Administration of Trapping in Alberta

[BAbercrombie]

Just wanted to inject some factual information into the discussion regarding the licensing and administration of trapping in Alberta. The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year. The result will be a centralized system that provides fair and timely administration of licensing, permitting, RFMA renewals and transfers for trappers. The licensing component will be integrated with the existing RELM system and be a much easier and more reliable process for the trapping community. Policy development to support this process is ongoing and there will be broad based consultation with trappers before anything is finalized.
There will be increased fees for license renewals, however the final numbers will be based soley on the cost of administrative operations. The base cost of an RFMA renewal may reach the $300 mark but that number is soley based on the approved fee structure voted on by the ATA membership back in 2009. The fact is that we need to review the entire process over the next 6 months and then see where we are at. Resident licenses will also inclrease but will be somewhere around the $75 mark.
With the administrative change will come increased services and opportunity for all trappers, including more marketing options, professional development training and opportunities to participate in research and management programs that compensate trappers directly. The administrative function will be conducted at arms length from the A organization ensuring equal access and service. An ATA membership although beneficial will not be mandatory.
This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

[Marty S]

Welcome to the forum BAb! Do stay a while. I think Hunter Davey wants to debate you from time to time! or give you a scolding or other

Again I say make it happen, don't just watch it happen. Come to meetings and give your input, have your say. If you don't like things, just show up and speak your mind, there could be others who share your thots.

I guess it does cost money to run such programs, likely no more tax dollars covering the shortfalls.

Better in trapper's hands, not in treehugger influenced other's hands who need to please everybody to win votes.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by BAbercrombie

Just wanted to inject some factual information into the discussion regarding the licensing and administration of trapping in Alberta. The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year. The result will be a centralized system that provides fair and timely administration of licensing, permitting, RFMA renewals and transfers for trappers. The licensing component will be integrated with the existing RELM system and be a much easier and more reliable process for the trapping community. Policy development to support this process is ongoing and there will be broad based consultation with trappers before anything is finalized.
There will be increased fees for license renewals, however the final numbers will be based soley on the cost of administrative operations. The base cost of an RFMA renewal may reach the $300 mark but that number is soley based on the approved fee structure voted on by the ATA membership back in 2009. The fact is that we need to review the entire process over the next 6 months and then see where we are at. Resident licenses will also inclrease but will be somewhere around the $75 mark.
With the administrative change will come increased services and opportunity for all trappers, including more marketing options, professional development training and opportunities to participate in research and management programs that compensate trappers directly. The administrative function will be conducted at arms length from the A organization ensuring equal access and service. An ATA membership although beneficial will not be mandatory.
This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

You've already came to an agreement with the AEP and then you state that consultation with Trappers will be broad based, open and transparent? That ship has already sailed. Once again the ATA has made deals with AEP behind Trapper's backs and only came clean after what you are doing was discovered.

What do you guys do, stay awake at night dreaming up ways to build your empire and generate more revenue? I can currently walk into a F&W office, pay $20, and walk out with my Resident Trapping License. Next year they plan on providing it online just like hunting and fishing licenses. How much easier and more reliable can it be for an extra $55 every year?

Discussing anything with you after you've already made the deal with AEP is a total waste of time. The ONLY way that anyone's voice will be heard is expressing your concerns directly to the Minister of Environment and Parks, the Honorable Jason Nixon at aep.minister@gov.ab.ca.

This is a perfect example of why Trappers like me will never support the ATA and they'll never get my $50 membership fee. At least I can put that money towards the $80 Mandatory Snaring course that they are fighting for or the $75 licensing fees per year that they want to bring in.

[bushbug]

Problem with the ATA is if you disagree with their plans they really dont want to hear what you have to say. Our local was told to be quiet and not make waves by one of our zone directors. So much for joining in on the discussions.

[Redhorse Ranch]

Seventy five bucks so a school kid can catch a few muskrats. If he can afford the three day course to qualify in the first place.

[trapperdodge]

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

Yeah just look at how good works with their self governing.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

This is EXACTLY why the ATA should NEVER be allowed to self govern. I think that having the ability to create additional revenue through more mandatory courses and workshops is likely their end game. That's a HUGE conflict of interest right there.

