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Old 12-12-2017, 10:15 PM
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Default Interesting take on medical marijuana in the USA and gun ownership

I thought this was interesting. Medical marijuana leads to gun confiscation. I wonder if this concept will come to Canada too?

https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-12-...fiscation.html
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:33 PM
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But yet they don’t seemingly give the same treatment to those on pharmaceutical anti depressants. Think those drugs are a bigger cause of worry than medical marijuana.


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Old 12-13-2017, 08:38 AM
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I suspect that will get challenged in court fairly quick.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:35 AM
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Check out the cited article on Leafly, they explain the situation better without getting into all the rhetoric that Natural News did. Basically what it comes down to is that on one of the ATF forms you fill out when you buy a firearm there is a checkbox that asks if you are a marijuana user. Remember that regardless of what laws a state has passed the federal government considers marijuana a drug more dangerous than cocaine, prescribed or not. If you didn’t check that so you would be able to get a firearm but later get a MMJ prescription then there’s a problem.

It sounds like there is a unique situation in Hawaii as they require guns to be registered and they are also one of the only states to maintain a list of people
With MMJ prescriptions so there is something to correlate. The big question from my point of view is are they doing this because they think it’s a significant problem or are they doing it because they realized there is a potential liability if they have this information and didn’t use it? Imagine a mass shooting at some point in the future where the perpetrator had a MMJ prescription. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if there was an army of lawyers ready to blame it on the devil weed.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:49 AM
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The 'Merikans look at non-alcoholic drugs oddly, even when legal. Yet this is no problem.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Bullets View Post
I thought this was interesting. Medical marijuana leads to gun confiscation. I wonder if this concept will come to Canada too?

https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-12-...fiscation.html
Your comment about it coming to Canada makes no sense. In the states it is illegal at the federal level. I'm Canada it will be legal at the federal level. Big difference.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Bullets View Post
I thought this was interesting. Medical marijuana leads to gun confiscation. I wonder if this concept will come to Canada too?

https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-12-...fiscation.html
Latest poll out of Orillia Ontario suggest 79% will sell their guns to buy Cheetos.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:20 AM
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First of all, cannabis isn't going to be fully legalized in Canada. There will still be laws and limits surrounding the plant.

Second of all, Trudeau hasn't touched on any of the promises he made over firearms in Canada. Makes me think he's going to wait til after weed is legal, then push for stronger background checks - to include the use of cannabis. Will there be a registration system for buying cannabis from a local store? That's the question of the day. Lots up in the air, I'd be a little concerned personally.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
First of all, cannabis isn't going to be fully legalized in Canada. There will still be laws and limits surrounding the plant.

Second of all, Trudeau hasn't touched on any of the promises he made over firearms in Canada. Makes me think he's going to wait til after weed is legal, then push for stronger background checks - to include the use of cannabis. Will there be a registration system for buying cannabis from a local store? That's the question of the day. Lots up in the air, I'd be a little concerned personally.
Your tin foil hat must be getting a little tight again. They are in direct competition with the black market and they know it. Money talks.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:23 PM
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Your tin foil hat must be getting a little tight again. They are in direct competition with the black market and they know it. Money talks.
Oh my, you're funny.

Quick search on google. Black market weed national average in Canada is about $8.30 a gram. Ontario just came out with a possible price of $10 a gram. Who's competing with who now? Dealers tend to give discounts as well - pot stores don't.

Money talks alright, the black market isn't going to dry up and the government is greedy. This will go sideways in a hurry, and dealers will be laughing their collective arses off.


i'll keep my tinfoil thanks.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:30 PM
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Will there be a registration system for buying cannabis from a local store? That's the question of the day. Lots up in the air, I'd be a little concerned personally.
^that's an interesting question for a few reasons. If the answer is "yes", then who has access to it? US customs when you're crossing the border? What about when a person goes to renew their driver's license? Renewing your PAL? What (if any) ramifications?

