Sunflower Heater Incident

[RavYak]

I have talked about these heaters lots and about how I don't think they are an issue as we and others we know have used them many days and nights without issue.

That just changed though as I was just chatting with a fishing buddy and fellow AO member that ended up in the hospital with CO poisoning this week after using a sunflower on low in a 4 man tent like he has done many times before. He says he had the vents open but started feeling ill very quickly and ended up having to get an ambulance ride to the hospital and has been recovering for a couple days.

Still don't know what caused it, these heaters are very simple so all I can think of is that it wasn't running right for some reason(bad propane maybe) and he didn't realize it or ignored it. Once buddy is better he is going to try and figure out if there is something obviously wrong with his but will have to wait and see.

Just a word of caution for those that use these heaters. If it isn't acting right try to figure out what is wrong with it or don't use it. Also having a CO monitor, something I have never worried about before probably is a good idea. I don't know if any particular monitor/brand works better then others but if anyone has recommendations I am sure others would be interested to know about them.

[genno]

I've noticed that if the propane tank is low pressure, running low it will smell bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack&7]

Almost got gassed once in a buddy's tent...and he had the double flower model. One flower would run great...the other not so much.

But I notice my eyes start to burn when I am exposed to CO...that is what alerted me. Had to go outside to feel better again.

Gotta watch these things....

[silver]

My dad told me about a time when he was with some guys in the fall in a camper and they used the stove for some extra heat, before lights out some one wanted to light a smoke and the match wouldn't stay lit. They aired out the camper for a while before sacking out.

If some one hadn't tried to light a smoke, they probably wouldn't have made the night. Who says smoking is unhealthy.

I have a , let me think now, little buddy propane heater and it has a shutdown for low oxygen. It is an extra comfort against stupid little mistakes.

If anybody has different info on the heater with the shutoff, please let me know.

[.270fan]

Originally Posted by silver

My dad told me about a time when he was with some guys in the fall in a camper and they used the stove for some extra heat, before lights out some one wanted to light a smoke and the match wouldn't stay lit. They aired out the camper for a while before sacking out.

If some one hadn't tried to light a smoke, they probably wouldn't have made the night. Who says smoking is unhealthy.

I have a , let me think now, little buddy propane heater and it has a shutdown for low oxygen. It is an extra comfort against stupid little mistakes.

If anybody has different info on the heater with the shutoff, please let me know.

Don't develop a sense a false security because your heater has a low o2 sensor .. it's doesn't detect dangerous levels of CO. Better off to take a CO detector with you if you are burning propane in an enclosed space

[dodgeboy1979]

Originally Posted by .270fan

Don't develop a sense a false security because your heater has a low o2 sensor .. it's doesn't detect dangerous levels of CO. Better off to take a CO detector with you if you are burning propane in an enclosed space

CO is heavier than o2 so with the heater on the ground the CO would displace the o2. If the heater goes out o2 is low, seems pretty simple and logical.

[huntsfurfish]

Be aware:

Symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning
Carbon monoxide can cause health problems before you even notice that it's present. Breathing it in reduces your body's ability to carry oxygen in your blood. Exposure to the gas can cause carbon monoxide poisoning (CO poisoning) and can be dangerous to your health.

At low levels, effects include flu-like symptoms, such as:

tiredness
headaches
shortness of breath
impaired motor functions, such as:
muscle weakness
partial or total loss of function of a body part (limb or limbs)
At high levels, or if you are exposed to low levels for long periods of time, you can experience:

dizziness
chest pain
poor vision
difficulty thinking
At very high levels, it can cause:

convulsions
coma
death

Be aware of the symptoms, even a co detector does not guarantee your life.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by dodgeboy1979

CO is heavier than o2 so with the heater on the ground the CO would displace the o2. If the heater goes out o2 is low, seems pretty simple and logical.

Actually CO is slightly lighter then O2...

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Actually CO is slightly lighter then O2...

That would be correct!

[Dragless]

What about the big buddy heaters any one have any issues like that with them I just bought one keeps ya nice and warm but definitely gives a weird smell off? It does say it has a low oxygen shut off I atheist any better as a co2 shut off or is that the same thing. On a side note the only reason I didn't go for the sunflower setup is fears of it tipping and burning my tent seems like it would only be a matter of time in a small two man flip like mine before it tipped.

