Important information and Actions Required

[Stinky Coyote]

back to the training wheels and when they wanted to come join the party then....so argument brought up its not the same....sure it is, okay, they both draw and hold while game is at hand....but running cams with let-offs, then add the trigger (sorry...i mean...release) and the peep (rear sight) and then the pins (front sights...and for long range work ta boot) and all thats changing now is throwing a stock on one, turning the limbs on side and shortening them up but making them way stouter to compensate for the short power stroke and therefore harder to cock making all the really hot ones hand crank only (read....holy SLOW batman) what the crossbow does to a compound for change is moot, stats show that afield, you gain a couple little things you can do with one that you can't do with the other....they both have about the same amount of pros/cons on how they work afield and again...harvest stats show that.....just another bow that we are missing out on

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by JustinC

do you bow hunt? or are you waiting to go buy a crossbow? be honest.

hey, leave the guy alone, i need all the friends i can get ok

[Stinky Coyote]

now i risk losing some sleep over this.....and thats unacceptable...see ya in the mornin boys

[Knownonscents]

Form filled and faxed. Hopefully enough of us voice our opinion and not get these crossbows aloud in our archery season.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

hey, leave the guy alone, i need all the friends i can get ok

Just a question that is all.


Sleep I wish you luck on that since you have kids.I do as well and sleep is a thing of the past.

[ishootbambi]

well, the facts have been presented in at least 4 threads recently. if we leave out the opinion and emotion and self serving rhetoric, the facts presented are: the effective range of crosswbows are pretty well equal to that of compounds. in other jurisdictions that allow corssbow use, the success rates are pretty well equal. the list of advantages of a crossbow are pretty well equalled out by the disadvantages. thats the facts. the rest is opinion. plain and simple.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

well, the facts have been presented in at least 4 threads recently. if we leave out the opinion and emotion and self serving rhetoric, the facts presented are: the effective range of crosswbows are pretty well equal to that of compounds. in other jurisdictions that allow corssbow use, the success rates are pretty well equal. the list of advantages of a crossbow are pretty well equalled out by the disadvantages. thats the facts. the rest is opinion. plain and simple.

Why is it?does not matter what we talk about on here we have to change it for everybody else.Soon we are going to be able to drive arond shoot out of the back of the truck with a machine gun.Also hunt all year after we get drawn after we change the draws back to the old way where no one ever draws a tag. Sounds good to me I will be beside packhunter and moving some where else cause here will be ruined.Sask for me bigger muledeer

Not picking on you either just saying.

[gman1978]

I can picture this now in my neck of the woods. Muzzleloader guy. Driving around with the brand new shiny muzzleloader, ready to strike. Happy that he can get out in october for the early hunt, hoping that the big old mule buck is just standing there 200 yards off the road so he can try out the nice new smoke pole, They shoot them at this range on wild tv so why can't I, "Nebraska has a muzzleloader season so why can't good old Alberta" And then there would be cross bow guy. He is going to try spot and stock, to heck with the tree stands because they are for stupid bow hunters and besides that new xbow is good for 70 yards plus. He is going to see what it can do. I am really sorry if I am am playing in to stereotypes, but I really do fear this if these new rules do come in to play, this is what is going to happen. I just want what is best for our wildlife and our great sport of hunting. I think we are so blessed with some of the greatest hunting in the world here in Alberta, Why would we want to mess around with it?

[ishootbambi]

thats another opinion justin, and you are entitled to it. change happens all the time, sometimes good and sometimes bad, depending on your perspective. what about all the other guys out there who want this change. in their opinion this looks pretty good.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by gman1978

I can picture this now in my neck of the woods. Muzzleloader guy. Driving around with the brand new shiny muzzleloader, ready to strike. Happy that he can get out in october for the early hunt, hoping that the big old mule buck is just standing there 200 yards off the road so he can try out the nice new smoke pole, They shoot them at this range on wild tv so why can't I, "Nebraska has a muzzleloader season so why can't good old Alberta" And then there would be cross bow guy. He is going to try spot and stock, to heck with the tree stands because they are for stupid bow hunters and besides that new xbow is good for 70 yards plus. He is going to see what it can do. I am really sorry if I am am playing in to stereotypes, but I really do fear this if these new rules do come in to play, this is what is going to happen. I just want what is best for our wildlife and our great sport of hunting. I think we are so blessed with some of the greatest hunting in the world here in Alberta, Why would we want to mess around with it?

well said.

