need some small calibre suggestions

[JWCalgary]

Hello. I want to pick up a smaller calibre rifle, say in 223? Wanted suggestions on bolt action rifles that will deliver sub moa out as far as I can stretch. I figure I will primarily use the rifle for target at first but may move into smaller game later on with it. Already have a Sako in 308 and a Sauer in 300wm so looking for a different brand. Any thought out there. .. cooper? I dunno. Thanks people. How about calibre? Should I look at others?

[Dick284]

What's your budget?
Not only for the rifle, but for the optics.
In this game the optics could easily out price the rifle.
Do you reload?

[JWCalgary]

Originally Posted by Dick284

What's your budget?
Not only for the rifle, but for the optics.
In this game the optics could easily out price the rifle.
Do you reload?

I would say 2 to 3 k. Not a reloader yet but this could lead me to reload

[Dick284]

Get into reloading.
Buy a doner action, and have it built then.

[silver]

Prophet river has a nice line of Coopers along the wall, each rifle has a sample target with it, lists the load used. Price is about $2300 if I recall. Check out his website.

[north american hunter]

For that cash Id get a cooper and but a zeiss on it.

[TOG]

For that cash I'd get a savage and put a nightforce on it.

[KevGuy]

Originally Posted by TOG

For that cash I'd get a savage and put a nightforce on it.

Waste

[FallAirFever]

If you are looking at a 223 and stretching it out you will need to be shooting heavier bullets, 75gr plus. To do this you will need a certian twist bbl, off the top of my head. But if you do some googling you will find it. Getting into reloading will be very helpfull.

Good luck

[tikka250]

I just bought a savage mod 12 fcv in 223 and with the very brief reloading that i have done so far i have already managed to find a sub 1/2 inch load! and that was done with 5 shots instead of the usual 3 (would have been 6 if my shivering hadn't thrown off my last shot)
before that me and the roommate were just having fun shooting at distance and trying out the new scope's capabilities (nikon m223) and i was able to hit the 600 yard gong on a semi regular basis with factory fiocci.

so i would say before blowing your whole budget on a rifle take a look at whats around and see if you can find a slightly less expensive accurate rifle and use that extra cash for some quality glass and/or reloading equipment.

[elkhunter11]

For a smaller budget, I like Tikka. I have two heavy barreled T-3s, one in 223, and one in 6.5x55, that shoot sub moa to 550 yards. If your budget is larger, Sako and Cooper are good choices. For a scope, the Conquest HD5 is an excellent choice.

[north american hunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For a smaller budget, I like Tikka. I have two heavy barreled T-3s, one in 223, and one in 6.5x55, that shoot sub moa to 550 yards. If your budget is larger, Sako and Cooper are good choices. For a scope, the Conquest HD5 is an excellent choice.

Yup, I'd put a ziess hd5 for a scope.

[fatboyz]

I have a savage mod 12 VLP with 1:7 twist. I have a Sightron SII Bigsky on it. It's been bedded and has a single shot follower and that is the only mods from stock. I am shooting 69 gr Sierra Match kings from it out to 1000m. I'm not saying it or me is a 1\2 moa rifle out to 1000 all the time, but I can shoot 1/2 moa out to 200m most times and out to 500m sometimes. Wind is quite a factor with 223 at distance. I haven't made the 1/2 moa challenge though, always screw up a shot somewhere along the line. Dang thing shoots though. Reloading is a must for that kind of shooting.

[JWCalgary]

Looks like reloading is the key to accuracy. It's definitely a common thread here.
I have so far just tested different ammo, grains, manufacturers etc to find the best round for each of my rifles but that does get expensive.

I think I'll keep on looking and then work on the reloading sooner than next year.

Thanks for all the tips. Much appreciated.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by fatboyz

I have a savage mod 12 VLP with 1:7 twist. I have a Sightron SII Bigsky on it. It's been bedded and has a single shot follower and that is the only mods from stock. I am shooting 69 gr Sierra Match kings from it out to 1000m. I'm not saying it or me is a 1\2 moa rifle out to 1000 all the time, but I can shoot 1/2 moa out to 200m most times and out to 500m sometimes. Wind is quite a factor with 223 at distance. I haven't made the 1/2 moa challenge though, always screw up a shot somewhere along the line. Dang thing shoots though. Reloading is a must for that kind of shooting.

With a seven twist, you should be using a heavier bullet. It will help dramatically with the wind at distance. Try bullets in the 80-90 grain range.