I think that in spite of the way the laws are about to change, there is still a huge stigma attached to cannabis. The Liberals are drooling over the (estimated) billion dollars of profit in the first year alone, but I've yet to hear anything but criticisms about how they plan to roll this out. Still more questions than answers, but the greed factor seems to be ever-present. I think the LESS it's treated like alcohol and the MORE it's treated like something sketchy..the greater the chances are that those who buy on the "black market" still will. In other words, if loss of personal privacy is part of the cost of "government weed", I don't think sales will be quite what they're hoping for.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:38 PM
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Oh my, you're funny.

Quick search on google. Black market weed national average in Canada is about $8.30 a gram. Ontario just came out with a possible price of $10 a gram. Who's competing with who now? Dealers tend to give discounts as well - pot stores don't.

Money talks alright, the black market isn't going to dry up and the government is greedy. This will go sideways in a hurry, and dealers will be laughing their collective arses off.


i'll keep my tinfoil thanks.
That price difference is negligible when convenience is factored in. I can't see them setting up a registry. It would quickly be compared to the long gun registry and would likely end up being political suicide.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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That price difference is negligible when convenience is factored in. I can't see them setting up a registry. It would quickly be compared to the long gun registry and would likely end up being political suicide.
the difference of nearly $50 an ounce is negligible is it? Is that $10.00 per gram taxes in or not?

If a couple of years down the road, the government decides to increase the taxes, do you think dispensaries are going to drop the price of cannabis to give the government more? That's not how business works.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:20 PM
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The main problem this whole scheme will face is the greed of the government vs the greed of the black market guys. I suspect the black market guys with no taxes, low overhead, no welfare state etc will out compete the gov't in a heartbeat.

If anyone thinks the black market guys are going out of business anytime soon they should give their head a long hard shake......at $8 a gram their profit margin is so high that competing with the gov't will be a no brainer. Convenience factor or not, when the black market guys drop their prices to $5 a gram, still making a 200% or 300 or 500% (who knows?) profit, dispenaries will go the way of the Block Buster video stores........

And I can easily see it getting a LOT tougher to get into the USA, registry or not.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
the difference of nearly $50 an ounce is negligible is it? Is that $10.00 per gram taxes in or not?

If a couple of years down the road, the government decides to increase the taxes, do you think dispensaries are going to drop the price of cannabis to give the government more? That's not how business works.
You might be on to something there. You should phone up Colorado and let them know that legal weed at slightly higher than black market prices will be a complete failure.

Want to know why people buy coffee rather than make their own, or trade in propane bottles rather than fill them, or go out for dinner rather than cook at home? Convenience. Entire industries are built around it. And yes 50 bucks an ounce is negligible. If your worried about 50 bucks but still smoking an ounce of weed you got bigger problems.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:49 PM
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You might be on to something there. You should phone up Colorado and let them know that legal weed at slightly higher than black market prices will be a complete failure.

Want to know why people buy coffee rather than make their own, or trade in propane bottles rather than fill them, or go out for dinner rather than cook at home? Convenience. Entire industries are built around it. And yes 50 bucks an ounce is negligible. If your worried about 50 bucks but still smoking an ounce of weed you got bigger problems.

I think you need to do some research on the black market in Colorado. And I love when people compare Canada to the USA - $280 for an ounce of pot, probably plus tax in Ontario. $120 an ounce in Colorado.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:11 PM
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I think you need to do some research on the black market in Colorado. And I love when people compare Canada to the USA - $280 for an ounce of pot, probably plus tax in Ontario. $120 an ounce in Colorado.
I think you are under estimating the importance of clean undefiled pot. If I was going to imbibe, I would gladly pay a little extra to get regulated pot, rather than from some dirty dealer.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:56 PM
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the difference of nearly $50 an ounce is negligible is it? Is that $10.00 per gram taxes in or not?

If a couple of years down the road, the government decides to increase the taxes, do you think dispensaries are going to drop the price of cannabis to give the government more? That's not how business works.