[Rocks]

Well here's a couple more facts:

Anyone who wants to hunt with a crossbow can do so anytime they want during general season.

Crossbows in archery season will increase harvest numbers, and lead to general tags going on draw.

Increased harvest during bow season will likely lead to decreased allocations during general season.

Looking at those it seems things are pretty good the way they are right now.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

thats another opinion justin, and you are entitled to it. change happens all the time, sometimes good and sometimes bad, depending on your perspective. what about all the other guys out there who want this change. in their opinion this looks pretty good.

So was extra tags down your way for the last 5 years right. There are no big deer down there anymore.If so the are on land you cant hunt.same with cwd hunt more bad. we had just as good a sask for muledeer and know it is a joke.I fear all of this is in the same boat as all of that.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by JustinC

So was extra tags down your way for the last 5 years right. There are no big deer down there anymore.If so the are on land you cant hunt.same with cwd hunt more bad. we had just as good a sask for muledeer and know it is a joke.I fear all of this is in the same boat as all of that.

im not sure what you mean.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

im not sure what you mean.

All of what I posted above is what you are talking about CHANGE.... All of the change has cost us our great muledeer herds in alberta.Sunday hunting is a 50-50 for me but there is way more bad than good with allof the change other than our current draw system.The best in the world other than we know give out way to many tags for mule deer,moose, and elk.some of these should only be for residents and no outfitters.So I still think no to a xbow,draw changes.Leave alone what is not broken.other than lower tags in the whole province on draws.

[pottymouth]

[QUOTE=NFTrapper;554503]QUOTE]

Originally Posted by gallery

Thanks

Originally Posted by swiffer

?

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

!

Originally Posted by HerdBull

.

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

.

Originally Posted by russ

.

Originally Posted by JustinC

D

Originally Posted by diamonddave

:

Originally Posted by gman1978

.

Originally Posted by rielbowhunter

!

Originally Posted by packhuntr

.

Originally Posted by Knownonscents

:

[QUOTE=gman1978;556855]QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rocks;556863]QUOTE]

And Me makes about 17 ish, Responsible, educated adults who care about their sport, and I'm sure are doing there part in their circle of friends to stop the Xguns.


Rottie, AnglerAb, Stinky and anyone else who I usually over look..............The majority of your peers don't agree with you, your fighting a battle not for a specific group, cause it doesn't exist. Not for extra oppoturnity, because you still have the right to use a Xgun now. Your fighting for someone to fill there pockets and namely not your own. Your fighting a battle that only suppliers and goverment at the end will win.
And we as a hunting conglomerit will no doubt be left wondering why, and how did we go wrong.

I can't wait until the next weapon of choice comes out to replace Xguns and watch you guys try to defend it. Especially if it's lasers!!!

[pottymouth]

The Chinese repeating crossbow (Chinese: 諸葛弩; pinyin: Zhūgě nǔ; Wade-Giles: Chu-ke nu; literally "Zhuge crossbow"; sometimes misspelled as Chu-ko-nu) is a device with a simple design. It is commonly believed to have been invented by the Chinese strategist Zhuge Liang (181-234 A.D.) of the Three Kingdoms period. However, this belief is false as the earliest repeating crossbows (found in Tomb 47 of Qinjiazui, Hubei province) were dated to the 4th century BC.[1] Zhuge Liang improved the design of the repeating crossbow, and made a version which shot two to three bolts at once and was used in massed formations, and for this reason, it was named after him.[citation needed]. Other repeating crossbows fired as many as 10 bolts before exhausting the magazine.[2]. The bolts of one magazine are fired are reloaded by simply pulling and pushing the lever back and forth.[3] Such action could fire 10 bolts in 15 seconds, after which a new magazine would be loaded.[4]. The repeating crossbow saw its last serious action in the China-Japan war of 1894-1895, where photographs show repeating crossbows as common weapons among Manchurian troops. The basic construction of this weapon has remained very much unchanged since its invention, making it one of the longest-lived mechanical weapons.