[Faststeel]

There is a fellow that lives in Consort that has designed a wildcat in 20 caliber and he calls it 20 extreme. It is based on a shortened 222 case then necked down to 20 caliber. This amazing round will shoot very well with a wide variety of powders and 20 caliber bullets. His personal gun is done on a CZ 527 action with a Kreiger barrel. has a couple of rifles at a gunsmith right now being barreled and should be ready soon. FS

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Faststeel

There is a fellow that lives in Consort that has designed a wildcat in 20 caliber and he calls it 20 extreme. It is based on a shortened 222 case then necked down to 20 caliber. This amazing round will shoot very well with a wide variety of powders and 20 caliber bullets. His personal gun is done on a CZ 527 action with a Kreiger barrel. has a couple of rifles at a gunsmith right now being barreled and should be ready soon. FS

I am having a 20Vartarg built, which is very similar, but more common, and easier to get dies for. The 20Vartarg drives a 32gr bullet at 3700-3800fps, but with about 30% less powder than the 204Ruger, which greatly extends barrel life. Cooper builds factory rifles for the 20Vartarg.

[Faststeel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am having a 20Vartarg built, which is very similar, but more common, and easier to get dies for. The 20Vartarg drives a 32gr bullet at 3700-3800fps, but with about 30% less powder than the 204Ruger, which greatly extends barrel life. Cooper builds factory rifles for the 20Vartarg.

Elk
This fellow has supply of dies for sale for his cartridge, shortened and necked 222 brass is also very economical vs 204 Ruger brass, If I recall many powders are loaded in the 20gr range, plus his rheamer is very close spec so brass has little or no stretch leading to excellent case life. You should have a look if you are already thing of a 20 caliber for yourself. FS

[elkhunter11]

Elk
This fellow has supply of dies for sale for his cartridge, shortened and necked 222 brass is also very economical vs 204 Ruger brass, If I recall many powders are loaded in the 20gr range, plus his rheamer is very close spec so brass has little or no stretch leading to excellent case life. You should have a look if you are already thing of a 20 caliber for yourself. FS

I already have the brass and dies for the 20Vartarg, and the rifle in 20 Vartarg, is being built. 20 Vartarg is easily formed in one step, by running 221 Fireball brass through the 20Vartarg sizing die. I will be using Redding neck bushing dies, to obtain the proper neck tension, and to minimize working of the case, to extend brass life.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Faststeel

There is a fellow that lives in Consort that has designed a wildcat in 20 caliber and he calls it 20 extreme. It is based on a shortened 222 case then necked down to 20 caliber. This amazing round will shoot very well with a wide variety of powders and 20 caliber bullets. His personal gun is done on a CZ 527 action with a Kreiger barrel. has a couple of rifles at a gunsmith right now being barreled and should be ready soon. FS

I posted information about the 20 Extreme about 2 years ago on this thred(post # 57. Take a look if you are interested.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=118005&page=2

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am having a 20Vartarg built, which is very similar, but more common, and easier to get dies for. The 20Vartarg drives a 32gr bullet at 3700-3800fps, but with about 30% less powder than the 204Ruger, which greatly extends barrel life. Cooper builds factory rifles for the 20Vartarg.

A fellow at the Consort range told me about this thread last night so I thought I would take a look and respond. The only real similarity between the 20 Vartarg and my 20 EXTREME is that they both shoot .204" bullets.
Buy a Cooper rifle and you get a 12 twist barrel that limits you to about 18-18.5 grains of H 4198 and about 3850fps max. H 4198 is too fast to safely get the 40 grain bullets to stabilize without running too high pressure. While the new Accurate LT 32, at about 19.1 grains, will get the 40 Bergers and the 39 BK to stabilize at just under 3500 fps, the case is full and the powder compressed to the point that the seater distorts the bullets on the 39.

The 20 VT case is really a bit too small to take advantage of of H 4198 or RL 7 which are really the only two available powders that will get the 32 grain bullet safely to 3850. It is also too small to take avantage of the slower powders that will get the 40 grain bullets safely to 3550- 3650 fps required to stabilize the 40 grain bullets in a 12 twist. AA 2200 may be an exception but I suspect pressures will near max.

