Best Dog for Pheasants - Lab or Pointer?

[ward]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

A Springer.

An excellent choice for pheasants.

[gitrdun]

It came to me as a total surprise that my Beagle might make a good pheasant hunter. I had no idea. But I may give it a try.

[ward]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

It came to me as a total surprise that my Beagle might make a good pheasant hunter. I had no idea. But I may give it a try.

Probably has a heck of a nose.

[alacringa]

V-dogs all the way. I love hunting upland over a pointing dog, and he's great on migratory, too.



And he's darn pretty.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

How cagey are released pheasants compared to wild ones? I’ve brought a couple house pet cowboy up kennel labs to the realease site and keep them within shooting range and they pin point, work and flush roosters with ease. Doesn’t seem like you need much of a dog to get it done? I’m sure we appear rough around around the edges to a experienced upland hunter.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by alacringa

V-dogs all the way. I love hunting upland over a pointing dog, and he's great on migratory, too.



And he's darn pretty.

Nice

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

How cagey are released pheasants compared to wild ones? I’ve brought a couple house pet cowboy up kennel labs to the realease site and keep them within shooting range and they pin point, work and flush roosters with ease. Doesn’t seem like you need much of a dog to get it done? I’m sure we appear rough around around the edges to a experienced upland hunter.

It varies greatly. Some release site birds just sit there, and some dogs even catch them. Some hop up in a tree and sit there. Some run until they are out of range and then flush. Some just run into the brush and get cover between you and them before they flush. Some stay in the heavy brush and run and run, and can actually lose a less experienced dog. Right after a release pretty much any dog makes it easy, but after a day or two of hunting since the last release, when the birds have been driven into the brush, a good dog can definitely make a huge difference. I am speaking about the sites where there is a lot of brush, I haven't hunted the sites that are pretty much wide open grassland.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It varies greatly. Some release site birds just sit there, and some dogs even catch them. Some hop up in a tree and sit there. Some run until they are out of range and then flush. Some just run into the brush and get cover between you and them before they flush. Some stay in the heavy brush and run and run, and can actually lose a less experienced dog. Right after a release pretty much any dog makes it easy, but after a day or two of hunting since the last release, when the birds have been driven into the brush, a good dog can definitely make a huge difference. I am speaking about the sites where there is a lot of brush, I haven't hunted the sites that are pretty much wide open grassland.

Ya seen all those scenarios. Walk away from anything that isn’t a get birdy, hunt and flush.

[covey ridge]

Born April 1st, she was called April Lark. We called her Tennile. When we were working it was just T. The first pair of pics was T at 4 months.

I think she was a great gun dog and a better friend. Just looking for these pictures and posting brings tear to my eyes. I have had a better trained dog but I have never had one with more heart and drive. I sure miss her.

[wwbirds]

Too many variables to answer this question. I have had potential buyers come looking at labs and goldens and steered them to a pointer. One was disabled and I could not see him keeping up to a flushing dog, loading his gun and firing at a rising rooster within range. I have seen so many variations in both labs and pointers that getting a quality one is half the battle with so many backyard breeders whose soul purpose is to produce puppies with little regard to field ability or health clearances. Seen several labs and goldens with no interest in birds, water and not really much "desire" to retrieve when it got to be work instead of the fun puppy retrieves.

Varies on how good of a trainer the individual is that is buying the dog for many just assume an electric collar will make up for the lack of time, training and knowledge.
Have seen pointers "blink" a dead bird lying in plain sight because they had no interest in a bird that is already dead. Have seen a few GSP's that live to retrieve waterfowl. I dont want a dog ranging 2-300 yards from me but many do feel covering large tracts of ground is efficient. I like retrievers that search every square foot of cover for a bird like a vacuum cleaner. Labs goldens and chessie generally handle cold water retrieves best. Pointers will probably find as many birds but if dropped in heavy cover (seen many cattail refusals) may or may not retrieve them. I have seen GWP so stubborn they hunted by themselves for themselves. I have seen Drahtaars that stayed under a 100 yards and genuinely seemed to be a partner with the hunter/owner.
Tollers came up and yes they were developed in Canada to "toll" birds to bring them within range. Never seen one finish a field trail and all I have seen are marginal to moderate ability hunters and retrievers. Cant pit a 35 pound toller against a 70 pound lab in a goose blind. Goldens generally have better noses than labs but the coat takes extra care and finding a good field golden can be challenging. having a back yard breeder tell you all labs can hunt and retrieve is generally a good indication to run away as fast as you can.

