Sheep Part 3

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Why don't you try speaking for yourself. Not everyone is for limiting opportunity to have more "big" sheep. Not everyone is for making more draw areas when there is no good reason for them not to be general.

Very much my point Vin. And now that I've seen the elitist attitude that is flaunted by some here I'm not for doing anything that is designed expressly for bigger rams. I'm for what keeps the herd healthy but the rest of this is getting goofy. I am certainly against limiting opportunity for the sole reason to get big rams on the mountain.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Why don't you try speaking for yourself. Not everyone is for limiting opportunity to have more "big" sheep. Not everyone is for making more draw areas when there is no good reason for them not to be general.

I am speaking for myself!!! If you could read you would see that I have never pushed for BIGGER sheep. I feel from my days in the field and the rams I have seen on the ground we could use a more mature bunch of sheep out there. My opinion, if you dont agree doesnt make it wrong!!

Not all guys want what you want either!! Many people figure it will be a disaster to just open it to a general season. Prove to us how it can work and maybe we would change our minds. Show us how it wont end up just like every other zone out there!!
To just open up an area that is producing sheep that help sustain the areas around them is to me not the brightest idea. Its gunna take away from them and the zones around them!

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

was a point about me not just looking for a large ram around everycorner!! Some guys go for the adventure of being out there not just the killing of sheep. A sheep to some is a bonus to a great time in the mountains. To others a sheep is the only reason for going!!!

SG

No.. You are wrong.
To each and every "Hunter" you must have at least a chance. If you are a hunter, you are trying to kill something. Somedays, you may not put in the effort that is required, but you are still pursuing these animals with a goal of killing one. Not that this doesnt mean you cant enjoy yourself with out killing one.. But still you must kill sometimes in order to have hunted.
If not.. Leave the gun at home and go for a hike.

However if we continue with such silly suggestions as I have read in the above 30 some pages.. I am sure we will be raising the next generation of world class "HIKERS"

But it's begining to sound like the idea that was floated will soon be gone.

Jamie

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Show us how it wont end up just like every other zone out there!!

You say that like it would be a bad thing.

Sorry I used the word "big" when I should have said "mature".

Sheep numbers are stable. Hunter numbers are stable. Not enough "mature" rams for SG.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Jamie

No.. You are wrong.
To each and every "Hunter" you must have at least a chance. If you are a hunter, you are trying to kill something. Somedays, you may not put in the effort that is required, but you are still pursuing these animals with a goal of killing one. Not that this doesnt mean you cant enjoy yourself with out killing one.. But still you must kill sometimes in order to have hunted.
If not.. Leave the gun at home and go for a hike.

However if we continue with such silly suggestions as I have read in the above 30 some pages.. I am sure we will be raising the next generation of world class "HIKERS"

But it's begining to sound like the idea that was floated will soon be gone.

Jamie

And just like people have stated there is more to hunt out there than just sheep!! If guys think its good to shoot sheep every two years thats there right. If I dont agree thats mine!! I gave an option that left everyone hunting with no wait periods,no size changes or draws but every one said they arent capable of aging a rams. I said a wait or draw would also work but didnt say it was the best idea.
Most guys here arent talking about the oppertunity to"HUNT" sheep they are talking the oppertunity to shoot what ever they want every couple years. If you wanna hunt every year maybe you should be a little more selective. If it goes to a draw we wont have a choice.

These have all been brought up as alternatives to the original thread... SHEEP ON DRAW!!!!!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Not enough "mature" rams for SG.

Exactly and since when has having an opinion been wrong!! Because I dont share the same opinion as you guys!!
Obviously the vast majority want to hunt older and often bigger rams as 2000 buy a geneal tag to hunt just sheep and over 7000 put in draws to get better oppertunites. Seems to me the guys that want to hunt everything in general areas(you guys) are the minority!!!!!!!!

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think we are all for a limited draw in these zones just not a general season. And not like some other draws where they get carried away with the numbers of tags issued.

You know your ability to comprehend what is written and your propensity to fly off the handle sniping at anyone and anything does nothing to make intelligent and useful discussion.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you having an opinion, and I don't mind at all if it is different than mine. I disagreed with you speaking as though your opinion was that of everyone. Don't try to make yourself out bigger than you are.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Don't try to make yourself out bigger than you are.

I think that there are a few guys(probably myself) including the poster that this pertains to.