Could you imagine the ATA deciding what trapping courses and workshops should be mandatory AND deciding on what they cost? Oh, and while we're at it, why not make them and the Standard Trapping course mandatory to attend every 5 years or so?

WRT your comparison of real estate agents, insurance brokers and teachers to Trappers. I've heard that ridiculous argument presented by ATA people before. Trappers have no where even remotely close to the amount of ever changing regulations, etc to deal with as those professionals. Unless you are suggesting that Trappers should have years of university training, I think that a better comparison would be with lobster fisherman, lumberjacks, carpenters, etc......but they wouldn't fit with your narrative.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by BAbercrombie

There will be increased fees for license renewals, however the final numbers will be based soley on the cost of administrative operations. The base cost of an RFMA renewal may reach the $300 mark but that number is soley based on the approved fee structure voted on by the ATA membership back in 2009. The fact is that we need to review the entire process over the next 6 months and then see where we are at. Resident licenses will also inclrease but will be somewhere around the $75 mark.

You say one thing on this forum and later say this on another forum:

“we don’t know the cost cog licenses yet until we have a firm grasp of the current government program”.

Just be upfront and let Trappers decide.

[sourdough doug]

Should this fee get to the $300 vicinity, it would be very interesting to know how those that "condone" this increase are able to justify it...All we have to do is take a look at their "trapping operations", in some instances, to realize there is more under the pile of fur, than meets the eye.. Maybe for the same reason why some politicians have not released their tax info....maybe....????

[HunterDave]

I have a little spare time today so I think that I'll send an email to the Minister of Environment and Parks, the Honorable Jason Nixon at aep.minister@gov.ab.ca and CC my MLA to express my disappointment with the ATA trying to take over the licensing and jacking up the cost.

If you want to have a voice on this issue I'd suggest that you do the same. I'm not about to hand over my hard earned money to the ATA year after year without at least trying to stop it from happening. If that's what you want to do then doing nothing is the right way to go about it.

[Trappingman]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I have a little spare time today so I think that I'll send an email to the Minister of Environment and Parks, the Honorable Jason Nixon at aep.minister@gov.ab.ca and CC my MLA to express my disappointment with the ATA trying to take over the licensing and jacking up the cost.

If you want to have a voice on this issue I'd suggest that you do the same. I'm not about to hand over my hard earned money to the ATA year after year without at least trying to stop it from happening. If that's what you want to do then doing nothing is the right way to go about it.

Do what ever you feel you need to do but we don’t need to hear about it every time you are going to write an email I don’t think most people care what you think, I am going to go to the meetings and voice my displeasure about the proposed increases, your little vendetta against the ata is getting real old.

[TrapperMike]

Maybe they should make it a priority that all Alberta trappers should be members of the ATA. It could be a part of your license fee.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Trappingman

Do what ever you feel you need to do but we don’t need to hear about it every time you are going to write an email I don’t think most people care what you think, I am going to go to the meetings and voice my displeasure about the proposed increases, your little vendetta against the ata is getting real old.

Who is it that you think cares about what you think? I certainly don’t.

And who do you imagine the “We” are that you think that you speak for? Using the word “We” instead of “I” is a sign of weakness.

What’s really nice to see is the ATA membership finally resisting the money grabbing madness. Too bad that it’s only because it effects them directly. Maybe it’ll give people pause to think what the ATA has been doing to new Trappers for years, but I doubt it.

[35 whelen]

I'm guessing nobody needs to trap to survive nowadays everything else cost too much just to get there to trap it's a dying tradition just like hunting.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[crazyfish]

I know a few old timers in my area that the trapping cash adds enough to his pension and old age benefit that it makes a difference . Going to 300$ certainly knocks the shine off the year end totals.

I paid my money , took the course , pay my year ATA support fee , have trapped every year since. I've been to the ATA AGM's when I wasn't stuck at work . I'm not a big fan of a 400% increase for my resident license.

I can't honestly say what an appropriate amount is for a yearly resident license , or an RFMA license. I'm sure there are some associated costs , maybe a new job position for getting all important/ required info to the GOV'T in a timely manner. I'd like to see how this translates into a fair balance for trappers and the ATA.