The 20 EXTREME was designed with just a bit more capacity which enables it to make optimal use of the Hodgdon Extreme H 4198, with the 32 grain bullets, and H 4895 with the 39-40 grain bullets. Another Extreme powder came along, in the form of IMR 8208 XBR , which is even better. With about 25% less powder, 20.8 gr. H 4198, it will safely get the 32 grain bullets to 204 Ruger velocities at over 4200 fps. Optimal for all rifles is 20.3 grains at about 4025 but my CZ liked 20.6 at 4125 fps.
[IMG][/IMG]
Does well at 20 VT velocities with H 4895 and slightly higher with H 322.
[IMG][/IMG]

I havn't tried LT 32 with the 32-35 grain bullets, which it is likely perfect for, but it really shines with the 40 V-Max at 20.3 grains. The following targets show that the brass is just starting to fireform at about 3600 fps and I have tested it up to 20.9 grains at which point the brass is just fireforming to the chamber. At 20.3 this load shoots consistently a under 0.47" even with multiple shooters on a 7 shot group.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

Ramshot Exterminator Has proven to be a super performer getting the 40 V-Max to 3722 fps without fireforming the brass on a 20+ degree day. Although the group opens up a bit it is safe to over 30 degrees Celsius in the gopher patch.
[IMG][/IMG]

Ramshot Tac at 22.1 grains and a 9 twist barrel get the 55 Berger to stabilize at over 3200 fps.
[IMG][/IMG]

With the 20 EXTREME fireforming is eliminated as you just have to trim a 222 Rem brass to length, champher and run through the 20 EXTREME die set to 0.0005-0.0001" headspace on the shoulder datum. Load and shoot, clean and run back through the die and it is good to load again. No need for neck bushing dies or shoulder bump dies. The following picture shows a newly formed brass being held in my caliper under one that has been fired the third time with the 40 V-Max at 3722 fps. They were both formed the same and trimmed to 1.575".
[IMG][/IMG]
Diameter at the 0.200" datum is still the same as well which shows that the brass was not fireforming at that point.
[IMG][/IMG]

Good luck with your 20 VarTarg. Show me some results like those above and the following targets and I will concede that the 20 VT and the 20 EXTREME are very similar.
[IMG][/IMG]

[southernman]

Am I missing something here, its a 222 necked down to 20 cal correct?
a 20-222.
or is there case shorting and shoulder differences?

Was looking at a 20-222, as have about 5000 brass sitting in a box. likely on a mini mauser action.

[fish gunner]

Weatherby varmint or sub moa. Under 1000 $ just pick the glass you feel you need . Easy choice . Sako is another choice not sure they chamber varmint lines.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Weatherby varmint or sub moa. Under 1000 $ just pick the glass you feel you need . Easy choice . Sako is another choice not sure they chamber varmint lines.

The Vanguard MOA was discontinued, when the S2 line came out. All of the S2 line are guaranteed MOA.The Howa made rifles are an excellent choice, whether they wear a Howa stamp, or a Weatherby stamp. As for Sako, they offer more options in varmint rifles than Weatherby.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by southernman

Am I missing something here, its a 222 necked down to 20 cal correct?
a 20-222.
or is there case shorting and shoulder differences?

Was looking at a 20-222, as have about 5000 brass sitting in a box. likely on a mini mauser action.

The 20-222 is a necked down 222 Rem case which is fireformed to a Saami Spec 222 Rem chamber. On fireforming the shoulder of the new brass is blown forward about 0.004" and the diameter is increased by about 0.010". As well the diameter at the 0.200" Datum is blown out by about 0.005".
The 20 EXTREME is formed by trimming off the excess neck on the 222 Rem and folding the neck down from 23 degrees to 30 degrees. The shoulder of a new brass remains at it's original length and the diameter is reduced by about 0.0005" depending on the brass. The result is that the 20-222 has about 2.0 grains more capacity and a greater OAL. The larger capacity actually results in less velocity and higher pressures as powder is increased to compensate. As well the shorter OAL and throat design of the 20 EXTREME allows even the 55 grain Berger to fit easily in the magazine while being perfectly seated with the bearing surface ahead of the Neck Shoulder Junction.
[IMG][/IMG]

The chamber is cut so that the shoulder does not move forward but allows the shoulder to expand by 0.002" and the neck by about 0.003". The fired brass maintains the 30 degree shoulder and running it back through the dies puts it back to its originally formed size. As the Head Space is measured on the Shoulder Datum the 0.002" shoulder tolerance actually creates about 0.0005" - 0.001" Head Space. As long as the chamber is not cut over spec. the new Rem 222 brass can be formed to fit the chamber with 0.0005"-0.001" HS.

