away. That does not work. Attawapiskat has money each year the amounts to more than $50,000.00 per person on that reserve every year. Then the diamond mine in that area has spent millions in the community as well. The people there have lived with handouts so long that they have lost their self respect. Their lives have no real meaning and it is now being brought to the forefront by the younger generation. Having said this I do not mean to ridicule them. Any community in Canada, be they white or whatever would find themselves in the same situation if they were treated the same. Money is not the answer to al the problems but it has been the governments response to the issue. Money will not fix it. There are now not going to be any easy solutions for communities like this.

Many have not been honoured. Simple proven fact.... But that was then.... This is now.....

I agree with you. Our constant distributing of cash to Native governments/organizations does not work.... Those organizations have learned how to be as corrupt and greedy as the people we all put into office.... Im not saying all, But I do say a lot....

Im not sure what the answer is.

I do believe this new court decision means nothing.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by Sporty

To be fair, the Liberals weren't responsible for this new ruling, it was the Supreme Court. The Gov will now have to enact legislation according to the ruling and I expect that they might even appeal if Canadians speak loudly enough.

As for the Indian Act, the best way to get rid of it is for the allowance of self governance, which many bands in the Yukon and BC have done. In the case of 4 Yukon bands, they're now treated as a municipality and are no longer governed by the Indian Act. The bands themselves also made certain concessions like giving up tax exemption for one. As a result, these bands are far more successful and independent. IMO, this is the only way to move forward from the Indian Act but First Nations need to make also make compromises but many chief and council are reluctant.

That sounds awesome!

[dgl1948]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Really as you are very familiar with the treaties I am surprised you missed the papaschase footnote. They signed treaty 6 and then were starved off their land, given nothing for it and then moved to another reserve.

papaschase.ca/history.html

Liqueur.... seriously?

I never said the treaties or treatment were fair.

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

Lets just give them handguns and bullets and set them free...

Same result.

You trying to tell me they can't survive on their own? We have done it just fine since forever, I am sure they can do it starting off no needling to advance or create anything, literally everything they need to survive is pretty much provided these days.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by dgl1948

I never said the treaties or treatment were fair.

No you said all treaties were honored. that means all agreements were met. You are wrong. they were not. The one example i pointed out proves that. There are many more.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by deerguy

You trying to tell me they can't survive on their own? We have done it just fine since forever, I am sure they can do it starting off no needling to advance or create anything, literally everything they need to survive is pretty much provided these days.

No one in this country survives on their own. You do not pay for health care, You do not pay for roads. You do not pay to use a public washroom. We all pay. You would have none of these services without societal pay.

I dont believe you to be the island you are implying.

We have built a very damaged system here. Many of these people that were placed on remote reserves would not survive if we cut them off and they went cold turkey on monday.

No chance.

Likewise say your wife is pregnant with twins and your due monday. Tonight the government stops subsidizing baby delivery and now you have to pay the $50,000 they pay in the states to have a baby(not sure of that amount just a guess)... Your probably going to have a few problems....

We need a better system.... We also need a government that honours agreements.... We also need to enforce and monitor ANY funds that go to ANY specific groups in this country. Native bands are just as corrupt as our own governments.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by Camdelle

An example implementation of script history

papaschase.ca/history.html

Scrip was used to defraud many status and metis.

Thanks for the link but it discusses First Nations who were swindled out of their rights through scrip, but I'm sure you know they and many other First Nations who lost their rights were able to obtain them back. When I'm discussing scrip, I'm talking about Red River Metis and the fact that they did not enter into treaty so they had no "status" to lose. They will never get the same status as First Nations under this ruling.

[Newview01]

- the government screwed up royally many years ago
- are the people who screwed up that bad still alive
- should we hold the current government responsible for the actions of those who were in power many years ago
- can we agree that all Canadians should be equal, and that no one individual should receive more assistance than another individual in the same financial circumstances
- can we agree that all hunters should abide by the same set of rules, regardless of history
- given today's society, I believe it would be wise to begin to phase out all treaties. The government provides enough social assistance that this should be possible. If the money that was given to First Nations was redirected to all Canadians equally, I believe we would have an excellent, structured social assistance program.
- correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I see the situation. Currently racism is abounding, and I believe the government is at fault in many ways.