It looks like the staunch supporters of the ATA aren't happy with Dave questioning things , but I really do think that there are a lot of unanswered questions I'd like to see answered before I jump on the band wagon. I'm sure there are some $ savings for the gov't , and an arm's length association may make the gov'ts public relations issues easier to deal with .........pass it on to the ATA ! LOL

I'd certainly like to have babercombie come back to this and provide a little feedback and clear the air

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

I know a few old timers in my area that the trapping cash adds enough to his pension and old age benefit that it makes a difference . Going to 300$ certainly knocks the shine off the year end totals.

I paid my money , took the course , pay my year ATA support fee , have trapped every year since. I've been to the ATA AGM's when I wasn't stuck at work . I'm not a big fan of a 400% increase for my resident license.

I can't honestly say what an appropriate amount is for a yearly resident license , or an RFMA license. I'm sure there are some associated costs , maybe a new job position for getting all important/ required info to the GOV'T in a timely manner. I'd like to see how this translates into a fair balance for trappers and the ATA.

It looks like the staunch supporters of the ATA aren't happy with Dave questioning things , but I really do think that there are a lot of unanswered questions I'd like to see answered before I jump on the band wagon. I'm sure there are some $ savings for the gov't , and an arm's length association may make the gov'ts public relations issues easier to deal with .........pass it on to the ATA ! LOL

I'd certainly like to have babercombie come back to this and provide a little feedback and clear the air

If you look at the “staunch” supporters they all have one thing in common

[HunterDave]

If anyone wants to know the path that the ATA wants to take you need to get your hands on the, "Detailed Business Case for Alberta’s Trapping Program"......and the the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the ATA and AEP would help clarify things as well. These should be made available to ATA members but I didn't have any luck with getting my hands on either of them when I was a member. There was always an excuse about them being re-written, etc.

Although I haven't read either document I am aware of some of the contents of the Business Case. The contents of the document deals with RFMA's NOT Resident Trappers. So, where is this increase in Resident Trapper's licensing coming from? Never mind, I already know.

I'm going to guess that if the ATA is going to include licensing for Resident Trappers, what applies to RFMA Trappers will also apply to Resident Trappers.

The Business Case.....

- Annual submission of an RFMA plan

- Fur harvest records must be submitted each year along with fur receipts/returns as well.

- identifies the minimum standards by which a trapper would have to abide to retain his “active” status.

- Trappers will also be required to maintain a “minimum level of competency” that includes upgraded training

- The ATA would have the ability to remove delinquent RFMA holders and those who use traplines for purposes other than trapping. Trappers that failed to meet those standards would “be ineligible to hold a license”.

Anyone remember what the Bios inexplicably came up with "right out of the blue" with all the mandatory courses, fur receipts, etc in order to take over an RFMA? Sound similar?

The increase in cost for trapping licenses, although concerning, is merely the tip of the iceberg. The REAL money lies with the ATA being able to define what courses are mandatory to take in order to keep your license/trapline, how often you have to take them AND setting the prices for them. If you don't, you lose your license and/or trapline. That sounds a lot like extortion to me......pay me or you're hooped.

Don't count on the ATA membership to quash this because some of them will undoubtedly go along with this nonsense. Take the time to write the Minister and let him know what your thoughts are about the ATA taking over the licensing and jacking up the cost. There's a lot more at stake than just $55 extra per year.

[dugh]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a problem with that business case.
To me trapping is a form of conservation and seeing a trapline used for trapping is a good thing. There is no status quo, move forward or languish .
Thank for listening. Stay safe.
Doug

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by BAbercrombie

This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

Three months later and still absolutely nothing wrt this on the ATA website. There never was anything on there for Trappers to consult in the first place! Did anyone actually believe that the ATA would keep their membership informed let alone any other Alberta Trappers?

Same old ATA. React with empty platitudes when they are found out and then hope that Trappers forget and the story fades away until it’s too late to do anything about it.

Say, how’s that Mandatory Snaring course coming that you lobbied AEP for behind your membership’s backs?

If you haven't done so already you ought to let the Minister know what your thoughts are about this. Expressing your opinion to the President of the ATA will get you nowhere fast.

[natureman37]

Thanks for sharing