So if Xguns become legal, and most guys are taking the ar15, I'll go the traditional route, back to xguns roots.

I wonder what would stop people from developing something like this with new technology.......I guess the argument is you can fit 10 arrows on your bow as well!!!

[gube]

Originally Posted by Rocks

Well here's a couple more facts:

Anyone who wants to hunt with a crossbow can do so anytime they want during general season.

Crossbows in archery season will increase harvest numbers, and lead to general tags going on draw.

Increased harvest during bow season will likely lead to decreased allocations during general season.

Looking at those it seems things are pretty good the way they are right now.

I usually try not to get involved in emotional "frays", BUT as I see it, more negatives than positive will come out of this. The list above is pretty much a guarantee of the outcome if the crossbows were allowed to share the same season as BOWS. I hunt with bow AND rifle and have discussed with many from both avenues. I for one know a lot of rifle hunters that are waiting impatiently for the crossbow to be included with the bow season and if it does they will rush out and purchase one. It's funny they don't have one now because it can be used during the general season. Im sure there will be a handfull of "passionate" x-bow hunters (the ones that are already utilizing their use in the general season), but the majority will be a rush out and buy, then head out into the field with very little practice. The same kind of guys that don't even fire a box of shells prior to rifle season.

[AbAngler]

Herre is an article I found yesterday. Please read. Here are some real numbers that don't support your end of the world scenario.

http://hunting.about.com/od/arch/l/aa020716a.htm

I only had time to do a quick search over the lunch hour yesterday. I would like to see some FACTS supporting your arguments. Start with Provinces and States where xbows are allowed during bow season.

Hopefully I'll have time tonight to see what you come up with.

[Stinky Coyote]

lol, keep on scrambling for the next way to argue against the obvious

i'm pretty sure it wasn't a majority of folks the started the ball rolling on getting rid of slavery here either but i think everyone agrees in the end that it was a good thing lol, numbers on this thread can't really defy the logic, and since the good fight has already happened a few times on this forum already then most of guys with the crossbow have probably not even seen these threads so don't try and make it sound like there's only 3 people for this lol....that cracked me up pretty good....and they don't need to see these threads either since one read of the main crossbow thread will get everyone back up to speed....appears to be a new crop that want to vent and wtf am i doing oblidging this? must be a weird sort of fun for me....just trying to do my part i guess....stir stir stir

[calgarychef]

I have a x-gun but don't hunt with it and won't until I'm too old to draw my bow. I hunt with a longbow by the way, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from.

While I'm against the use of x-guns in bow season we might be able to pull together and make it a win win situation. How about if there were more archery only areas created throughout the province (yes even for the x-gun guys). In that case I'd be all over the idea. Wouldn't it be great for everyone to have an archery zone within their home range?

I'd also like to see restrictions placed on bow performance and keep it to say 300 fps. just like a compound is now. That would really help to level the playing field. With the way technology goes weapons keep getting more and more efficient and it really erodes the whole idea of "short range" hunting.

the chef

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

thats another opinion justin, and you are entitled to it. change happens all the time, sometimes good and sometimes bad, depending on your perspective. what about all the other guys out there who want this change. in their opinion this looks pretty good.

All the other guys??? What all three of you?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by AbAngler

Herre is an article I found yesterday. Please read. Here are some real numbers that don't support your end of the world scenario.

http://hunting.about.com/od/arch/l/aa020716a.htm

I only had time to do a quick search over the lunch hour yesterday. I would like to see some FACTS supporting your arguments. Start with Provinces and States where xbows are allowed during bow season.

Hopefully I'll have time tonight to see what you come up with.

His end of the senerio is: he knows some guys in his circle taht are waiting for Xguns to be allowed in archery season..................Your facts are someone elses written optinion, not the bible, The more I read your links the more I discover that most of your guys' idea's, are already written , Is there no thinking for yourself any more. Cut and Paste isn't always your friend.........Or wait, Xguns need no muscles to pull, and thus we continue the trend by using other peoples written documents, that you cut and paste. ......