This is demonstrated by the following pictures: Brass formed to my slightly oversize chamber.
[IMG][/IMG]
Brass formed to fit chamber with 0.0005" HS.
[IMG][/IMG]

The CZ 527 is an awesome Mini Mauser action for the 20 EXTREME and my rifle started out as the 527 Varmint Kevlar in 223. The rounds feed nicely from a 223 magazine but I prefer the Calhoon single shot follower. Of course the Sako L46, 461, A1 are exceptional donor rifles and the 85 XS is the ultimate.

I have a slightly used CZ 527 Varmint Kevlar just like my prototype rifle and am presently having one built with a Kreiger #5, 11 twist, barrel and another on a Sako A1 with a Kreiger # 3 CM in 12 twist.
I planned on offering this one for sale at the Consort Gun show for about the same price as a Cooper, even with the scope included.
[IMG][/IMG]
My son would sell this one as well as he has his eye on the Sako A1.
[IMG][/IMG]

[duceman]

although i'm not a 20 cal fan, i really appreciate the info above, great research and real world testing. info like this is few and far between in this place, very refreshing, thanks iclund, lee

[Faststeel]

Some thing that the cartridge designer some times fails to get across is that all of the loads mentioned above will shoot very well in any rifle and in any brand of barrel which is what makes this design so phenomenal, a statement damn few other designers can accurately make. FS

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Faststeel

Some thing that the cartridge designer some times fails to get across is that all of the loads mentioned above will shoot very well in any rifle and in any brand of barrel which is what makes this design so phenomenal, a statement damn few other designers can accurately make. FS

I have developed over 50 loads, in my CZ 527 V Kevlar, that have shot 3-10 shot sub 1/2 MOA groups. Some were in a Pac Nor SS, Super Match, 12 twist, 24" Rem Sporter contour barrel that was installed instead of the contour that I ordered. The gunmith ordered the same barrel in the proper contour only in an 11 twist.

I bought the take off barrel and installed it on my friends CZ 527 American with just a bit of fitting of the forestock and without bedding. On the first trip to the range he shot his first ever, 100 yard, 5 shot group with all bullets touching. The load was one developed in my 527 Kevlar with that barrel. Unfortunatly my best friend lost his battle with cancer last spring and is not here to verify that. However here are his comments regarding the article I put together about the develpoment of the 20 EXTREME.
TED INGRAM EMAIL TO SOME OF HIS OTHER FRIENDS:
[Fwd: 20 EXTREME.doc]
This is actually true. :-) I have been a small part of the development and have shot incredible groups on paper & many gophers with this rifle. :-) Lavern is a fanatical guru. He may be able to make one for you should one feel the need for the exotic. ;-) Ted.

The same was true for a Ruger 77 Varmint/Target that started out with a 26 " factory barrel chambered in 204 R. After a couple of years of killing gophers with the 204R a fellow decided to have 2" cut off of the chamber end and run my 20 EXTREME reamer in. It shot loads developed in my Pac Nor SS Super Match into 1/3" groups which were the equal or better than mine.

As well as shooting tight groups in any brand of barrel, as Fasteel alluded to, my loads seem to shoot well even with a major change in twist and different barrel length. As well it dosn't seem to mater if the brass is right out of the bag or complety prepped by weight sorting, neck turning, flash hole deburring and primer pocket uniforming. The following target was the very first shot with the Shillen SS, Select match, 25", 9 twist barrel using loads developed in my PacNor 24", 11. The top left group, included the bore sight shot and was shot from my mobility scooter bench from the bipod with a rear bag.
[IMG][/IMG]
A subsequent test comparing prepped brass to brass right out of the bag proved that the XR-100 really likes my 39 Blitz King load.
[IMG][/IMG]
Another plus is that the 55 grain Berger shoots the following group to the same point of impact.
[IMG][/IMG]

My Mobility Scooter Bench is a bit shakey but better than nothing.
[IMG][/IMG]

[FreeLantz]

Wow. I gotta say, I don't understand half of what has been discussed in this thread, but man I appreciate in the in-depth study happening right now.

And I think we should all stand and start a slow clap for the gentleman with the mobility scooter shooting bench. That's fantastic, truthfully.

[Faststeel]

Well some times i get to shooting with this fellow and if we have a nice field full of targets we can get out the benches and tables. And the rests and bipods and really have a ball.. Just nothing like a big pasture with short grass and vermin every where you look. FS