You ever go in one of those weed stores? Its like a liquor store, everything is in there. Just the selection alone is enough to make it way more appealing.

I think in canada it is a different scene than the usa since our federal government legalizing the stuff for the whole country and the provinces are getting pulled into it. Then you got the usa which is a state by state basis with the federal government holding a dagger over everyones heads.

The usa is like a cop that looks the other way, where canada is saying let'er buck
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:05 PM
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I haven't partaken in awhile but where are you guys getting weed for $8/g ?
I was paying more than that quite awhile ago.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:15 PM
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I think you are under estimating the importance of clean undefiled pot. If I was going to imbibe, I would gladly pay a little extra to get regulated pot, rather than from some dirty dealer.
Really? Not going to say too much but...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle34308153/
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:07 PM
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I have my medical card and 1 of my LP's I pay anywhere from 10-14 dollars, my other LP is 8-9 dollars. I also know there are other places online that only sell to medical card holders and you can get it ranging anywhere from $3-$12. If they want to go that route then maybe they should target drunks, they're a lot more violent than anyone that uses weed.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:42 PM
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I have my medical card and 1 of my LP's I pay anywhere from 10-14 dollars, my other LP is 8-9 dollars. I also know there are other places online that only sell to medical card holders and you can get it ranging anywhere from $3-$12. If they want to go that route then maybe they should target drunks, they're a lot more violent than anyone that uses weed.
Can you or anyone tell me why every time weed is even mentioned, someone has to bring up that they think it's better for you, safer or otherwise better than alcohol?
They have nothing to do with each other.

I've never seen anyone in favor of deregulating alcohol even mention weed.

I don't drink or smoke anymore but every time weed is mentioned someone has to say something like "no one ever does anything bad after smoking pot"

I and my friends that drank never got violent because of it.

Violent people will be violent sober, drunk or stoned.
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:56 AM
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Can you or anyone tell me why every time weed is even mentioned, someone has to bring up that they think it's better for you, safer or otherwise better than alcohol?
They have nothing to do with each other.

I've never seen anyone in favor of deregulating alcohol even mention weed.

I don't drink or smoke anymore but every time weed is mentioned someone has to say something like "no one ever does anything bad after smoking pot"

I and my friends that drank never got violent because of it.

Violent people will be violent sober, drunk or stoned.
I would think people mention what is better because there is constantly a stigma about cannabis that people are used to fighting against. Not as big an issue now but there's always the naysayers. Also, I agree that somebody could be violent no matter what, but the likelyhood of this happening while drunk vs. stoned is night and day for some. We all know that "Jekle and Hyde" transformation of somebody that can't handle their whiskey or tequila. Ive never heard of this happening to somebody when they are just stoned. But there's always exceptions I suppose
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:53 AM
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You might be on to something there. You should phone up Colorado and let them know that legal weed at slightly higher than black market prices will be a complete failure.

Want to know why people buy coffee rather than make their own, or trade in propane bottles rather than fill them, or go out for dinner rather than cook at home? Convenience. Entire industries are built around it. And yes 50 bucks an ounce is negligible. If your worried about 50 bucks but still smoking an ounce of weed you got bigger problems.
Coffee is not a good example.

Anyone can grow a pot plant. Cost is low. Pot and dirt. Water and sun. Everyone has household plants.

Making the perfect cup of coffee with fancy creams cost money...lots of money for the machine and need to keep fridge stocked fresh however don't drink enough to warrant the quantities.

Yes...buying a cup is simpler than making it...however the pods now make it far easier. Now what office folks say is that the inconvenience of going 20 minutes away to buy coffee is worth the better cup or the networking experience.

When it comes to pot...price will pay a factor for many...especially low income. Quality will be key. Fact is however THC levels are through the roof compared to the 1960 & 70's. How is the government going to manage THC levels. That will be interesting. Also edibles...over dosing and minors. Then driving under the influence and operating equipment while impaired. Drug testing etc. Companies are having problems with drugs in the workplace now...can't imagine the problems once legal.