[rottie]

Potty mouth
We all have different opinions on many different subjects which can be a good thing.
As much as I realize many members have way more experience with a bow than I,my opinion is the same as Stinky Coyote.
It would be interesting to here what some of the arguments where back when compound bows first hit the market,tradition archers probably gave some of the same arguments.
This being said I do agree with you that certain restricts would have to be placed on both crossbows and muzzle loaders to maintain the true intent of the primitive seasons

If you go back far enough sights on a bow didnt exist,wheels on a bow didnt exist,let off was unheard of,so it seems to me that your technology is fine but no elses is.

[BowhuntAB]

"I'd also like to see restrictions placed on bow performance and keep it to say 300 fps. "
Oh oh Chef! I think this may start a whirlwind!

As i'm sure you know most bows are rated over 300 FPS IBO these days.
Besides as much as i try, i can't hit poop with a stick bow! Though i keep trying. Maybe in another 10 years i'll be good enough with it to try to take an animal. Witch makes me wonder something. If all the guys in favour of XBow hunting did get there season. Do you think they would spend much time getting practiced and consistant with it? I doubt it. Archers have a different love of the sport. How many guys have you seen or heard of practicing everyday with a xbow? Plus, if they actually think XBows are bows then how much learning do you think is needed to understand range, arrow flight, wind, elevation, arrow drop and rise...how much practice is enough?
I have spent 10 years playing around with a stick bow and i'm not comfortable enough to hunt with it. So, 1 month with a crossbow? Is that enough? 1 year? 5 years? We all practice lots with our bows and most of us are very confident at the ranges we shoot. Think Xbow hunters would be as practiced as Bowhunters? I don't think so. We don't hear about Xbow 3D, or tournements do we? I really think most guys just want a longer season. So, if they can just buy a Xbow and shoot for a day or two before they head out they are happy! Otherwise, they would need to spend months and WAY more time getting dialed in with a bow! Besides, we all know that the second the rifle season opens they will all leave there Xbows behind and pick up the trusty 300. win mag.

So i guess my question is this, for the guys that say XBows are bows? How much practice time is needed to be good enough with a XBow to effectively and cleanly take game? I ask this because there has to be a reason why you guys want to hunt with a Xbow. I think its because you know its an easier tool to learn then real Bowhunting. So, i'm all ears. Whats the reason?

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I'd also like to see restrictions placed on bow performance and keep it to say 300 fps. just like a compound is now.

Where is it written that compound bows can't exceed 300 fps? Or am I reading this wrong?

[Rob Miskosky]

Looks like Bowhunt beat me to it.

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

hey, leave the guy alone, i need all the friends i can get ok

Stinky your attracting the wrong type of friends! I think you need to stay away from the darkside!

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by rottie

Potty mouth
We all have different opinions on many different subjects which can be a good thing.
As much as I realize many members have way more experience with a bow than I,my opinion is the same as Stinky Coyote.
It would be interesting to here what some of the arguments where back when compound bows first hit the market,tradition archers probably gave some of the same arguments.
This being said I do agree with you that certain restricts would have to be placed on both crossbows and muzzle loaders to maintain the true intent of the primitive seasons

If you go back far enough sights on a bow didnt exist,wheels on a bow didnt exist,let off was unheard of,so it seems to me that your technology is fine but no elses is.

Rottie,

One is comparing apples to apples the other is apples to a fruit basket, and I'm willing to show all the major diffrences in person if anyone wants.

[pottymouth]

Cause I know stinky and angler need some written documents that have been Cut and Pasted:

THE MULLANEY REPORT

Mr. Norb Mullaney, a professional engineer, is recognized as the leading authority on the physics of bows and endows. He states that "The hand held bow has one characteristic that distinguishes it from a crossbow or any type of firearm. The internal ballistics are a function of the shooter, his or her physical geometry and capabilities, shooting form, consistency and reaction to stress and trauma. In the crossbow and firearms, the internal ballistics are fixed. The action of the shooter in triggering a release of energy does nothing more than initiate a process that is consistent and repetitive. The hand held bow is different. Every action of the shooter contributes something either positive or negative to the interior ballistic process. As the interior ballistics vary, so do the exterior ballistics. Shooting the hand held bow and arrow is much more complicated than aiming a fixed system of ballistics and touching off the energy discharge. The total energy to draw, hold and release the bow must come directly and unassisted from the shooter's muscle power."