Sorry to write a book but the question cannot be answered with too many variables in both dogs and hunters.
Pick the best combination for your style from a reputable breeder with a written guarantee on health and suitabililty for purpose. Tell the breeder what you want they are in the best position to know their dogs capability and fitting into your home and hunting style.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Ya seen all those scenarios. Walk away from anything that isn’t a get birdy, hunt and flush.

So you walk away from anything but the simplest/easiest situation, and you still think that it doesn't take much of a dog? A good dog can help to succeed in the situations that aren't so simple/easy.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So you walk away from anything but the simplest/easiest situation, and you still think that it doesn't take much of a dog? A good dog can help to succeed in the situations that aren't so simple/easy.

The opposite actually.

[densa44]

WWbirds mentioned this in his text and it deserves much more comment IMO.

It means that the dog knows where the dead bird is but won't pick it up, some pointers, it is said "point dead" but don't retrieve.

This is a very big deal if you are a dog trainer! In heavy cover a trained dog will find a bird that you would never find and bring it to you. This is 1/2 of the dog work.

As has been stated many times so far, lots of dogs can find the birds, coyotes can and no one is training them. The issue is can the hunter get close enough for a shot? Thus a pointing dog or a fit hunter and a close working flusher. The second and equally important part of the dog's responsibility is finding the bird that the hunter has shot and bringing it straight back to the gunner. For dogs well bred for the work this is easy, for the other dogs some times impossible.

You don't want a dog that blinks birds for your hunting companion.

WWbirds is both a breeder and trainer, so he can add or subtract anything he wants.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by densa44

WWbirds mentioned this in his text and it deserves much more comment IMO.

It means that the dog knows where the dead bird is but won't pick it up, some pointers, it is said "point dead" but don't retrieve.

This is a very big deal if you are a dog trainer! In heavy cover a trained dog will find a bird that you would never find and bring it to you. This is 1/2 of the dog work.

As has been stated many times so far, lots of dogs can find the birds, coyotes can and no one is training them. The issue is can the hunter get close enough for a shot? Thus a pointing dog or a fit hunter and a close working flusher. The second and equally important part of the dog's responsibility is finding the bird that the hunter has shot and bringing it straight back to the gunner. For dogs well bred for the work this is easy, for the other dogs some times impossible.

You don't want a dog that blinks birds for your hunting companion.

WWbirds is both a breeder and trainer, so he can add or subtract anything he wants.

While acting as a gunner for our NAVHDA chapter, I have seen several dogs blink live birds as well. One that stands out was a 14 month old WPG from a reputable breeder in Montana, that blinked every bird that it detected. The owner never even noticed that the dog had detected the birds, but if you watched carefully, you could see the dog react momentarily when it detected each bird. The owners were not hunters, and had never intentionally exposed the dog to game birds before bringing it to do the NA test, and a couple of our very experienced members felt that the dogs training was responsible for the behavior. They felt that the owners may have actually conditioned the dog not to react naturally to the birds.

[tallieho]

Believe this or not my best pheasant dog was a Chesapeake.Toughest dog i have ever owned.When i hunted them ,we used a springer.The springer won't go into the heavy cover.The chessie loved this role,she knew the birds were in the heavy stuff.Another Really good dog was GWP,she was fabulous.Training is your part.The most important for you,is to check out the parents of your pup.NO show dog breeding.Labs imo,have lost allot of the hunting instinct thru show breeders.Go to some trials for Gun Dogs...