[waterninja]

This is a timely thread. Ant recommendations for a good CO2 alarm? Just about every heater out there runs on propane, whether it's a sunflower, buddy, Mr, whatever.
I always figured venting would be enough, but now I'm not so sure.

[Dubious]

Your going to be looking for a carbon monoxide detector. Any should do as long as it is UL or ULC approved.

http://www.calgary.ca/CSPS/Fire/Page...de-safety.aspx

In our case for fishing some of this won't apply but it's still a good read and reminder for you guys with older heating equipment in there homes. Even if your furnaces are still running with no apparent problems regular inspection is still required, cracked heat exchangers can be hard to detect with out proper inspection by trained professional people.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by Jack&7

Almost got gassed once in a buddy's tent...and he had the double flower model. One flower would run great...the other not so much.

But I notice my eyes start to burn when I am exposed to CO...that is what alerted me. Had to go outside to feel better again.

Gotta watch these things....

I remember that day when that happened and it is one of my first clues to air out and exit.....

I was out last week with my boy....I was out watching the tip ups and he was in the tent jigging and started to complain that his eyes were burning...eventhough, the vents and part of the door were open....

I noticed this happening more with low heat compared to full open heat. I assume higher the heat, co2 is burning off faster. I have a single flower.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by waterninja

I always figured venting would be enough, but now I'm not so sure.

I was in the same boat until I saw pics of buddy in the hospital and was told that he had 85% CO saturation which is high enough to cause death...

I have no idea if the buddy heater O2 sensors would actually protect a person from this or not. I always figured because CO was slightly lighter then air and because it comes off the warm heater that it would rise and get trapped at the top of the tent. The buddy heaters sit low unless you have them on top of a milk crate etc so you might get a fair bit of build up before they might actually shut off. Seems like obvious science to me but whether or not it actually happens that way I am not sure.

No idea on CO monitors, I believe one buddy tried one but it was always going off(too sensitive) so he stopped using it. Not sure if there are some that work better then others or not.

[dodgeboy1979]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I was in the same boat until I saw pics of buddy in the hospital and was told that he had 85% CO saturation which is high enough to cause death...

I have no idea if the buddy heater O2 sensors would actually protect a person from this or not. I always figured because CO was slightly lighter then air and because it comes off the warm heater that it would rise and get trapped at the top of the tent. The buddy heaters sit low unless you have them on top of a milk crate etc so you might get a fair bit of build up before they might actually shut off. Seems like obvious science to me but whether or not it actually happens that way I am not sure.

No idea on CO monitors, I believe one buddy tried one but it was always going off(too sensitive) so he stopped using it. Not sure if there are some that work better then others or not.

a 4 head monitor would work, like used in the oil patch, they monitor o2, CO, LEL and H2S. This would likely be the best and can be worn on the person in the tent.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by dodgeboy1979

a 4 head monitor would work, like used in the oil patch, they monitor o2, CO, LEL and H2S. This would likely be the best and can be worn on the person in the tent.

For 500 bux

Then you need a bump station with gas

[dodgeboy1979]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

For 500 bux

Then you need a bump station with gas

borrow one from work

[YeeHaw]

I bought a detector from crappy tire, even after holding it up to my diesel heater and the exhaust of my auger for five minutes the number still stayed at zero. After forgetting my heater on in the garage one night, the number peaked at 242ppm.

[Sooner]

Scary stuff, glad your friend is going to be ok. Not sure i would try to fix it after a bad incident. Buy a new one maybe?

[buckmaster]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I have talked about these heaters lots and about how I don't think they are an issue as we and others we know have used them many days and nights without issue.

That just changed though as I was just chatting with a fishing buddy and fellow AO member that ended up in the hospital with CO poisoning this week after using a sunflower on low in a 4 man tent like he has done many times before. He says he had the vents open but started feeling ill very quickly and ended up having to get an ambulance ride to the hospital and has been recovering for a couple days.

