Sheep on a Draw?

Ya fairness, and I have seen numerous times where guys with less priority
have been drawn b4 another with more. Im not gunna argue about the draw system. It is flawed just like everything.I know guys that are a priority 3 on cow elk in 324 and my wife gets a tag every year. But I guess it all fair.

Man you know a lot of people that unexplainable things happen to..........

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

But is it really a problem? We have loads of breeding rams that call the parks home so that's not really and issue and from what I can ascertain, populations are stable. short of opening new areas,

You sound like a broken record. No one said it was a "PROBLEM".

And the parks comment is fine but there are a few zones that have very minimal park influence.

And about this opening new areas? Ive heard this a couple times. How many areas are there that can be opened without going into parks or sanctuaries?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Man you know a lot of people that unexplainable things happen to..........

What ever TJ it seems that if something doesnt happen to you or someone you know or if you dont hear about it, it doesnt happen or exist. There is a big hunting world out there beyond the world of TJ. Just perhaps your not as big out there as you thought!!!!

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You sound like a broken record. No one said it was a "PROBLEM".

And the parks comment is fine but there are a few zones that have very minimal park influence.

And about this opening new areas? Ive heard this a couple times. How many areas are there that can be opened without going into parks or sanctuaries?

Ummm...I was responding to Swaro...I suspect lots of people on here figure we have a problem or this discussion wouldn't be taking place.... There may well be a problem...I'm just saying we need to identify first. What some see as a problem...others likely don't. Getting concensus from hunters is not a simple thing....nor is managing game to suit all hunters.

x2 I for one do not like seeing immature rams being taken.
Have we now identified the underlying problem?
That being said I don't want to see it going to draw as we have discussed many times...

I can name loads of places that are currently closed to hunting that could be opened. We could start with the Wilderness Areas and Provincial Parks.

[Okotokian]

OK you two... let's settle this. Calgary Sportsman's Show, Saturday 1:00 p.m. Spitballs at ten paces.

[209x50]

I think that other than a very few on here, just about everyone agrees that any legal sheep is a heck of a trophy. Those that don't agree with that line of thinking have already have killed their first ram and want something better. What is something better, well some on here think better is determined by age like SG, but when I look at the pictures of the rams he guided this year it plain to see that age doesn't increase the trophy in many cases. If age doesn't make the trophy what does, genetics and habitat? Genetics we can't do anything about but habitat we can, perhaps improving sheep range would improve the trophy potential. The 5 year wait plan doesn't bear up under even the lamest of scrutiny and I think there will never be a shortage of 140 guys a year who will shoot the first legal sheep they see.

Id rather have a system where I can take my boys out when they are old enough to hunt and see them get a bighorn. Not have to wait a bunch of years because a bunch of greedy hunters needed 4 or 5 rams on the wall and they have to go through 10yrs of draws so that guys like you TJ can get drawn for their 6th ram.

And therin lies the problem Darcy. I'd happily wait 10 years for a draw where I knew I would likely shoot a book ram if I worked at it but I totally understand why your boys wouldn't want to. I'm sure they'd be pleased with any legal ram and I can't blame them. So who do we manage for? We need to manage for the majority after managing for a healthy game population and from what I see, most hunters just want their first ram and aren't overly concerned if it only scores 155 and is 6 years old.

BTW, I'd still need to get #4&5 before moving on to number 6 but I appreciate your confidence in me

Originally Posted by Okotokian

OK you two... let's settle this. Calgary Sportsman's Show, Saturday 1:00 p.m. Spitballs at ten paces.

LOL...nothing personal with me Oko...Darcy has some strong opinions and I have mine. Debates are good when people stick to the facts. Sheep hunters are a passionate lot and this is a very contentious issue. If we can avoid the name calling and such, I'm sure some good discussion can take place and we may even offer some valuable input to managers. That's my only motivation.....

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

What some see as a problem...others likely don't. Getting concensus from hunters is not a simple thing....nor is managing game to suit all hunters.