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

While acting as a gunner for our NAVHDA chapter, I have seen several dogs blink live birds as well. One that stands out was a 14 month old WPG from a reputable breeder in Montana, that blinked every bird that it detected. The owner never even noticed that the dog had detected the birds, but if you watched carefully, you could see the dog react momentarily when it detected each bird. The owners were not hunters, and had never intentionally exposed the dog to game birds before bringing it to do the NA test, and a couple of our very experienced members felt that the dogs training was responsible for the behavior. They felt that the owners may have actually conditioned the dog not to react naturally to the birds.

I am far from an expert but I have been told that nothing negative should happen in early training the involves birds or guns. It is hard to say exactly what it was but I would agree with those experienced members.

Blinking is hard to cure. A friend had a good hunting gsp that had qualified in several tests but he started to work on steady to shot for the next level. He asked me to shoot for him in a training situation. His dog blinked 5 straight bird plants. Never shot a single bird. He said his dog never blinked while hunting and in tests but only in training. The bird was smart enough to know training and was probably avoiding the steady to shot exercise and its corrections.

[Newellknik]

Is as has been said , there really is no Right dog ....
Most dog owners aren't as smart as that dog and are
Incapable of training said dog to be a complete Hunter .
I always suggest buy a 2 yr. old finished dog from a
reputable kennel . So if the pot is empty ,you only
One person to blame !

In the more popular breeds , decades of breeding to
instill in that animal a natural ability to do his job.
So simple so why are there so many screwed up
hunting dogs in the world ....Human foible
Untrained .

[calvin]

i will post some insight in which i am more comfortable in as I am in the cattle business. when i search out seed stock for my business I usually search out the people first. My initial reaction when meeting a breeder, appearance, handshake, condition of facilities are all looked at and i generally rely on first impression. The cattle i buy are usually standard breeds and honestly doesn't matter to me other than my goals in my choice of breed. You need to have a goal in mind in that if this is a pet first and hunting is a bonus, or if youre going to trials, or if you are going hardcore hunting. These 3 different goals may lead you to 3 different breeds of dog. My family are not dog breeders nor are we good trainers. i understand that and this is why i chose the breeder that we did as i felt comfortable for him to pick me a pup that he felt would live with us and be a proficient hunter. He had good breeding and the family raising them hunted these dogs and they were proven hunters. The rest was up to us. dogs are not plug in and play hunting items. you need to help them and understand as best you can what they are trying to tell you. you will need as much training as the pup. We have a GSP and if i had a do over i think i would have researched this breed a bit more as we found out he needed more attention than we were ready to invest. that however was a good decision on the back end as we have figured out he needs more activity and we did as well. we make time for him and we hunt him as much as we can. we did find out he isn't a good grouse dog for us as he ranges to far in the bush and we lose him. we took him pheasant hunting and we really like that as we are able to keep track of him easier in more open areas.
when we are buying bulls i may look at 15 to 20 different producers before i find a producer i can trust that will make good decisions when he is buying or raising his seed stock. if things don't add up, then move on. if i pay more then it usually allows that producer to go and look for even better bulls that i am able to source in the future. remember that often its the relationship between producer and seed stock provider that is the most important. One thing i may add is the bigger the buckle and hat the further i run. hope that helps.

[stob]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

It came to me as a total surprise that my Beagle might make a good pheasant hunter. I had no idea. But I may give it a try.

watched a guy run 3 beagles once and he got birds and WOW! could that guy run

[LCCFisherman]

Great info Gents!

[AndersonSkiTeam]

A good dog is a good dog no matter what the breed. My choice for style of hunting is pointing. I have two GWP's and they will go anywhere and retrieve anything. For me there is nothing better than having my dog lock up and then kick a bird out and have to wait for the bird to fly far enough away to shoot. A lab that won't stay close or a pointer that will break on birds is no fun for any hunter.

[M.C. Gusto]

There is no right answer to this. I have been running pointers with labs on pheasants here in AB for 20 years, and I couldn't say one is better than the other.
A good dog is a good dog.
One breed wont hit the rough stuff more than another, that comes from drive aka breeding.
Find the dog you like and find a real good breeder and go from there.

