Elk Cartridges - Page 2

elk09 · #31 07-23-2016, 07:20 PM

shot elk with
300 win
30-06
7 mm rem
.280 rem
7mm mauser
.270

use a gun you can shoot well, use common sense for caliber size, buy a good controlled expansion bullet for adequate penetration, and shoot only at ranges you can make a clean kill at and then remember big bulls are tougher than smaller bulls and cows to kill and some dead elk can run a long ways especially downhill, I like the advice to take out a shoulder I usually try and do that... and keep shooting until four feet are sticking up,

Pathfinder76 · #32 07-23-2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

The same people seem to feel that lead core bullets suddenly dont work anymore and only a monometal will kill anything.

The same people huh?

Bergerboy · #33 07-23-2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

The same people huh?

Same ones bro, I kid you not!

fish_e_o · #34 07-23-2016, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

The same people seem to feel that lead core bullets suddenly dont work anymore and only a monometal will kill anything.

Well with the melting point of lead it's actually pretty true. Did you know that it was discovered by Hornady that bullets get really really hot from air resistance?

So hot that the lead is molten by the time it hits the animal and you might as well have used a water gun.

Copper has a much higher melting point

YMMV

Bergerboy · #35 07-23-2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

Well with the melting point of lead it's actually pretty true. Did you know that it was discovered by Hornady that bullets get really really hot from air resistance?

So hot that the lead is molten by the time it hits the animal and you might as well have used a water gun.

Copper has a much higher melting point

YMMV

Ahhhh. So use a monometal in a factory barrel but save the cup and cores for lapped barrels?

Norwest Alta · #36 07-23-2016, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leo

I've had the privelidge of hunting some really good elk country, I've shot more elk than likely most have, and no doubt, less than some. My experience with them has led me to be more positive about my shot placement. Elk are tough. Pound for pound as tough as any critter. But they are not bullet proof. I've had lung shot elk and moose run for close to 1/4 mile after the shot. They died alright but on their terms. One bull nearly went over a hell of a deep creek, I'm glad he didn't because I'd still be down there trying to get him out! Saying that, I decided a few years back to try and take out at least 1 shoulder when shooting these critters. Especially when you're hunting them early in the year. I've spent hours looking for shot elk in the bush. I've lost one because the wound channel sealed up on me after a couple hundred yards. My minimum for elk is a .277 caliber, well constructed 130 grain bullet. Sure lesser cartridges will get it done, but I know this one will at most any shot angle, at most sensible ranges.

I agree with this 99% . I'm not a 270 guy.

Rio56 · #37 07-23-2016, 07:36 PM

bonded lead and monometal bullets have increased all calibers capabilities ....

Bushrat · #38 07-23-2016, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lannie

Its a legal shot or it isn't. No gray area to me...Want to take the chance of not going home with the meat...only for the guy with his finger on the trigger to decide.

Any shot is legal as long as you have the tag, seasons on, and it's shooting hours. Just because a shot is legal doesn't mean it should be taken, are you saying you will shoot at a legal animal even if your pretty sure you won't hit it just on the off chance you might.

Bergerboy · #39 07-23-2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rio56

bonded lead and monometal bullets have increased all calibers capabilities .... any one wanting to use and go back to the cup and core .. have at er

I personally think the bullet has to be matched to the game and the velocity of the cartridge. Push any lead core bullet too fast and it comes apart too fast and doesnt do its job. Allow a mono to fall out of its design velocity range and it pencils in and out. I use Bergers on deer and moose and they die very fast. Bonded bullets for elk. I stay away from Barnes as I am a big believer in sectional density and I hate the copper fouling.

Rio56 · #40 07-23-2016, 07:50 PM

Back to "shot placement" .. I see it as the smaller the cartridge and caliber the smaller the window for the perfect shot placement ... The smaller calibers are fun to shoot but the further the elk from the end of the barrel the shot placement is your only option , take it or leave it sorta thing ... You may find the 338 class a little more effective at busting an elk's shoulder and making the shot a good placement when it's your only shot .... but not so with a 243...

