Any road builders/grader operators out there?

[Bushmaster]

What is the proper grade to build a road or maintain it ? Is there such a thing as a standard grade. Most grader operators in our MD believe in flat road....and they leave the outside edges to form a dam. Mid summer, they grade the by now foot tall grass and the topsoil it is growing in to the middle and work it around. This leads to the ruining of many miles of road . Very frustrating.

[gman1978]

Same thing in my county. When they grade the sod into the middle come mid summer it’s a real wreck.

[Duster_80]

It's not as simple as just fixing the road here. You need to do some work to the ditches and shoulders of the road here, and ensure that there is adequate grade along the ditch line of the road for drainage, and culverts also need to be put in place to ensure drainage so that the shoulders and road do not become saturated and "push out". Sometimes a "quick fix" can be done or just some touch up work by having the grader lift the shoulders and "fold them" back toward the middle of the road and then complete the necessary leveling on the actual driving surface and if there is enough $$$ available a cap of gravel should be put on the top. If this is done some of the gravel should eventually be pushed into the road and build up a more durable base. That is if the grader operator doesn't wing it all in the ditch over time, or during snow plowing,and the material that was initially used to pad the road at the time of construction is good quality clay, and had large pit run put on at the start and packed in.

[Dale S]

A life span of a gravel road is 5 to 10 years depending on use. The road is built with a 3% grade. After the first couple years of a new road the crown gets beat down. The grader operator needs material to maintain that crown. It has to come from the shoulder of the road. Where else would you get it. That starts the edge on the grass. We all know grass grows and expands, and when you keep a proper crown on the road the water runs to the edge of the road making the grass grow and expand more. If you go out and grab the grass and get rid of the edge you have a road that will be to wide, more gravel, more time maintaining. Not cost effective. After 10 years you have a road that needs rebuilt. In the M.D. I'm in we have 2000 miles of gravel roads. Most built in the 1900's out of top soil. We rebuild maybe 10 miles a year. You just can't rebuild every road every 10 years. I have been there for more than 20 years and I have seen some of our busy roads rebuilt 3 times.

[Bushmaster]

Thanks Dale. So is the grade actually measured somehow?
Here's a pic from last year when they brought the edges in. IMO, it would be better to trim that 3-6 inch part and send it into the ditch. And in the old days the gravel didn't go all the way to the ditch. Graders/maintainers just slid it back and forth as they did their passes.

[Dale S]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster

Thanks Dale. So is the grade actually measured somehow?
Here's a pic from last year when they brought the edges in. IMO, it would be better to trim that 3-6 inch part and send it into the ditch. And in the old days the gravel didn't go all the way to the ditch. Graders/maintainers just slid it back and forth as they did their passes.

Those were the good old days of 3 ton trucks. Now it's super B's and triple axel **** haulers. Throw in the odd rig move during a rain, that's fun. That is nasty stuff to work with. You can't fill in your dich with the grass turns in to a bad snow catch and you lose drainage.

[Reeves1]

Westlock is doing the same thing.

Used to be normal (Canada wide) to pull shoulders.

Not anymore, apparently. Cost ?

They are also cutting the crown out & have "built" water containment areas in every dip.

Local Farmer had enough last summer & took his Tractor with a blade & cut the shoulders in the low areas so they would drain.

This year he took his disk for a drive down the shoulders.
Grader came along & pulled that section onto the road......right before a big rain. Was four wheel drive for a while.

Proper way to pull the shoulders is to do one side during a dry spell. Grass etc drys up & blows away. After this is worked , the other shoulder can be done.

Last time they spread new gravel , it looked like just screened material. Not crush. Migrates quickly to the ditches.

[Grizzly Adams]

Proper way to pull the shoulders is to do one side during a dry spell. Grass etc drys up & blows away. After this is worked , the other shoulder can be done.

Mother Nature likes likes to reclaim what is hers.

Grizz

[Xbolt7mm]

When the road is first built:

If built by the county then it could be whatever, they have different rules than sub contractors have to follow, they do it quick and cheap and dont have to follow rules.

If its a built by a contractor they will need a compaction test for every 500 M2, the crown will be either 2 or 3% and road slopes will be a 4:1 with a guard rail on anything steeper than that. There will be a 5cm variance allowed for grades on road slope, ditch bottom and back slopes. The road top will have a 3 cm plus or minus to pass. The road will need to be 95 % compaction except the top foot which will need to be 100%.