Still don't know what caused it, these heaters are very simple so all I can think of is that it wasn't running right for some reason(bad propane maybe) and he didn't realize it or ignored it. Once buddy is better he is going to try and figure out if there is something obviously wrong with his but will have to wait and see.

Just a word of caution for those that use these heaters. If it isn't acting right try to figure out what is wrong with it or don't use it. Also having a CO monitor, something I have never worried about before probably is a good idea. I don't know if any particular monitor/brand works better then others but if anyone has recommendations I am sure others would be interested to know about them.

I agree they can be dangerous. The vents on the tents are probably not adequate enough. I use my sunflower heater in my 4 man and 8 man tent with all the vents open and the man door half open. Never had any issues.

[buckmaster]

Originally Posted by YeeHaw

I bought a detector from crappy tire, even after holding it up to my diesel heater and the exhaust of my auger for five minutes the number still stayed at zero. After forgetting my heater on in the garage one night, the number peaked at 242ppm.

Holding the unit on the exhaust wont do anything to alarm the unit.

[MAC]

Used a Coleman Naphtha gas heater for years never worried about Co2
Probably got exposed many times and got lucky without heavy exposure, it was always in the back of my mind and did make an effort to vent when using the heater.
Not until I started taking out the kids did I really worry about it.
Now whether in the trailer or ice fishing in a pop up or shack I have a a big buddy heater that serves our needs and with the low oxygen shut off or not I carry a battery operated Co2 moniter. Its sits in the trailer or on a ledge or table in the pop up.

This one https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.c...000134278.html

I have not done a test in the actual tent but it has a test button that works.
Not the best but works for me and a little piece of mind.
Maybe a test in a closed up pop up shelter is in order.

MAC

[Willowtrail]

I always run 2, 1 1/2" abs pipes under the flap in my tent. One at each end I can feel air transferring through them so I feel safer about it and then open the top vents and even crack a window as well.

Hope your buddy recovers

[Dewey Cox]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Be aware:

Symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning
Carbon monoxide can cause health problems before you even notice that it's present. Breathing it in reduces your body's ability to carry oxygen in your blood. Exposure to the gas can cause carbon monoxide poisoning (CO poisoning) and can be dangerous to your health.

At low levels, effects include flu-like symptoms, such as:

tiredness
headaches
shortness of breath
impaired motor functions, such as:
muscle weakness
partial or total loss of function of a body part (limb or limbs)
At high levels, or if you are exposed to low levels for long periods of time, you can experience:

dizziness
chest pain
poor vision
difficulty thinking
At very high levels, it can cause:

convulsions
coma
death

Be aware of the symptoms, even a co detector does not guarantee your life.

Thanks for posting this.
I think people are eating alot more CO while they icefish than they think.
Even with the door open, I sometimes get chest pains icefishing. (I don't get chest pains any other time)
I think I need to find heaters with chimneys.

[Evil69]

I am a licenced gasfitter / gas contractor with 15+ years in the trade and have been involved in CO poisoning investigations regarding other contractors.

I run a Mr Heater( Canadian version) 4k-9k BTU heater in a 2-3 man hub tent and did some testing before using it.
I tested with both my combustion anylizer and my UEI hand held CO monitor.
What I found....
O2 safety(thermocouple) trips at 17-18% O2 There is no actual O2 sensor on the unit, it uses flame rectification to open the main valve so in essence if O2 levels drop pilot flame decreases and the Thermocouple drops out and closes the N/C (normally closed)valve.

Mine runs 99% AFUE (efficiency) on high and 98% on low. This was determined by building a make shift Sheet metal box to test it in so there is a correction factor to be considered. I spoke with the manufacture and they claim 99.5%. I would tend to agree.

Hands down the Mr.Heater is the safest indoor heater on the market and fish tents are closer to indoor conditions than outdoor.

Sun flowers aka tank tops are NOT designed for indoor use. I know they have been used for years in ice tents all across this country but they were never designed to be used in confined space. The general rule is 3 sq feet of fresh air intake per 100000 BTU I don't know of any tent manufacture that have vents that size in their tents. Tank tops are notorious for incomplete combustion on low setting as they age, another factor to be considered.