In the US black market pot makes up a sizeable percentage of overall sales. That means supporting organized crime as well as lost revenue.

Only way to limit black market is to allow personal growing and keep prices really low.

Problem then is the tax base is tiny and pot becomes a cash drag on GDP.

There is a happy tax and cost medium which the formula has been studied in the US. Canada will surely adopt rather than think things will be different here.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:57 AM
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Can you or anyone tell me why every time weed is even mentioned, someone has to bring up that they think it's better for you, safer or otherwise better than alcohol?
They have nothing to do with each other.

I've never seen anyone in favor of deregulating alcohol even mention weed.

I don't drink or smoke anymore but every time weed is mentioned someone has to say something like "no one ever does anything bad after smoking pot"

I and my friends that drank never got violent because of it.

Violent people will be violent sober, drunk or stoned.
To be fair...alcohol can metabolize differently in certain people and cause a very bad change in personality.

I know a guy...nice guy. Not mean but friendly even if kinda shy. After 4 beers he can't stop drinking and just looking at him can cause him to want to fight you. Very violent drinker. Had to stop for his own safety and that of others.

Pot can cause you to make bad life choices also. Just not fighting from what I have seen. Can kill someone if under the influence around machines. Definitely. Impaired motor and brain functions...big concern. I see people mistaken asking slow or stupid to being safe. That is a concern.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:12 AM
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I think you need to do some research on the black market in Colorado. And I love when people compare Canada to the USA - $280 for an ounce of pot, probably plus tax in Ontario. $120 an ounce in Colorado.
I did some research and it turns out 120 an ounce is the minimum you can expect to pay in Colorado, not the average. The average is more in line with 153, and goes up to 200. The 120$ is probably lower THC that is harder to sell. With the exchange rate, the average ounce of legal pot in Colorado will set you back just under 200$ CDN and the good stuff will cost you 250$.

http://www.priceofweed.com/prices/Un.../Colorado.html

You can get an ounce of high quality 17.5% THC weed from a licensed provider in Ontario is 210$ before taxes today. If the recreational costs significantly more than the medical, the powers that be will probably make it way more difficult to get a medical card.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Anyone can grow a pot plant. Cost is low. Pot and dirt. Water and sun. Everyone has household plants.

When it comes to pot...price will pay a factor for many...especially low income. Quality will be key. Fact is however THC levels are through the roof compared to the 1960 & 70's. How is the government going to manage THC levels. That will be interesting.

In the US black market pot makes up a sizeable percentage of overall sales. That means supporting organized crime as well as lost revenue.

Only way to limit black market is to allow personal growing and keep prices really low.

Problem then is the tax base is tiny and pot becomes a cash drag on GDP.

There is a happy tax and cost medium which the formula has been studied in the US. Canada will surely adopt rather than think things will be different here.
I have been asking and doing my own digging on these issues. Mainly from a curiosity and an investment view.....gotta know whether to buy stocks or short-sell the hell out of them.

Most conclude that in order for the black or grey market to die, pot needs to be closer to $50 per OZ retail.
Some of the questions that remain unanswered are:

1)How will the govt ever contain the grey market: nothing will stop the legal growers from backdoor selling to "friends/enterprising distributors" or even non-govt retailers, thereby avoiding all the up front new excise tax and of course ALL the income tax. Who controls the flow of pot out of the grow rooms? Is the government going to install their security guards/ controls to be able to tighten this gapping hole in their plans? Cant see this happening or the govt even remotely being able to stop the inevitable.

