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  #211  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:43 PM
avb3 avb3 is offline
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[QUOTE=30Cal;1298933]
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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
Phffffftt... what supernatural or spiritual belief system is promulgated by atheists?

Having a non-secular philosopher define atheism has as much credibility as an atheist trying to define a faith.

Question it's premises and explanations is valid, but defining it? How can anyone define what may be my spirituality? It's mine, not yours, not anyone else's and certainly not someone's who doesn't know mine.

Atheists happen to belief in no spiritual beliefs. That's OK. Don't call it a religion, because I can guarantee you my spiritual beliefs are not a religion.
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  #212  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:47 PM
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[QUOTE=Tactical Lever;1298632]
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Carbon dating has been proven to be a sham. And you did say it killed everything. Just how do you know it was the shrew that survived? How did it alone survive? The leaps and contortions you crazies go through to prove nothing....



Ok, I've read scientific books, including the world's greatest scientist. None of the human ones worth their salt can say what happened. Lots of theories. Like you said. You weren't there.



Really, then you can answer my list of questions also. For bonus points add in how giraffes survive, and how the 1st sexually reproducing animal mated.



Ok tell me how something dead changed into something living. You know; with science. Explain how it turned into something many times more complicated than a modern fighter jet, without outside influence.



The same can be said for your theories. Except mine actually had eyewitness accounts.



Your elitest attitude that science and the Bible does not mix is patently absurd. If you actually studied the matter with an open mind, you would find you suggest impossibilities to refute logical explanation.
Lol you lost any respect i had for with "carbon dating has proven to be a farce". My gosh man/woman. Get a
Grip on reality.
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  #213  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:48 PM
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[QUOTE=avb3;1298940]
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Originally Posted by 30Cal View Post

Phffffftt... what supernatural or spiritual belief system is promulgated by atheists?

Having a non-secular philosopher define atheism has as much credibility as an atheist trying to define a faith.

Question it's premises and explanations is valid, but defining it? How can anyone define what may be my spirituality? It's mine, not yours, not anyone else's and certainly not someone's who doesn't know mine.

Atheists happen to belief in no spiritual beliefs. That's OK. Don't call it a religion, because I can guarantee you my spiritual beliefs are not a religion.
besides that I don't go to a building every sunday to compare clothes and gossip about people
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  #214  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:51 PM
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[QUOTE=eastcoast;1298936]eastcoast
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to prove me wrong about my point, you reinforce it?
Read slower, with a little more comprehension...and try to relax

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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  #215  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:51 PM
Donkey Oatey Donkey Oatey is offline
 
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FSM for the win.
http://www.venganza.org/about/

Makes more sense to me TBH. Please keep an open mind.
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  #216  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:54 PM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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FSM for the win.
http://www.venganza.org/about/

Makes more sense to me TBH. Please keep an open mind.
seems reasonable.
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  #217  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post

Phffffftt... what supernatural or spiritual belief system is promulgated by atheists?

Having a non-secular philosopher define atheism has as much credibility as an atheist trying to define a faith.

Question it's premises and explanations is valid, but defining it? How can anyone define what may be my spirituality? It's mine, not yours, not anyone else's and certainly not someone's who doesn't know mine.

Atheists happen to belief in no spiritual beliefs. That's OK. Don't call it a religion, because I can guarantee you my spiritual beliefs are not a religion.
However to the believer it is a spiritual movement, and at no point will you be able to alter that. If you don't believe me simply answer the questions I presented to you twice before.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and He manifested Himself in the flesh, or should we say human form?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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  #218  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:05 PM
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However to the believer it is a spiritual movement, and at no point will you be able to alter that. If you don't believe me imply answer the questions I presented to you twice before.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and He manifested Himself in the flesh, or should we say human form?
How often are you going to ask the same question and not read my answer?

Waaaay back at post 35, I replied. Here is the link. Please read it this time.
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  #219  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:10 PM
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That would assume one had to believe that the bible represented a literal and historical story, would it not?

And for those that do, and if it gives them comfort, great.

Some of us look for more substantial and verifiable from independent sources before we become enthralled by a philosophy.

After all, you do believe that science has advanced medicine and physics, right? Not many still rely on faith healing.
Your answer seems to dodge the question "Some of us look for more substantial and verifiable from independent sources before we become enthralled by a philosophy".

So is this a Yes or a No? or maybe undecided?

And who is to say that faith healing are still not happening, but why do it for those who continue to refuse to believe and try to explain it away with Science?