For maintenance:

the problem is grader operators wreck the roads for the most part, too hard on the blade for snow removal and the gravel is in the ditch, they “round” the crown instead of “V” it, they stay a foot away from the grass when they blade it which causes the ledge on the sides, if they would just move over a foot and half and take the grass then its just a little grass each time and it drys and blows away, once its left for 2-3 years the its a mess to fix it but it still can be done, eventually more gravel is required after the road is re shaped.

[KegRiver]

There is s simple solution to the problem.
Apply for the job.

You will find it's not as easy as you think.

Most jurisdictions have budgets which they must consider.
They resort to walking a tight line. More road per grader, less time per mile of road. An operator can only do so much.

The next problem you will encounter is, there are no instruments available to you that will accurately show you what the grade is while you are working.

Most road graders have only a basic grade meter. Basically a bubble level or the equivalent. Much higher precision meters are available but the operator has no say in what system is provided.

It's no simple task to try to shape a road using just the provided meter and your sight.

Then you have to consider that a good many county road supervisors have no training and no experience with road maintenance. You will have to try to keep them happy in order to keep your job.

If they tell you to not pull the shoulders, you don't pull the shoulders no matter how much it is needed.

Of course there is another option. You could do what most people do, you can complain about the guy who is doing the best he can.

[Dale S]

[QUOTE=Reeves1;3977728]Westlock is doing the same thing.

Used to be normal (Canada wide) to pull shoulders.

Not anymore, apparently. Cost ?

They are also cutting the crown out & have "built" water containment areas in every dip.

Local Farmer had enough last summer & took his Tractor with a blade & cut the shoulders in the low areas so they would drain.

This year he took his disk for a drive down the shoulders.
Grader came along & pulled that section onto the road......right before a big rain. Was four wheel drive for a while.


The road is wore out , it needs to be rebuilt. The farmers work cost your M.D. extra money that wasn't in the budget. Means your taxes going up. Also putting himself and the M.D. liable, if anything would have happened on that piece of road he fixed. It cost over $1 million to build a mile of gravel road.

[Dale S]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

When the road is first built:

If built by the county then it could be whatever, they have different rules than sub contractors have to follow, they do it quick and cheap and dont have to follow rules.

If its a built by a contractor they will need a compaction test for every 500 M2, the crown will be either 2 or 3% and road slopes will be a 4:1 with a guard rail on anything steeper than that. There will be a 5cm variance allowed for grades on road slope, ditch bottom and back slopes. The road top will have a 3 cm plus or minus to pass. The road will need to be 95 % compaction except the top foot which will need to be 100%.

For maintenance:

the problem is grader operators wreck the roads for the most part, too hard on the blade for snow removal and the gravel is in the ditch, they “round” the crown instead of “V” it, they stay a foot away from the grass when they blade it which causes the ledge on the sides, if they would just move over a foot and half and take the grass then its just a little grass each time and it drys and blows away, once its left for 2-3 years the its a mess to fix it but it still can be done, eventually more gravel is required after the road is re shaped.

For the most part, all true. One problem with pulling that 1.5 ft of grass on both sides. Your road grows 3ft wider a year. 5 years that's 15ft. 50% wider. 10 years that's 30ft. your road has double in width. Along with double the cost to gravel and maintain.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Dale S

For the most part, all true. One problem with pulling that 1.5 ft of grass on both sides. Your road grows 3ft wider a year. 5 years that's 15ft. 50% wider. 10 years that's 30ft. your road has double in width. Along with double the cost to gravel and maintain.

It does not, the grader has only moved over to hang a half foot past design shoulder simply to not leave a ledge on the side. Depending on the design road top this process may or may not add another pass to complete the road which would impact budget. Any grader operator worth his salt can keep a crown without any tools of measurement, a crown inclinometer is a just an added benefit for green operators. The only reason the ledge happens is simply because the county grader operators are seldom people from the construction industry that actually know how to run the thing properly. County’s cant afford real operators unless they are in retirement mode then those guys have to deal with some fellow that has come up through the municipal system to be a boss and knows dick squat about anything for road building