As a general rule even with my buddy heater once an hour I get out and get a little fresh air just incase. I witnessed the after effects of 8 hrs of exposure at 195 PPM to a child and it wasn't pretty, she didn't die but she had a long recovery.

The main thing is if your experiencing symptoms...get out and get some fresh air.

Sorry for going off but this is something very near and dear to my heart, especially when kids are involved.

For anyone in my area with concerns about their set up and your fishing Emerson or Mcgregor and I'm not out of town on a shutdown shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to bring my hand held to the lake and run a test on your tent. Or if you are wanting to buy one of your own they can be picked up at most plumbing supply places for around $200-$300

[Evil69]

One more thing to add....the specific gravity of air is 1 and the sg of Co is .9669 almost identical with Co being a very very little bit lighter. The motion of jigging or a simple cough is enough to stir the CO around your tent so it does not matter if your heater is elevated.

[Supergrit]

http://zodi.com/tent-heaters
A little more money may be more to carry but safer.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Evil69

Sun flowers aka tank tops are NOT designed for indoor use. I know they have been used for years in ice tents all across this country but they were never designed to be used in confined space. The general rule is 3 sq feet of fresh air intake per 100000 BTU I don't know of any tent manufacture that have vents that size in their tents. Tank tops are notorious for incomplete combustion on low setting as they age, another factor to be considered.

Most tents would actually be close to that.

Sunflower on low is 9000 lets say 10000 for ease of calculation which means need 3/10 sq foot or 43.2 sq inches(around 40 for 9000). The vents are around 4x4 so would have 32 sq in plus if you use pipes or leave a window cracked etc.

What makes these heaters less efficient? The larger grid spacing of the element?

[muzzy]

Just a heads up if you do suspect CO2 exposure get yourself checked out at hospital. I had a hunting buddy from Manitoba lose his 24 yr old daughter to Co2 poisoning. She was camping with friends and had all the symptoms but they got out of camper in time and she started feeling bit better. Went home to bed and she didnt wake up in morning. From what I understand a large dose stays in bloodsystem for quite a while and she passed away

[Evil69]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Most tents would actually be close to that.

Sunflower on low is 9000 lets say 10000 for ease of calculation which means need 3/10 sq foot or 43.2 sq inches(around 40 for 9000). The vents are around 4x4 so would have 32 sq in plus if you use pipes or leave a window cracked etc.

What makes these heaters less efficient? The larger grid spacing of the element?

your missing the venting portion of the equation, FA can't be combined with exhaust.....yes approx 40 sq in fresh air intake for 9000 BTU but you will also require approx 40 sq in for exhaust. 4x4 is 16 sq in so you would need 5 4x4 vents for proper circulation. Your tent might have that but all three I have owned only had 2 4x4 vents. Yes opening a door or adding pipes will help but who really buys a tent to keep the door open? The 3 sq ft per 100K is a guideline each manufacture is different, it should be in your manual.

From every manual on sunflowers I have read......
A.
WARNING: This heater is an unvented appliance and
MUST be used ONLY in a well ventilated area. NEVER
attempt to operate the heater inside any vehicle, camper or
enclosure.


The Tank tops are mesh burners the Mr Heaters are Ceramic...huge difference in combustion as the ceramic pre heats the fuel gas mix prior to combustion...mesh does not. ceramic is porous and therefore has greater surface area than an equivalent wire mesh. Alot of the new Cleaver Brooks commercial boilers have gone to the ceramic cones because they can get 99% AFUE, if I'm not mistaken the Viessmann Vitocrossel boilers went ceramic too because of the efficiency but don't quote me on that one as I haven't worked on one since they first came out, they were new tech when I went to Viessmann Acadamy a decade ago.

"Just a heads up if you do suspect CO2 exposure get yourself checked out at hospital. I had a hunting buddy from Manitoba lose his 24 yr old daughter to Co2 poisoning. She was camping with friends and had all the symptoms but they got out of camper in time and she started feeling bit better. Went home to bed and she didnt wake up in morning. From what I understand a large dose stays in bloodsystem for quite a while and she passed away"

Sad but very true and good advice .

Stay safe people, no fish is worth your life.