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

This debate has been going on since the foundations of the earth.

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Nice story, or is it spiritual food for those who are connected to a Spirit? Maybe it shows them how they got into their present situation to begin with? And as they read on it tells them how to get out of there present situation.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." ...prophesy?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 04:39 PM.
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  #220  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:31 PM
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Seldom is anything found to be more amusing than an atheist pretending to be an expert on things pertaining to God or religion.
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  #221  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Cal View Post
Your answer seems to dodge the question "Some of us look for more substantial and verifiable from independent sources before we become enthralled by a philosophy".

So is this a Yes or a No? or maybe undecided?
It means I have no faith in the literal interpetation of the bible. One's spiritual beliefs or growth is not dependent on stuff handed down from desert wanderers.

Quote:
And who is to say that faith healing are still not happening, but why do it for those who continue to refuse to believe and try to explain it away with Science?
Yeah, Benny Hinn is big on that. Fraud that he is.

Quote:
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Egyptian Texts:

“I (Horus) am…the Lord of Resurrections, who cometh forth from the dusk and whose birth from the House of Death.” (PT 670:1975a-b/N 348)

Gospel of John (KJV):

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live…” (John 11:25)
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  #222  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:35 PM
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[QUOTE=30Cal;1298949]
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eastcoast

Read slower, with a little more comprehension...and try to relax
I have been painting on and off all day
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  #223  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:36 PM
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Seldom is anything found to be more amusing than an atheist pretending to be an expert on things pertaining to God or religion.
See post here
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  #224  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:47 PM
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"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." ...prophesy?

her offspring by geneology? Who is going to be stiking at His heels? I think He is doing a pretty good job, for He doing exactly as He said: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

I don't here to much about any or the Egyption or Greek Mythological figures doing the same?

Amazing how these books were written so many thousands of years about, but it all points to ?

Still waiting for direct answer to my previous question.... please.

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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  #225  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:55 PM
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Really? There is proog that the Buddha existed. He is mentioned in several reliable sources written during his long unhappy life. When a prince goes bonkers and starves himself to the edge of death it is newsworthy.
Muhammed is mentioned in many texts written during his life. Again when you are a fairly brutal warlord and sack a few of your enemies city's it is newsworthy.
Even Joseph Smith can be absolutely and beyond all doubt proven to have been a real person. When a con man is murdered it makes good headlines.
However when a hippy is crucified in a backwater of the Roman Empire as a common criminal it does not seem to warrant any mention. Despite the fact that eventually your name will bring down the most advanced civilisation (Roman Empire)the world has ever known and plunge the world into the horror of the dark ages and cause more war and evil to be done than any other name ever right up to present day.
There is only proof of humans having been on this earth, no proof of any god or any person with any ability beyond that of what is human.

(not referring to animals and insects and fish, obviously)
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  #226  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:57 PM
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Most have never read the whole thing, nor studied concordances of the whole. Their "knowledge" is based on oft repeated readings by priests/preachers and internet searches.

Hardly an indepth knowledge, isn't it?

As the Pew Forum study shows, and I quote from the executive summary,
"Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions."
Perhaps if apologists were more knowledgeable about what they are proselytizing about, one could take them more serious.

It is only when anyone else suggests there are contradictory inclusions in the bible, that your argument of "your talking it out of context" comes up.
Using your method of argument....by what Historical or emperical means of science can you prove that most have never read the whole thing. Have you spoke to all the Chrisitans? Did you actually see in this in some factual form this or do you just believe this?

And who is to say that everyone who confesses to be a Christian is one? I know from my from my Studies in Sociology about 20yrs ago, I read an article that indicated that about 80% or more of religions in the world were Chrisitan. I'm guessing this included Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witness...etc. Yet I read this somewhere "Many are called, but few are chosen" and "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom" Few not many.

However, only God knows these few and the motives of their heart. Yet this world tries to portray many. Why is that?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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  #227  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:00 PM
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I think He is doing a pretty good job, for He doing exactly as He said: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Quoting just a bit out of context are we not? You know, what others such as myself are often accused of.

Your quote is taken from Matthew 24:14

Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

All of those talk about end times, not what you are supposedly trying to convey.

No dark sun, no dark moon, stars aren't falling (wow... we know that science has taught us how many there are, and how big they are... THAT would be a sight, contrary to all laws of physics, which evangelists say God determined etc, etc).

Let's keep things in context, OK?