I think we have a winner! LOL

Originally Posted by sheephunter

But is it really a problem? While you and I would love the opportunity to harvest more mature rams, is that what the average Albertan wants? Considering that most first-time sheep hunters are happy to shoot any ram, possibly it's not a problem.

You make a good point here. It seems the average Albertan maybe happy with any ram regardless of age. Personally, I am not but I guess that I am not the majority...

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you truly want more bigger/older rams out there....you are lobbying for a draw. There's no way around it.

If and this is a BIG IF, we could change the way the average Albertan feels about just a legal ram then there may not be a need to maintain the amount of quality area restricted to parks.
I might be living in a dream world based on my final comment. haha

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you truly want more bigger/older rams out there....you are lobbying for a draw. There's no way around it.

A draw is not a bad thing if it was resident only areas. I do however have a problem waiting 10 years for a draw when non-residents can go every year. I don't think I am alone here. We have already seen the problems of have non-residents in a draw area such as canmore.

If and this is a BIG IF, we could change the way the average Albertan feels about just a legal ram then there may not be a need to maintain the amount of quality area restricted to parks.
I might be living in a dream world based on my final comment. haha

I like your dream world...

I say open the currently closed provincial parks and wilderness areas on a very controlled draw. It creates more opportunity for all hunters. It increases the odds for guys like you of taking that dream ram and it leaves lots of hunting opportunity for Darcy's boys.

It's not that far fetched. Hunting is permitted in Provincial Parks in many provinces and why the wilderness areas are closed to hunting has never made sense to me. Keep their integrity by leaving the foot-access only policy in place and what's the harm?

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I think there will never be a shortage of 140 guys a year who will shoot the first legal sheep they see.

I believe this is the reason why we have so many parks within Alberta.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's not that far fetched. Hunting is permitted in Provincial Parks in many provinces and why the wilderness areas are closed to hunting has never made sense to me. Keep their integrity by leaving the foot-access only policy in place and what's the harm?

Where do I sign up!?

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I say open the currently closed provincial parks and wilderness areas on a very controlled draw. It creates more opportunity for all hunters. It increases the odds for guys like you of taking that dream ram and it leaves lots of hunting opportunity for Darcy's boys.

It's not that far fetched. Hunting is permitted in Provincial Parks in many provinces and why the wilderness areas are closed to hunting has never made sense to me. Keep their integrity by leaving the foot-access only policy in place and what's the harm?

Yah, opening up more area would be great.

I know for a fact that there currently are parkies trying their hardest to get hunting out of some of the wilderness/park areas. We argue and debate on this forum a bunch, but on matters of this nature we have to stick together and scrape for our collective hunting rights.

[Duk Dog]

Anyone else get nervous at the thought of leaving it up to the province to manage an area for trophy quality? Is there an area that is actually managed for trophy quality (of any species) in the province? I don't think so, and I wouldn't want sheep to be that guinea pig.

[sheepguide]

The topic of guys being happy of just a legal ram is valid but wouldnt these same guys like the oppertunity to maybe turn down a just legal ram because the oppertunity to hunt something a little better is there and if they dont find that bigger one they can go back and be able to find a legal ram. The way things are now most guys shoot the first legal ram they see because it could be the only legal ram they see all fall!

And 209, you wanna bring in the pics of the rams that I killed in the north well that happens to be an area hit hard with residents(Tetsa River and Tuchodi Lakes). There was a total of 6 legal rams 8 or older spotted and 1 6yr old full curl total for the season. Out of them 7 legal rams I got the 4 biggest. This just proves my point more as the areas with less pressure are killing the bigger sheep.
Oh and 209 right now in BC 37" 155" lamb tipped ram is average. 2 of the rams I got were 160+. One grossed 166 at 35".