Someone mentioned Springers, they are awesome pheasant dogs also.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

There is no right answer to this. I have been running pointers with labs on pheasants here in AB for 20 years, and I couldn't say one is better than the other.
A good dog is a good dog.
One breed wont hit the rough stuff more than another, that comes from drive aka breeding.
Find the dog you like and find a real good breeder and go from there.

Someone mentioned Springers, they are awesome pheasant dogs also.

If all you are hunting is pheasant, then there is no better choice than a Springer. When God made pheasants, he made Springer's the same day. He smiled and said it is good. You want to smile watch a Springer get after a pheasant patch. Cannot help but smile at the enthusiasm and joy that is in this little dog brings to a hunt.

[wwbirds]

When I was too young to carry a gun yet chomping on the bit to go hunting my dutch neighbor up the street invited me to go out with him for cottontail rabbits or jacks in the country surrounding Galt (Cambridge) Ontario. Later when I could carry a shotgun his only instruction was not to shoot the beagles. We mostly hunted frozen cedar swamps for cottontails but occassionally he would put them into dry sloughs or grassy areas near the farmers woodlot. Recall him shooting quite a few pheasants over the years in such cover over beagles.

[elkhunter11]

Regardless of the breed, I found this entertaining.

[tatonka2]

There actually is an answer to this question. While pheasants can be killed over any well trained dog, regardless of the breed, the ultimate pheasant dog is a Field Bred Springer. A well trained Springer has no equal when it comes to pheasants. They'll hunt all upland birds, rabbits, and ducks but their specialty is Pheasants. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of many, many trainers, breeders, etc. Here's a brief summary on the Field Bred Springer and why they are the best when it comes to pheasants....

https://stonebrokekennels.wordpress....bred-springer/

[wwbirds]

Not even going to debate the abilities of a good springer they are phenomenal pheasant dogs along with many other breeds. Have to give you a rough time about using Bill Tarrant who was a writer not a trainer so he worked with knowledgeable trainers for many breeds. I call him a dog training "ghost" and add another less complementary word that starts with who and ends with re since he has never to my knowledge trained any dog but rather watched the various pros and has written many books about the process.
Here he recommends the best dog in the world "the lab"

https://books.google.ca/books/about/...AJ&redir_esc=y

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by tatonka2

There actually is an answer to this question. While pheasants can be killed over any well trained dog, regardless of the breed, the ultimate pheasant dog is a Field Bred Springer. A well trained Springer has no equal when it comes to pheasants. They'll hunt all upland birds, rabbits, and ducks but their specialty is Pheasants. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of many, many trainers, breeders, etc. Here's a brief summary on the Field Bred Springer and why they are the best when it comes to pheasants....

https://stonebrokekennels.wordpress....bred-springer/

You know what they say about opinions.

If we were to go by opinion, obviously the number one choice of hunters is the Labrador.

If we were to narrow the field and include only field bred "American" Labradors I think the contest would be much different. We just don't have easy access to quality field dogs here in this country.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Newellknik

Is as has been said , there really is no Right dog ....
Most dog owners aren't as smart as that dog and are
Incapable of training said dog to be a complete Hunter .
I always suggest buy a 2 yr. old finished dog from a
reputable kennel . So if the pot is empty ,you only
One person to blame !

In the more popular breeds , decades of breeding to
instill in that animal a natural ability to do his job.
So simple so why are there so many screwed up
hunting dogs in the world ....Human foible
Untrained .

One problem with buying a finished dog is still the handler that is incapable of training. If he/she is not as smart as the dog, the dog will become untrained pretty quick.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

One problem with buying a finished dog is still the handler that is incapable of training. If he/she is not as smart as the dog, the dog will become untrained pretty quick.

As well, some dogs advertised as being finished, may only be considered finished, by the people that trained them. I saw that situation first hand recently. The supposedly finished dog, only responded to pigeons in launchers, and did not respond properly to game birds..