I speak my opinion and it is the opinion of a few, you speak your opinion and that is of a few.

And your opinion on me isnt the opinion of everyone its just your opinion so ill take the source of where it is comming from and pay it little heed! I came back to this thread with an open mind and have tried to change a bit. Im not gunna change my stance no matter how much you guys trash me(and especialy from someone that knows all they know from what the have googled!). I dont really care if guys think im yappy or a braggart!!! Im not changing how I feel. If I take so much away from these threads and cause all the distractions and trouble then take your thesaurus and pick out a couple flashy words and PM Rob and get rid of me. Till that time I will continue to stand by my thoughts and ideas.

I came back to try and discuss and avoid the fighting. Ive just said my ideas and you jump all over them thats cool as you probably dont know any better unless google said so!! And that there is my opinion on you! So now both of our opinions are out there!!

[Vindalbakken]

"You googled it."

That is a pretty good refute for facts.

I don't rightly recall ever speaking for anyone but myself.

I have never had any pretense that someone should be able to change your mind. I already conceded the sky is red.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

"You googled it."

That is a pretty good refute for facts.

I don't rightly recall ever speaking for anyone but myself.

I have never had any pretense that someone should be able to change your mind. I already conceded the sky is red.

Ya 90% of what I state is from what I have seen first hand in the areas I go on a regular basis and that is when you guys say im bragging or beating my chest. It doesnt matter what I say you guys will be on me. I have stood agianst you all since the day ive been here and that painted a target on me.

You quote studies and info that is someone elses opinion based on what they have seen. At least I use my own ideas and thoughts on subjects!! To me you are just a follower that hasnt got his own ideas. If so state how you have seen that numbers are ok and that there are enough mature rams out there and such.
Anyways im done with this discussion. I get it that you dont think much of me and I probably think less of you. Lord knows I aint gunna loose sleep over it.

[Vindalbakken]

The only thing I don't think much of is the fact that you are willing to sacrifice the opportunity for the general hunting public to experience sheep hunting in Alberta with a reasonable chance of success so that a few sheep hunters can have a greater chance of success at larger, more mature sheep heads. Most notable among those who stand to benefit from such changes are special interest, for profit groups and individuals at the expense of the resident hunter opportunity.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Im not gunna get in an argument.

X

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

X

Ya I know buffalo trying to tone it down a little.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

The only thing I don't think much of is the fact that you are willing to sacrifice the opportunity for the general hunting public to experience sheep hunting in Alberta with a reasonable chance of success so that a few sheep hunters can have a greater chance of success at larger, more mature sheep heads. Most notable among those who stand to benefit from such changes are special interest, for profit groups and individuals at the expense of the resident hunter opportunity.

Why do you keep talking about larger!! Just because a person wants to see a little more age on the rams you keep jumping on the size. Age doesnt always affect size in bighorn sheep. Id think a scholar such as your self would know this.
My suggestion has little if no effect on oppertunity esecially as you guys keep saying there are enough older rams out there. If thats the case an age restriction wouldnt decrease oppertunity. There are a few issues in B.C about the age restrictions but more education could turn that around. Yet again this is just my opinion.
As far as draws and waits, I just said how I thought it could work not that I wanted them.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ya I know buffalo trying to tone it down a little.

Try removing the ! from your keyboard.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Try removing the ! from your keyboard.

ill see what I can do.
SG

[Bowhunter]

Originally Posted by single malt

hi gary (from the aba?),

i believe the point being made was that a lot of the organizations on this stakeholder group do not represent the resident hunter. (other than afga and aba)

i guess we agree that virtually all groups that i mentioned do represent hunters...so what more do you expect. Without question, the individuals(volunteers) involved in driving those groups over many years are directly responsible for the outstanding opportunities we all enjoy in alberta. I invite anyone here to examine the opportunities elsewhere in canada and in the us. In doing so, you will soon see that we are extremely lucky to have what we have. Further, the alberta outdoor coalition, made up of all outdoor user groups, has made huge inroads with government to ensure that our collective voice is heard. To your point, do you expect government to only listen to hunters....so of course other interest groups will be involved. The good thing is, afga, aba, hft, aheia, wild sheep and apos have the numbers and therefore the clout to fight the naysayers.

the comment made in regards to hunting for tomorrow is simply the truth as the person in charge of hft is both in the outfitting industry and on the board of directors of apos. Why is it negative to state the facts?

the statement you made is the truth however the context in which you made it, totally discounts all of the great work she has done to protect hunting, advance hunting and get youth involved in hunting(our future). If you have negative thoughts about outfitting, i don't understand it but you're certainly entitled to have it. Making an inference that kelly is not for hunting, because of her other affiliations, demonstrates that you are ill-informed and you did not research her contributions before you made your inference. Moreover, it also tells us that you have stereotyped all outfitters and painted them with the same brush.