2)How will the govt be even capable of enforce any laws when everyone can grow 4 plants at home...tough to charge anybody with much when you're legal to grow and carry it (too a degree)

3)A household can legally grow a fair bit of quality pot with care and attention.....when they expect prices in the $250-280 per oz range.....thats quite the incentive to grow at home.....and sell grey market to all your friends. 4 plants averaging 5 oz every 3 months is 80 oz per year, at even $200 per oz that's a $16,000 after tax income incentive......equivalent to $20G or more. Even at California prices of $130 per OZ thats a $10-15G incentive. All with greatly reduced risk.

4) How can law enforcement even stop people from growing 10 plants instead. Before they could collect evidence from numerous methods that would indicate you are growing pot. Once its legal to grow, that evidence will not be sufficient to get a search warrant and prove you are growing more than 4 plants.

5) The planned law is 4 plants per household. Define household. Is your buddy renting a "non-cooking suite" a seperate household?? This one is sure to get some legal challenges should they ever be able to even charge someone.

So far the only two arguments FOR the govt are: convenience and safety.

Based on who consumes the majority of pot and their consumption habits and income levels, PRICE (like most other markets) is by far going to be the main determining factor of who has biggest the market share.....AND so far, I can't see it being the govt.

NOTE: I am not setting out to criticize the legalization of pot, just looking at trying to predict the longer term outcomes and how the market will react and how things are going to fall out from current decisions being made.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:24 PM
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I am a medical marijuana user, many of my friends are medical marijuana users. All of us used to deal with the black market, typically medical is $100 an once more than the black market.... we all pay the premium because of product quality, consistency and legality... we have all talked about this and not one of us will go back to the black market.

You get what you pay for and the quality difference is astronomical; ie, With black market product I may need to consume 2-3x the amount of medical, so the cost to effect ratio is better with medical.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:51 PM
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3)A household can legally grow a fair bit of quality pot with care and attention.....when they expect prices in the $250-280 per oz range.....thats quite the incentive to grow at home.....and sell grey market to all your friends. 4 plants averaging 5 oz every 3 months is 80 oz per year, at even $200 per oz that's a $16,000 after tax income incentive......equivalent to $20G or more. Even at California prices of $130 per OZ thats a $10-15G incentive. All with greatly reduced risk.
I've been looking both at doing this myself and trying to decide what some of my holdings are going to do so I've got some thoughts on the subject. Your analysis is flawed.

You can grow cannabis by putting a pot in the corner with a CFL over it, but you are not going to get 5oz of decent product off it. A setup that produces like that is going to need a tent with 2 lighting systems and climate control, hydro pots, a selection of nutrients, an RO system and ph testing gear. You're looking at a $1500 startup cost. Ongoing expenses of a hundred a month and more than a little time invested. In comparison you can go to an LP today and choose between a dozen different strains, dried and ready to consume shipped to your doorstep tomorrow for $250 - $350 an ounce.

Look at it this way; How many people do you know that make their own beer? Of those how many are any good at it? Do you think they keep executives from Molson up at night?

I still want to try it just for the sake of an interesting hobby really but I can't justify it based on the expense alone, I don't quite go through an 1/2 oz a month. Even if I go in with a couple friends and split it one really good harvest would keep us for half a year.

Last edited by midgetwaiter; 12-14-2017 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:25 PM
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I am a medical marijuana user, many of my friends are medical marijuana users. All of us used to deal with the black market, typically medical is $100 an once more than the black market.... we all pay the premium because of product quality, consistency and legality... we have all talked about this and not one of us will go back to the black market.

You get what you pay for and the quality difference is astronomical; ie, With black market product I may need to consume 2-3x the amount of medical, so the cost to effect ratio is better with medical.
If you're paying a premium price for no guarantees, then you may want to think again.


Myclobutanil is a banned pesticide - why are growers in Canada using it?

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Recently, two licensed producers undertook voluntary recalls after it was found that they had used unauthorized pesticides, including myclobutanil.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-cana...dcannabis.html

Pretty bad when you have to start recalling something as simple as weed. So much for pure medical. Off to a great start.

http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall...64298r-eng.php

http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall...65110r-eng.php
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