xxclaro · #41 07-23-2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevens

i was a big shot placement guy until a few years ago. I was hunting with a buddy for moose he was using a 6mm another big shot placement guy. Well we see this nice bull he shoots once the bull takes off headed downhill from where we needed him to go and right towards the thickest nasty mess he shoots again certainly going to drop now nope right down the hill into a mess. So we give him time my buddy felt like his shots were good. So we go look for this bull finally find him but he is standing there looking at us about 15 yards away in this thick willow patch obviously not in good shape but still hanging on to life. My buddy shoots him right between the eyes he tips over backwards then gets back up the bullet never fully penetrated his skull. I felt bad for the moose he suffered and we suffered getting him out of that mess and up the hill again. I said never again. I hunt with a 300 wsm now why not I can handle the recoil and everything goes down and fast and if I ever need to shoot something in the head from 20 yards away it sure the hell will penetrate the skull. Yeah so no Alaskan brown bear hunts with a 243 and no cape buffalo moose elk or anything other than coyotes and gophers with a 6mm. In my opinion if I make those same shots with my 300 the moose might have went 20 yards maybe. I saw one animal suffer horribly because we didn't have enough gun never again.

If his bullet failed to penetrate the skull of a moose I'd say it was more of a case of not enough bullet. The .243 is a pretty capable round but with the wide variety of bullets you can chose in 6mm, you can get some very different results. I wouldn't choose it as my #1 for elk and moose but a good friend has one as his only rifle and when he got drawn for moose he asked me for bullet advice. He used a good 100gr bullet and dropped his bull very quickly. On the other hand,I dumped half a dozen 260gr Accubonds out of my .375 Ruger into the chest of a bull elk before he finally gave in. He didn't go but 10-15 yards, but he wasn't lying down either. If I had been in a situation like yours and was on a hillside, he may very well have travelled a good distance down hill. Is the .375 inadequate for elk? I'd say not, but sometimes they just don't want to fall, and I also learned that the Accubond is not a bullet I'll be using on elk again out oft this gun.

Salavee · #42 07-23-2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I have been told numerous times that the .303 British is minimal for deer , yet
Countless elk , moose , and dangerous Game overseas have fallen to it,
These days people seem to think that anything but big modern cartridges should be used " just in case" forgetting that a shot does not have to be taken if it s not optimal .
The cartridge should not be the main consideration, the shot shot be .
Cat

Not to take exception to those comments but great shot placement is kind of moot if there isn't some horsepower behind it. Seen it happen more than a few times with marginal cartridges.
Seems to me if we combine great shot placement with adequate horsepower we have a DRT situation almost every time.

Flight01 · #43 07-23-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I have been told numerous times that the .303 British is minimal for deer , yet
Countless elk , moose , and dangerous Game overseas have fallen to it,
These days people seem to think that anything but big modern cartridges should be used " just in case" forgetting that a shot does not have to be taken if it s not optimal .
The cartridge should not be the main consideration, the shot shot be .
Cat

Can't believe someone thinks the 303 is under gunned. Good ammo and a gun that shoots .... I'd easily call it a 300 yard moose and elk gun. Great black bear gun too.

Pathfinder76 · #44 07-23-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I personally think the bullet has to be matched to the game and the velocity of the cartridge. Push any lead core bullet too fast and it comes apart too fast and doesnt do its job. Allow a mono to fall out of its design velocity range and it pencils in and out. I use Bergers on deer and moose and they die very fast. Bonded bullets for elk. I stay away from Barnes as I am a big believer in sectional density and I hate the copper fouling.

Sectional density applies more to mono metal bullets than any lead core bullet. If you can even apply it at all.

Bergerboy · #45 07-23-2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

Not to take exception to those comments but great shot placement is kind of moot if there isn't some horsepower behind it. Seen it happen more than a few times with marginal cartridges.
Seems to me if we combine great shot placement with adequate horsepower we have a DRT situation almost every time.

Those must have been some long shots for a properly placed bullet to run out of diesel to do the job at hand.

Rio56 · #46 07-23-2016, 08:06 PM

.... elk are tough

Bergerboy · #47 07-23-2016, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Sectional density applies more to mono metal bullets than any lead core bullet. If you can even apply it at all.

Actually it applies equally to both. Its calculated from the bullet weight and the area of the bullet. With a certain twist rate, one is able to stabilize a heavier lead core bullet than a monometal thus being able to fling bullets with a higher sectional density.

Salavee · #48 07-23-2016, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Those must have been some long shots for a properly placed bullet to run out of diesel to do the job at hand.

Just a combination of incorrect shot placement, poor bullet performance and/or lack of sufficient terminal energy.. all fairly common occurrences.
Depending on the state of a game animals mind at the time ,correct shot placement can vary a lot as well. A boiler shot into a steamed up Bull Elk from a .243 for example at 150 yds is not a good choice. Taking the shoulders out is, but that's not an ideal job for a .243 in that situation. It is however, right on for a .30 cal or better. Just too many variables and often not a perfect set-up to be packing marginal calibers in Elk Country as I see it.