IF we are going to continue on this literal interpretation, and ignore the allegorical and metaphorical spiritual messages.
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  #228  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:09 PM
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I believe it was Plato that said that the unseen chair is the real chair for the real chair is a manifestation of ones consciousness in which the real chair existed (I trust avb3 to correct me if I’m wrong). Like wise the Bible would be considered by the believer as the manifestation of God’s word, presented through his creation as His spirit revealed it. Therefore revealing the mind of God. So in retrospect it becomes Real Evidence because it has it has been manifested in the Physical plan. This would likely explain what was meant by the Biblical verse in Rom 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

In respect to who is practicing paganism, you would have to be more specific as this relates to the judgments of your own experiences.
Plato was a great thinker and philospher, but again, just a man.
I believe, from my studies of Plato and his mentor Socrates, that the metaphysical theories put fourth by both, are far more literal in meaning than you have posted.

What you have failed to address is that Socrates and Plato's theories of metaphysics are universal. To subscribe to your interpreattion that the bible is a physical manifestation, also means that everythinhg within it, written and witnessed, were also physical manifestations of what is real,..

Your arguement for the Bible existing as evidence of God, based on Socrates or Platos theory, is a circular arguement, and not valid.

There is no religion that believes in a god, that can provide a valid arguement, unless that arguement is based in pragmatism.
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  #229  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:11 PM
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Using your method of argument....by what Historical or emperical means of science can you prove that most have never read the whole thing. Have you spoke to all the Chrisitans? Did you actually see in this in some factual form this or do you just believe this?
Let me quote from a Christian site:
Statistical research shows that less than 10% of professing Christians have
ever read the entire Bible. The church as a whole is Biblically illiterate!
From time to time in my Devotional I will give my opinion on an issue and I
am very careful to always let you know when it is Bill Keller’s opinion.
Most of the time I just let God’s words speak for themselves. There is not
one issue, one thing we deal with in everyday life that is not covered in
the Bible.
Quote:
And who is to say that everyone who confesses to be a Christian is one? I know from my from my Studies in Sociology about 20yrs ago, I read an article that indicated that about 80% or more of religions in the world were Chrisitan. I'm guessing this included Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witness...etc. Yet I read this somewhere
Please don't tell me you don't consider Catholics, Mormons, JW's as not Christian? I am sure a number would be quite offended by that.
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  #230  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:14 PM
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....Yet I read this somewhere "Many are called, but few are chosen" and "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom" Few not many.

However, only God knows these few and the motives of their heart. Yet this world tries to portray many. Why is that?
You edited and added after I replied.

So, you subscribe to being one of the 144,000 then? Is that a literal interpretation, or should one take it metaphorically?
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  #231  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quoting just a bit out of context are we not? You know, what others such as myself are often accused of.

Your quote is taken from Matthew 24:14

Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

All of those talk about end times, not what you are supposedly trying to convey.

No dark sun, no dark moon, stars aren't falling (wow... we know that science has taught us how many there are, and how big they are... THAT would be a sight, contrary to all laws of physics, which evangelists say God determined etc, etc).

Let's keep things in context, OK?

IF we are going to continue on this literal interpretation, and ignore the allegorical and metaphorical spiritual messages.
Am I? Where did it start...and where does it end. Drop a rock into any river or lake and the waves go out from that point until they reach every shoreline.

You sound to me like a well educated person. Therefore, I'm certain you likely listen to the news? Do you want to believe it is just by random chance that the countries around Jerusalem are in civil war? In order for a one world order to be put in place what is necessary to take palce? To remove leadership apposed to democracy and replace it with leaders that will all come to the same table? Could there be some spiritual force behind this movement? And if so for what cause?

And by the way...you still really haven't answered my question....or maybe you did...I would just like you to be more direct....Please

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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  #232  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
You edited and added after I replied.

So, you subscribe to being one of the 144,000 then? Is that a literal interpretation, or should one take it metaphorically?
Not at all....I never subscribed to any set number.

I did imply though that: "narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it"

The 144,000 was part of the JW believe but Charles Russell kept playing with their numbers when they exceeded the 144,000

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

I would like to believe that there has already been 144,000 souls saved over the last 2000yrs, considering the number of people who have died within that time.

PS. Direct answer.....Please

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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  #233  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:41 PM
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I am very interested in the theory of evolution thoughts, of those who believe God created the universe,

as well,..

If there is one God...and lets say he is the Christian God...and he has revealed himself through miracles, inteventions and the Bible...

Then what of the Hindus, the Muslims...who also claim such miracles, and revealing,...