[DJS]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

This is/ should not be a surprise or shock to you at all it goes on all around you with lots of different nationalities and races. That's how it is and will always be, this one just makes you mad because it threatens your entertainment that you like, hunting tags are exactly that, entertainment, you hunt because you enjoy it, no different than me having flames season tickets and I have to move because they expand the handicap seating area, an identifiable group that gets special treatment, or maybe I have to park farther away to see the game because they took 20 parking spots for mothers with small children, or ten more spots for people in the service how dare they be racist like that and inconvenience my entertainment for the sake of an identifiable group that's different then me,,, I think I'll write my mla and start a petition,,,,,, it's life,,, that's how it is,, deal with it as it goes on all around you every minute of every day, year after year. Maybe diversify and supplement your entertainment with another. Let's be clear here, most only want this to stop so they can have some animals to kill, as do I, if you were concerned as some say for the numbers of animals then they would hunt with a camera and not a gun. Let's not hide behind conservation when all you want to do is have some to kill for yourself, for entertainment. How's that for a new twist!!!!

No I'm not shocked at this and I'm quite aware that it goes on all around me every day. And that's my point. It shouldn't. In a time where everyone pushes for equal rights this and equal rights that how is it that there are different rules for different races of people? It's not equal and it's a problem.
Your analogy of comparing this problem to your season ticket priveleges being taken away due to more handicap seating is terrible. Really?
And wether it's entertainment or wether it's to put food in the freezer the rules should be the same for each one wanting to do it. In case you forgot, this is a hunting Forum. Not really a head scratcher to see people talking about the hunting aspect of this issue here.

[antlercarver]

I see many non native hunters claim they hunt for the meat. They have 50-80 thousand dollars in trucks, quads, guns, scopes, range finders, camo to get a animal, which they pay $400 or more to have made into sausage or jerky. Their meat costs several multiples of the cost of store meat.
It is just a excuse to go play mountain man and kill something. Most modern hunting results in the most expensive meat ever. They just want to kill some thing , any thing they can get tags for, other than that get a camera. JMO

[antlercarver]

The government did not screw up 150 years ago. They reacquired a country 2000 miles across, with trillions of board ft. of lumber, billions barrels of oil in the ground, 10, 000s of gas wells , resources in iron, copper, nickle, oceans full of fish. Enough jobs to support 35,000,000 people. Look up standard of living in Canada compared to the rest of the world. We have the very best place and we got it from the people who were here. We got it not through war but through treaty.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by antlercarver

I see many non native hunters claim they hunt for the meat. They have 50-80 thousand dollars in trucks, quads, guns, scopes, range finders, camo to get a animal, which they pay $400 or more to have made into sausage or jerky. Their meat costs several multiples of the cost of store meat.
It is just a excuse to go play mountain man and kill something. Most modern hunting results in the most expensive meat ever. They just want to kill some thing , any thing they can get tags for, other than that get a camera. JMO

So what's your point!
Not all of us spend that kind of money to put meat in the freezer, and I for one do not hunt just to kill something , neither do any of the people that hunt with.
But then , don't think I know any natives that hunt that drive boats or trucks as old as mine either.

Killing for me is part of it and a necessary part, hardly the major part though.
If I didn't want to eat my big game kills or sell the pelts of the fur bearers I would hunt with a camera only.
Cat

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by antlercarver

The government did not screw up 150 years ago. They reacquired a country 2000 miles across, with trillions of board ft. of lumber, billions barrels of oil in the ground, 10, 000s of gas wells , resources in iron, copper, nickle, oceans full of fish. Enough jobs to support 35,000,000 people. Look up standard of living in Canada compared to the rest of the world. We have the very best place and we got it from the people who were here. We got it not through war but through treaty.

We colonized and created a country, we did not "re acquire" it. We have the very best place in the world because of the ingenuity of our (my) ancestors, nothing Ness nothing more. As for "treaty not war" , please don't confuse yourself, the Indians tried very hard to get the Europeans out of here and failed time and time again, the Europeans very tired with the horseplay made the Indians a deal so they could carry on with real world business.

And yes, the government did screw up, there should have been substantially better planning with the treaty wording and more of a direct oversight into how the funds distributed to the reservations are spent. Right now all we are doing ios throwing money at a never ending problem. Time for real solutions that don't involve me paying money to hush people up.

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by Sporty

Thanks for the link but it discusses First Nations who were swindled out of their rights through scrip, but I'm sure you know they and many other First Nations who lost their rights were able to obtain them back. When I'm discussing scrip, I'm talking about Red River Metis and the fact that they did not enter into treaty so they had no "status" to lose. They will never get the same status as First Nations under this ruling.

I agree of course. My point is that I do not really believe anything will change because of this ruling.

[antlercarver]

Yes there are people who hunt for meat and process their meat but more dont . Just try to find a butcher shop to take the meat from September to new year, they are all booked solid. You know who is using them, people went hunting and now have the inconvenience of having to do something with the meat. I hunt for meat, and take very good care of it, because thats what I went for.