[sheepguide]

Now you guys figure that some provincial parks and wild life sanctuaries that help sustain our bighorn populations should be hunted? Give me a break. Some of you same guys just said our populations are good because of these areas now you say we should hunt there. Thats unreal. This topic is a lost cause here.
SG

[spurly]

Full curl rule for the entire province would help the most, as far as giving, the rams a couple extra years,There are a lot of rams that will never make it ,but the genetics would still remain.Cutting road access would also eliminate, a lot of poaching ,and native hunting issues.Access is one of the reasons why BC residents kill a lot of big Bighorns, as well as the fullcurl rule.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

The topic of guys being happy of just a legal ram is valid but wouldnt these same guys like the oppertunity to maybe turn down a just legal ram because the oppertunity to hunt something a little better is there and if they dont find that bigger one they can go back and be able to find a legal ram. The way things are now most guys shoot the first legal ram they see because it could be the only legal ram they see all fall!

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by sheepguide

And 209, you wanna bring in the pics of the rams that I killed in the north well that happens to be an area hit hard with residents(Tetsa River and Tuchodi Lakes). There was a total of 6 legal rams 8 or older spotted and 1 6yr old full curl total for the season. Out of them 7 legal rams I got the 4 biggest. This just proves my point more as the areas with less pressure are killing the bigger sheep.
Oh and 209 right now in BC 37" 155" lamb tipped ram is average. 2 of the rams I got were 160+. One grossed 166 at 35".

SG, I don't think any offence was intended as it sounded to me like he was just making the point that age doesn't necessarily increase the size of the trophy in many cases?

The topic of guys being happy of just a legal ram is valid but wouldnt these same guys like the oppertunity to maybe turn down a just legal ram because the oppertunity to hunt something a little better is there and if they dont find that bigger one they can go back and be able to find a legal ram.

Guys that have never killed a ram....I highly doubt it.

It all comes down to there is always going to be more guys willing to kill the first legal rams they see than there are legal rams. We're only talking 140 rams here.

There's a lot of very experienced sheep hunters on this board and I have no doubt that their thought process is like that but you show a guy that has never spent much time in the mountains or ever killed a ram a legal sheep and I'll guarantee lead is flying. There is always going to be 140 of those guys. Truthfully, most guys are thrilled to kill one legal sheep in their lifetime and who can blame them. Score and age mean nothing....they just want to be a successful sheep hunter.

[packhuntr]

Careful with all the "they" just want a legal for thier first ram, "they" this "they" that. I am sure there is a just legal ram in S-hunter's house, and I know there is a just legal in S-guide's house. This is being discussed as though there are no big rams around and its all someone else's fault....

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

you show a guy that has never spent much time in the mountains or ever killed a ram a legal sheep and I'll guarantee lead is flying. There is always going to be 140 of those guys. Truthfully, most guys are thrilled to kill one legal sheep in their lifetime and who can blame them. Score and age mean nothing....they just want to be a successful sheep hunter.

And I admit that is me to a tee. I've not got one yet and if I came across a legal ram that presented a reasonable shot I'd take it. But if you want to avoid the likes of me and get that bigger ram, just keep hiking and/or driving. I'm not going to be hunting anywhere that I would have to pack out more than a couple miles and where I can't be back home from well before supper. And there are lots more like me. I self-select to hunt in crappy areas.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

And I admit that is me to a tee. I've not got one yet and if I came across a legal ram that presented a reasonable shot I'd take it. But if you want to avoid the likes of me and get that bigger ram, just keep hiking and/or driving. I'm not going to be hunting anywhere that I would have to pack out more than a couple miles and where I can't be back home from well before supper. And there are lots more like me. I self-select to hunt in crappy areas.

LMAO! Have to admire your honesty!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Careful with all the "they" just want a legal for thier first ram, "they" this "they" that. I am sure there is a just legal ram in S-hunter's house, and I know there is a just legal in S-guide's house. This is being discussed as though there are no big rams around and its all someone else's fault....