Seems contradictory if there is one God, and he is the God of Christianity..
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  #234  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:44 PM
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Plato was a great thinker and philospher, but again, just a man.
I believe, from my studies of Plato and his mentor Socrates, that the metaphysical theories put fourth by both, are far more literal in meaning than you have posted.

What you have failed to address is that Socrates and Plato's theories of metaphysics are universal. To subscribe to your interpreattion that the bible is a physical manifestation, also means that everythinhg within it, written and witnessed, were also physical manifestations of what is real,..

Your arguement for the Bible existing as evidence of God, based on Socrates or Platos theory, is a circular arguement, and not valid.

There is no religion that believes in a god, that can provide a valid arguement, unless that arguement is based in pragmatism.


Are they? In what way? Did they not concerned themselves with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world as it related to their thoughts?
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  #235  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:46 PM
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I am very interested in the theory of evolution thoughts, of those who believe God created the universe,

as well,..

If there is one God...and lets say he is the Christian God...and he has revealed himself through miracles, inteventions and the Bible...

Then what of the Hindus, the Muslims...who also claim such miracles, and revealing,...

Seems contradictory if there is one God, and he is the God of Christianity..
It would not be a Christian God, Christian is a term that was coined in Antioch to label those who were followers of Christ. God would not be a follower of Christ if you understand the Trinity, for God and Christ are one of the same. He would be the God of all Nations.
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  #236  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:47 PM
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Are they? In what way? Did they not concerned themselves with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world as it related to their thoughts?
Are they what? In what way what?
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  #237  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.
Plato was a great thinker and philospher, but again, just a man.
I believe, from my studies of Plato and his mentor Socrates, that the metaphysical theories put fourth by both, are far more literal in meaning than you have posted.

Are they? In what way? Did they not concerned themselves with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world as it related to their thoughts? Where their thoughts of their own, or were they influenced by any spiritual realm?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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  #238  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:09 PM
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you've lost me... I can't pick sense out of your post..

do you mean "were thet great thinks? Philosophers?"

Do you mean literal meaning?

The existance of a chair in physical state, being a reflection, shadow, etc. of what we previously there or the interpretation thereof, speaks only of the chair, an object and our perception of it or our sensing of it in most basic of ways, as Socrates would put it...

Saying the physical representation of a chair provides evidence to whom was sitting on it, is not what Socrates nor Plato theorized, and essentialy this is what makes your arguement about the Bible circular.

Here's the arguement:

1. God exists
2. The Bible is the physical manifestation of his word
3. Based on Plato's theory, this physical manifestation is proof of alternate existence
4. Therfore God exists

You must believe number 1, it is not a proof.
You must believe 3, as it is not a proof.
4 is now invalid.

Even if Plato's theory were proven true, a Bible would not provide proof to support the existence of God. It would support the existence of something else for which the Bible is manifested,..and that could be a giant flood, from which everything else was spwned and made up.

If there was proof, if it did not require belief without evidenece, don't you think everyone would believe? Other religions would be proven to be wrong?


but beyond that,...

Last edited by Arn?Narn.; 02-11-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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  #239  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Arn?Narn. View Post
I am very interested in the theory of evolution thoughts, of those who believe God created the universe,

as well,..

If there is one God...and lets say he is the Christian God...and he has revealed himself through miracles, inteventions and the Bible...

Then what of the Hindus, the Muslims...who also claim such miracles, and revealing,...

Seems contradictory if there is one God, and he is the God of Christianity..
If you like to watch debates, and discussions on Creation or Evolution you might fine some info at this site.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=CCAF5ED6BED68C36

There is a couple of videos out "Darwin - The Voyage That Shook The World", and "Darwin's Dilemma" that are worth the viewing.

Many Scientist no longer support Darwin's Theories because findings from the PreCambrian Era or Shield tend to show that Life began at once, not through a series of successions. They can show however that species do evolve as they adapt to their surroundings but they don't cross over their perspective branches or boundries.
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  #240  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
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If you like to watch debates, and discussions on Creation or Evolution you might fine some info at this site.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=CCAF5ED6BED68C36

There is a couple of videos out "Darwin - The Voyage That Shook The World", and "Darwin's Dilemma" that are worth the viewing.

Many Scientist no longer support Darwin's Theories because findings from the PreCambrian Era or Shield tend to show that Life began at once, not through a series of successions. They can show however that species do evolve as they adapt to their surroundings but they don't cross over their perspective branches or boundries.
For Creationism vs evolution

Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.
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