[/quote]

Originally Posted by setterman

hi gary, first of all, i know kelly semple and consider her a friend. I have seen first hand what she has done for hunting so i don't need you to tell me.
i'm glad that you appreciate what she has done...she is a class act.
my issue is this. If you look closely at some of the stakeholders listed above( and others) it is very clearly shown that apos has its fingers in many of the hunting related organizations.
as stated above, like it or not, outfitters are stakeholders in the outdoors. Thank goodness there are good ones like kelly and ryk. for example - aba- the former president of apos is a sitting member of your executive. There are many more example easily researched onliine.
i don't know what you're saying by that statement. Are you attacking the aba now. First, ryk is not on the executive of the aba. He remains involved on the sidelines as a member and tabulates and hosts our game awards at the agm...so your research is flawed. On ryk, alberta bowhunters have much of what they have now as a direct result of ryk's work on the aba. Many hunters are indebted to his work.

do you think that a person linked to apos on all these staked holders boards/executive is a coincidence???
no, not at all, they are a bonafide stakeholder in huntingthey have their ear to the ground and hear things coming way before the average resident hunter.
i don't have any documentation to back this up but based on my involvement on the aba and aoc, that statement is false. Give credit to the leaders of the afga, aba, and the others. They know what's going on from the get go. Apos doesn't have a head start on any one group.
maybe this is an issue that many people prefered to keep in the dark, well not me. This is one of the reasons why a board like this is so important. Getting the facts out to the resident hunters. I am tired of this interconnected web of organizations influencing our hunting rights. you're right on the mark there. Aoc and all the groups they represent have our backs. Get involved...you'll see. cheers sm

BTW....sorry I didn't respond in turn...

Gary McCartney

[Bowhunter]

Oh...one more thing.....has anyone on here that is bashing outfitters ever left Alberta and used the services of an outfitter or guide.....just a question......perhaps there is some hypocracy goin on

[Hagar]

I was talking with a friend about this the other day and he brought up another point which I have noticed is hard talked about.This friend is not a hunter but is not against hunting ,it's just not his thing.Any way the point is we are discussing these possible changes,what we want,what we don't want,but seem to leave out that any other type of non-hunting group should have any say in how sheep,or any other wildlife,are managed.These animals belong to all Albertain's and not just hunters.

Granted they may be just "tree-huggers" but do they not have the right to see wildlife as well.There are times when I hate them but they are still Albertain's.Not that I am standing up for them,just one more thing to think about.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Why do you keep talking about larger!! Just because a person wants to see a little more age on the rams you keep jumping on the size. Age doesnt always affect size in bighorn sheep. Id think a scholar such as your self would know this.
My suggestion has little if no effect on oppertunity esecially as you guys keep saying there are enough older rams out there. If thats the case an age restriction wouldnt decrease oppertunity. There are a few issues in B.C about the age restrictions but more education could turn that around. Yet again this is just my opinion.
As far as draws and waits, I just said how I thought it could work not that I wanted them.

Enough is a relative term. Enough 8 year old rams that 180 people a year will harvest one? Do you think that is achievable?
What is the reason you would like to see more older rams on the mountain besides your personal sheep watching pleasure?
I would certainly like to see more 180 class Whitetails in the province as well. Does that mean I should make a fuss at every post-season meeting that there simply are not enough Whitetails to go around and that perhaps we should consider putting them on a restricted harvest so they will mature a little more? If you think it sounds foolish for Whitetail deer, think about how it sounds for Sheep.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I was talking with a friend about this the other day and he brought up another point which I have noticed is hard talked about.This friend is not a hunter but is not against hunting ,it's just not his thing.Any way the point is we are discussing these possible changes,what we want,what we don't want,but seem to leave out that any other type of non-hunting group should have any say in how sheep,or any other wildlife,are managed.These animals belong to all Albertain's and not just hunters.