Have you read all the posts! We all realize there are big rams out there. And yes Tj and I both have good legal sheep on the wall. My first ram had 15 guys in 4 groups stalking them opening morning he was never gunna get any older. And no I probably wouldnt have turned him down but who knows. If there was more better rams out and about I may have as there was over 2 months of season left.
SG

[Gulo gulo]

Sheephunter, Is this 5 year wait going in next year for sure??

[sheepguide]

The end of my story is that the sheep hunting in alberta is good, it could be better, and none of us really can agree on the topic so I guess its time to move on.
SG

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Careful with all the "they" just want a legal for thier first ram, "they" this "they" that. I am sure there is a just legal ram in S-hunter's house, and I know there is a just legal in S-guide's house. This is being discussed as though there are no big rams around and its all someone else's fault....

Actually there isn't but only because I happened to have a big ram walk out in front of me first. If you've followed what I've posted in this thread, you'd realize there was no slight in those words. I don't blame people at all for killing a just legal ram and I definitely would have too. Don't try to read more into what I'm saying...it's just a fact that there are loads of people out there willing to kill a just legal ram.....nothing wrong with it...it's just a fact.

Just legal really doesn't mean anything anyhow. Vanessa's ram was just legal and was aged at 9 years and scored 170. There are loads of guys willing to kill a very young ram, however and that's never going to change and as long as it's permitted by law, I wholeheartedly congratulate those that do.

[ishootbambi]

yes there are a few zones managed for trophy quality in Alberta. they are mostly mule deer zones. the best example of trophy management WAS 728-730 (Wainwright Military Base) for antlered moose. up until about 7 years ago the were 15 tags issued. average size moose taken were well over 50 inches. then it became 30 tags available, and within 2 years average antler size was about 45 inches. currently there are 40 tags available, and very few bulls taken are over 40 with the average around 30. i believe last year the largest taken was 44. i wasnt there, but a friend of mine got it and he said it was the biggest. threre was 2 days left though when he left the base. the draw used to work, and its an example now of a draw alone not being enough. even with a draw in place, too many tags are issued resulting in poor trophy quality. i still say a draw is the way to grow bigger sheep, and i still say not in every zone. you would need to break it down zone by zone to see how many rams are killed on average, and then aim to kill about half that number. in 2 to 3 years, the guys drawn are going to see alot more big sheep than we do now, and the size of rams taken would surely go up. i think it should be once in a lifetime though in those draw areas. shoot your honker and then good luck in the general zones.

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Sheephunter, Is this 5 year wait going in next year for sure??

No idea but F&W is considering it and it is being pushed from a few places that I know of and not just outfitters. Actually your post was the first I'd heard of that.

[hal53]

SHEESH!!!!!!!!..just got home after a month...and reading this thread...there is no wonder the antis are gaining...you kids can't have an intelligent conversation without dissing everyone who doesn't believe in the things that you do!!! no wonder it's so easy to divide and conquer...MAN!!!!...TJ and SG may have differnt opinions on a "quality" experience..then every sheep hunter jumps in...can u imagine if SRD or worse..PETA reads this BS what they think?????...c'mon guys the resource is there for everyone...good open, unbiased dialogue is good....self centered , name calling, sticking up for your friends, etc,...does no good for anyone

[podman]

Of all the book rams taken how many were taken by residents? I feel if we want more book rams we need to decrease outfitters tags. Outfitters take 1/3-1/4 of the sheep. I bet that out of the rams taken by outfitters and resident hunters there is a strong discrepancy in size. Maybe resident hunters would take larger rams if they weren’t taken by the outfitters.

My personal preference it to optimize habitat for sheep such as the 30 and 40 acre burns in 400. Unfortunately there’s no data yet on whether the burn helped or not as it was done 5 or so years ago.

I also looked to see what number of book rams came from what decade. The best decades for book rams and rams over 190 in order: 1960s(77book/11 over 190), 1990s(50/15), 1980s(50/2), 2000s(36/11), 1950s(27/5), and 1970s(19/1). So I don’t think that size has been affected that much.

1990s and 2000s produced more 190+ rams (26) as 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80 combined (25)