Cabelas firearms sales

[qwert]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

This is another example of reading the Act verbatim and failing to apply a "reasonable" application.

If you feel that you could confidently stand before a Judge on a Trafficking or Unauthorized Transfer charge and use a defense of "Well he told me he had a PAL", then a wish you luck.

Would a Judge or Jury find that you could "reasonably" determine if the individual was authorized to possess firearms by only asking if he had a PAL? Maybe with a slick lawer and a questionable Judge would might sell it, but I am doubtful.

I will ask you, if a 18 yesr old kid in High School wants to loan his car to a classmate, should the owner verify the classmate has a driver's licence. How do you feel the owner could reasonable determine if the classmate had a licence????? Mabe ask to see it? If the classmate kills 2 students in a crosswalk while borrowing the car, would the owner have any liability for loaning his car to an unlincenced driver? Would, "Billy told me he had a licence" save his butt.

With respect, and AFAIK,
It is well accepted that it is logically impossible to prove a negative, and therefore,
It is not the responsibility of any Criminal Code defendant to prove innocence.
It is the burden of the prosecution to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the transferor 'had reason to believe' that the transferee did not have a PAL.

Regarding your example of loaning a car to an unqualified person, I suspect you refer to the civil and not criminal liability, and we both know the burden of proof in a civil matter is the much lower 'on balance of probability'.

I suspect that we are in agreement that the Act is poorly written and unclear as to precisely what actions (if any) are required by a transferor. I suspect that all of us would prefer more specific guidance, and strongly object to the criminal hazard the entire Act exposes us to. The cynic in me suspects that the lack of clarity is by design, and intended for the purposes and benefit of those that drafted it.

For the record and to clear up any misunderstanding. I personally choose to only transfer firearms personally and face to face and with cash. I have no objection to showing my PAL to a transferor for their inspection and comfort, but it does not leave my hand and I will not permit them to record any of the information. I would not transfer a firearm to any person who did not produce a PAL for my inspection. IMHO, none of these are required by the Act but give comfort to me and those I do business with.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by qwert

With respect, and AFAIK,
It is well accepted that it is logically impossible to prove a negative, and therefore,
It is not the responsibility of any Criminal Code defendant to prove innocence.
It is the burden of the prosecution to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the transferor 'had reason to believe' that the transferee did not have a PAL.

Regarding your example of loaning a car to an unqualified person, I suspect you refer to the civil and not criminal liability, and we both know the burden of proof in a civil matter is the much lower 'on balance of probability'.

I suspect that we are in agreement that the Act is poorly written and unclear as to precisely what actions (if any) are required by a transferor. I suspect that all of us would prefer more specific guidance, and strongly object to the criminal hazard the entire Act exposes us to. The cynic in me suspects that the lack of clarity is by design, and intended for the purposes and benefit of those that drafted it.

For the record and to clear up any misunderstanding. I personally choose to only transfer firearms personally and face to face and with cash. I have no objection to showing my PAL to a transferor for their inspection and comfort, but it does not leave my hand and I will not permit them to record any of the information. I would not transfer a firearm to any person who did not produce a PAL for my inspection. IMHO, none of these are required by the Act but give comfort to me and those I do business with.

Good Luck, YMMV.

"""Yes""" I agree 100% and very well said !!

[Buckhunter123]

Two New Years ago I was talking to a girl that worked at canadian tire she was the manager and was telling me they recorded the info when you bought a firearm. And she said the cops came and borrowed the binder and brought it back. She thinks it was a backdoor registry so there you go. Backdoor registry prob does exsist

[shep dog]

Originally Posted by Buckhunter123

Two New Years ago I was talking to a girl that worked at canadian tire she was the manager and was telling me they recorded the info when you bought a firearm. And she said the cops came and borrowed the binder and brought it back. She thinks it was a backdoor registry so there you go. Backdoor registry prob does exsist

You're still going on about this???

Yup, Canadian Tire is the backbone of the federal government's conspiracy to maintain a top-secret long gun registry. If you can't trust the word of the Canadian Tire gun-counter lady, who can you trust?

Does CT carry tin foil?

[JD848]

Originally Posted by Bolete

You are flat out wrong, and it is a big deal. Read it yourself and become educated.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/b...703-81-eng.htm

If the store owner refuses to sell me a firearm because I don't want to show my pal or fac theirs no sale in the stores I go to .I show it to him an go on my way,it's his store and business and what he wants I have no control over what he does with it.I could go and sell that gun at the gun show the next day and it does not belong to me anymore and it could trade 5 times at that show that day,history except for the part of the gun dealer having my personal id,no I don't like give out my id,but they have it on file because that's how I got the pal,you might not want to show your fac,but when yours expirers ,don't give them any info either and see what happens.Also if you think the gun registry was deleted theirs plenty of hackers south of us and in this country that might have snuck in. I know what lots off guys think about their personal id or pal and I believe they have the right to feel that way about their private life. I am an old fashion in my way off thinking but I live a normal life and store my ammo and firearms properly and go with the flow.Come in my home and take any of my personal property and I don't care if it's the coffee maker i will do everything by the book to keep my stuff,someday the gov may try and take are guns away and then their will be big wall that comes up.AS far as my education you can go pound sand till you know what x3 ..Don't want to argue with no one on alberta forum.In the long run we ,all gun owners want the same thing. CHEERS

[Luxor]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Do you honestly expect people to take you seriously, when you keep referring to the store as Cabalas?