Copies of the Mullaney Report can be obtained from Mr. Mullaney, Engineer, Writer, 8425 North Greenvale Rd. Milwaukee W/ 53217


THE MARLOW REPORT

The technical information on equipment, contained in the "Marrow Report" was compiled by Roy S. Marlow and associates; titled "The Modem Hunting Crossbow-- A Study of it's Effectiveness Compared to the Hand Held Bow, 1 989".

Roy S. Marlow's areas of expertise are in design, theoretical analysis, and experimental evaluation of structural and mechanical systems. He holds a BS degree in aerospace engineering, an MS degree in mechanical engineering, and an MBA degree in management with a concentration in the management of research and development activities. He is a member of several national engineering societies and scholastic fraternities, is active on industrial committees, and task groups, and has written widely on technical subjects. In 1984 he received the Eugene W. Jacobs Award, which is awarded annually by the American Mechanical Engineers for technical excellence.

The Marlow Report concludes that the crossbow is technically superior to the modem hand held bow in almost every category of comparison. Further, the report concludes that the crossbow is more similar to a fireman than a hand held bow and that crossbows should not be considered as archery equipment. The crossbow which is always cocked, shoulder held, shot from a rest, fired by a trigger and has over twice the effective range of a bow is closer to being a firearm than a hand held bow.

Copy's of the Marrow Report can be obtained from RS Marlow & Associates, 12503 Chapel Bell, San Antonio, TX 78230

THE POPE & YOUNG CLUB

The Pope and Young Club (P&Y)was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

A hunting bow is defined as a longbow, recurve, or compound bow that is handheld and hand drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw, other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

The P&Y Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Furthermore, the club considers the use of the crossbow during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

Therefore the club recommends that the crossbow not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. The club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons and the use of the crossbow for hunting be restricted to firearms' seasons.

For more information contact the Pope & Young Club, 6471 Richard Avenue, Placerville, California 95667

CORNELL UNIVERSITY SURVEY

A 1995 survey titled Evaluation of Proposals For Change In Deer Hunting Regulation conducted by Cornell University at the request of the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation concluded that "hunters generally do not support the use of the crossbow."

When deer hunters were asked if they were in support of the use of crossbows during the regular firearms season three quarters of the respondents (75.5%) said their satisfaction would change. Of those a majority (68.2%) said their satisfaction would decrease if the crossbow were allowed and most of the hunters (87.1%) said their satisfaction would greatly decrease.

Copies of the survey can be obtained from the Human Dimensions Research Unit, Department of Natural Resources, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-3001


NATIONAL BOWHUNTER EDUCATION FOUNDATION

The International Bowhunter Education Program (IBEP) is a program designed and administered by the National Bowhunter Education Foundation (NBEF) to train Bowhunters throughout North America and the world.

The IBEP definition of a bow is one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position. Therefore, the crossbow is not a bow and should not be considered for use in any "bowhunting only" season.

The NBEF does not offer an educational program for any hunting device except the bow and arrow, and recommends that if states and provinces approve the crossbow for hunting that it's use be restricted to the firearms' seasons.

[rottie]

Sorry Potty
I can see some of your points and even understand your position,but with all due respect its just not mine,to each their own.
If a crossbw season was allowed I would use one to extend my outdoor expierinces,not my killing time.In a previous post someone else mentioned practice time,any tool I intend to hunt with would see exstensive practice just as my rifles do.This is the only way to learn not only ones abilities but also their limitations
I am one who falls between the cracks,I dont qualify for the disability permit yet do to injuries (car accident) I cant draw my bow enough ,to practice enough to feel justified or competent enough to actually draw and let loose on a living creature

I do agree however that before a season is implimented or crossbows are to be allowed input from all sides needs to be reviewed,and some form of limitations does need to be put in place.
The same would apply for a muzzleloader season,a true definition of what is going to be considered primitive would have to be defined

Hope some of this makes sense

Rottie