Bergerboy · #49 07-23-2016, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

Just a combination of incorrect shot placement, poor bullet performance and/or lack of sufficient terminal energy.. all fairly common occurrences.
Depending on the state of a game animals mind at the time ,correct shot placement can vary a lot as well. A boiler shot into a steamed up Bull Elk from a .243 for example at 150 yds is not a good choice. Taking the shoulders out is, but that's not an ideal job for a .243 in that situation. It is however, right on for a .30 cal or better. Just too many variables and often not a perfect set-up to be packing marginal calibers in Elk Country as I see it.

Cant argue with that.

Pathfinder76 · #50 07-23-2016, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Actually it applies equally to both. Its calculated from the bullet weight and the area of the bullet. With a certain twist rate, one is able to stabilize a heavier lead core bullet than a monometal thus being able to fling bullets with a higher sectional density.

It is a product of mass and diameter. One if not two of become completely different on impact. Useless.

Bergerboy · #51 07-23-2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It is a product of mass and diameter. One if not two of become completely different on impact. Useless.

That is correct my good man except for the part where you called it useless. The SD is a yardstick that can be used to evaluate penetration potentials.

Norwest Alta · #52 07-23-2016, 09:00 PM

Just a show of hands of the participants.

Who has shot more than one elk?

I've got a feeling many have read about shooting elk and few have shot elk.

I've shot a few using 30-06 with 165 Hornady btsp. They did the job but after switching to a 338 win mag with 185 Barnes ttsx I feel that the the elk I've shot haven't stood a chance.
I've shot a few animals and consider myself a above average shot but elk are by far the toughest tastiest animal on four legs that I've tangled with.

Pathfinder76 · #53 07-23-2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is correct my good man except for the part where you called it useless. The SD is a yardstick that can be used to evaluate penetration potentials.

It is absolutely useless. It measures a bullets ability to penetrate air and that is it. Measuring sectional density of an expanded projectile has more meaning. Cup and core bullets are all over the map. Mono metals not so much. Now the real reason heavier bullets penetrate farther has more to do with momentum and has little if nothing to do with the SD number on the side of the box.

Rio56 · #54 07-23-2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It is absolutely useless. It measures a bullets ability to penetrate air and that is it. Measuring sectional density of an expanded projectile has more meaning. Cup and core bullets are all over the map. Mono metals not so much. Now the real reason heavier bullets penetrate farther has more to do with momentum and has little if nothing to do with the SD number on the side of the box.

OK .. so what's SD vs BC .... all useless.. higher SD penetrates better

Bergerboy · #55 07-23-2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It is absolutely useless. It measures a bullets ability to penetrate air and that is it. Measuring sectional density of an expanded projectile has more meaning. Cup and core bullets are all over the map. Mono metals not so much. Now the real reason heavier bullets penetrate farther has more to do with momentum and has little if nothing to do with the SD number on the side of the box.

Ballistic coefficient is the number that reflects a bullets ability to penetrate air. Sectional density is completely different.

Rio56 · #56 07-23-2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Ballistic coefficient is the number that reflects a bullets ability to penetrate air. Sectional density is completely different.

I will agree on this one post of yours and that's it ......

Pathfinder76 · #57 07-23-2016, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Ballistic coefficient is the number that reflects a bullets ability to penetrate air. Sectional density is completely different.

I'm saying that air is the only thing a bullet goes through with a valid SD number.

Bergerboy · #58 07-23-2016, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

I'm saying that air is the only thing a bullet goes through with a valid SD number.

That is very true. Once it hits the animal the 2 variables change. Although it is the best unit that one can rely on to determine penetration.

Salavee · #59 07-23-2016, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It is absolutely useless. It measures a bullets ability to penetrate air and that is it. Measuring sectional density of an expanded projectile has more meaning. Cup and core bullets are all over the map. Mono metals not so much. Now the real reason heavier bullets penetrate farther has more to do with momentum and has little if nothing to do with the SD number on the side of the box.

Heavy bullets, SD, a bit of velocity and momentum are all bundled together aren't they? I'm told that momentum has more to do with penetration than velocity. Correct ?

Rio56 · #60 07-23-2016, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

Heavy bullets, SD, a bit of velocity and momentum are all bundled together aren't they? I'm told that momentum has more to do with penetration than velocity. Correct ?

there's no "replacement for displacement " ......