Granted they may be just "tree-huggers" but do they not have the right to see wildlife as well.There are times when I hate them but they are still Albertain's.Not that I am standing up for them,just one more thing to think about.

That's what parks are for, and there's already plenty of those. Lots of sheep standing on the highway as you drive through Banff or Jasper.

[Hagar]

So you are saying that the parks are the only places non hunters can go to see wildlife and don't belong anywhere else in Alberta?

[ishootbambi]

so you are equating an 8 year old ram to a 180 whitetail???? sorry, not the same. some are asking for more mature rams, not book rams. as for whitetails, there are plenty of mature bucks. they dont all make B&C either.

[albertadave]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that the parks are a really good place for them to go look at animals, especially in hunting season, and unless they are part of the process ie buying licences and tags, harvesting animals, contributing to FNAWS, DU, ect., volunteering their time (like many hunters do) ect., they should have little or no say as to how our wildlife is managed.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

so you are equating an 8 year old ram to a 180 whitetail???? sorry, not the same. some are asking for more mature rams, not book rams. as for whitetails, there are plenty of mature bucks. they dont all make B&C either.

Some people have a real hard time differentiating between maturity and score or horn size.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter

i guess we agree that virtually all groups that i mentioned do represent hunters...so what more do you expect. Without question, the individuals(volunteers) involved in driving those groups over many years are directly responsible for the outstanding opportunities we all enjoy in alberta. I invite anyone here to examine the opportunities elsewhere in canada and in the us. In doing so, you will soon see that we are extremely lucky to have what we have. Further, the alberta outdoor coalition, made up of all outdoor user groups, has made huge inroads with government to ensure that our collective voice is heard. To your point, do you expect government to only listen to hunters....so of course other interest groups will be involved. The good thing is, afga, aba, hft, aheia, wild sheep and apos have the numbers and therefore the clout to fight the naysayers.

the statement you made is the truth however the context in which you made it, totally discounts all of the great work she has done to protect hunting, advance hunting and get youth involved in hunting(our future). If you have negative thoughts about outfitting, i don't understand it but you're certainly entitled to have it. Making an inference that kelly is not for hunting, because of her other affiliations, demonstrates that you are ill-informed and you did not research her contributions before you made your inference. Moreover, it also tells us that you have stereotyped all outfitters and painted them with the same brush.

I am not sure why you are giving me a lecture concerning our wildlife working groups. I have spent my adult life working for and volunteering with these stakeholders. I am currently a member of multiple organizations in these groups and am also currently sitting on a wildlife executive. I also personally know and respect Kelly as well as many other people within these organizations. (I also have many immediate family members who have also worked with these organizations and within all levels of government) Please don’t speak to me as if I am not informed. It is because I am informed that I fully understand the workings within these organizations and that I have legitimate concerns.

I am not in any way discounting the significant or amazing work us volunteers do. We work very hard to perpetuate our hunting beliefs and traditions.

However, this does not absolve APOS from having a disproportionate influence with our government and within these working groups. Or are you honestly trying to tell me, someone who is informed, that they don’t? Please don’t try and cloud the issue by talking about all the good things our organizations do as if this is justification for disproportionate representation and influence.

Single Malt

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Some people have a real hard time differentiating between maturity and score or horn size.

Ok.. SO what is the big deal about maturity?
Do the Ewes not breed with Rams that are younger than say 5??

I ask becouse I really dont know.

Jamie

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Cadomin is a completely artificial situation if you understood what you were talking about you would realize why you can't begin to compare these two situations.

No 209 I think you dont.they are the same thing protectect areas period.

Also you said people like me. What do you mean by that????

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ok.. SO what is the big deal about maturity?
Do the Ewes not breed with Rams that are younger than say 5??

I ask becouse I really dont know.

Jamie

From what I have seen the most mature rams in the herd do the majority of the breeding. Some young rams do sneak in and breed the odd ewe. Ewes ive watched in person and on videos seem to try and not let the younger rams breed.
If the oldest sheep you have is 5 then that is what is breeding if the ewes let them. Mid novmber this year hunting moose i watched a ram just under legal(4 1/2 to 5 1/2) with 10 ewes and he was doing his best to breed them for a few days and not one would have anything to do with him. Did these ewes get bred? Who knows for sure.
This is just my personal observations though and im sure some one will show some study on it to proove some point.

[noneck180]

you guys still arguing about sheep,, thank god the only sheep we have in Sask, are good live bait for coyotes