Best laugh of the night haha
But at least he added the apostrophe on the last spelling.
Baby steps lol

Cabalas was great long ago before hitting Canada.
I ordered alot of stuff.
Now I couldnt care less about them.

[agentsmith]

Originally Posted by shep dog

You're still going on about this???

Yup, Canadian Tire is the backbone of the federal government's conspiracy to maintain a top-secret long gun registry. If you can't trust the word of the Canadian Tire gun-counter lady, who can you trust?

Does CT carry tin foil?

Even if true, that's not to say it's a broad policy of the RCMP, it could just be something the local detachment is doing, or even just one or a few officers. Collecting data for their own little unofficial registry, if you will.

I just bought a rifle at Wholesale Sports, and of course the guy asked for my PAL card, said something about needing to check if it was valid, and held onto it for a minute as he was on the computer. I thought nothing of it at the time, but now I presume he was recording the number. Which I'd previously presumed they were required to do anyway. Too late now. But whatever, it doesn't really matter... The Man has his ways of finding out if I have a rifle, especially in these times.

[Bolete]

Originally Posted by newrteam

If the store owner refuses to sell me a firearm because I don't want to show my pal or fac theirs no sale in the stores I go to .I show it to him an go on my way,it's his store and business and what he wants I have no control over what he does with it.I could go and sell that gun at the gun show the next day and it does not belong to me anymore and it could trade 5 times at that show that day,history except for the part of the gun dealer having my personal id,no I don't like give out my id,but they have it on file because that's how I got the pal,you might not want to show your fac,but when yours expirers ,don't give them any info either and see what happens.Also if you think the gun registry was deleted theirs plenty of hackers south of us and in this country that might have snuck in. I know what lots off guys think about their personal id or pal and I believe they have the right to feel that way about their private life. I am an old fashion in my way off thinking but I live a normal life and store my ammo and firearms properly and go with the flow.Come in my home and take any of my personal property and I don't care if it's the coffee maker i will do everything by the book to keep my stuff,someday the gov may try and take are guns away and then their will be big wall that comes up.AS far as my education you can go pound sand till you know what x3 ..Don't want to argue with no one on alberta forum.In the long run we ,all gun owners want the same thing. CHEERS

Perhaps if you read the link I provided, it would put the errors you made in this post into perspective -

"If the rcmp want to know where all the guns went in the store the owner has to keep a record or his tag pulled,been that way for decades.That will never change .No big deal."

The store owner is under no obligation from the RCMP or anyone else to maintain records of who bought what non-restricted firearm. What you stated was true decades ago, back in the FAC days, but it isn't so now. It HAS changed.
Of course, you are going to be required to SHOW a valid PAL to purchase a firearm - there is simply no legal requirement for the store to record this information.

CHEERS

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Bolete

Perhaps if you read the link I provided, it would put the errors you made in this post into perspective -

"If the rcmp want to know where all the guns went in the store the owner has to keep a record or his tag pulled,been that way for decades.That will never change .No big deal."

The store owner is under no obligation from the RCMP or anyone else to maintain records of who bought what non-restricted firearm. What you stated was true decades ago, back in the FAC days, but it isn't so now. It HAS changed.
Of course, you are going to be required to SHOW a valid PAL to purchase a firearm - there is simply no legal requirement for the store to record this information.

CHEERS

I am in complete agreement with this post.

While most of us are disappointed in the failure of the CPC Government to revoke Bill C-68 as promised, and fear that the slow pace of the current Bill C-42 'Common Sense Firearms Licensing Act' may result in it dying on the order paper when Parliament is recessed for the coming election. The fact remains that they not only revoked the LGR, but also the (back-door registry) ledger system in use during and prior to the FAC years. They have also refused to ratify the UN Arms Trade Treaty which requires that signatories maintain a domestic registry of all small arms. We can be sure that if the CPC does not win the coming election, that the Liberals, NDP, and CGC will be actively working to implement both a 'Ledger System', which with electronic filing will become a defacto 'Registry', AND ratify the UN Arms Trade Treaty (which is a LOT more difficult to revoke than a simple Act of Parliament).

I disagree with many of the domestic, and most of the foreign policies of the current Government, but IMHO, the CPC Harper Government is our best and only friend in Ottawa, and we need to help them retain power in the hope that they will continue to enact legislation favorable to gun owners and shooters, and to oppose the lunatic simplistic hoplophobes of all the other parties and the CGC.

Good Luck, YMMV

[msguns]

Meanwhile, if anybody has interest in an unissued, matching number SKS, Cabela's has 'hand-picked' some and put them on sale ending April 29th... http://www.cabelas.ca/product/78683/...5-6dayonlysale

[RZR]

Originally Posted by chuck

Are you special enough that you do not have to produce a PAL when you purchase a firearm?

Go onto your favourite gun stores website, purchase a firearm, then get back to us on what was recorded.

Yup!!!

Don't purchase online.