Help need a Plumber

[alpineman]

I'm looking for a plumber for my in floor heating system on my house, I'm between Devon and Spruce Grove just west of Edmonton.
I have used one Plumber from Spruce Grove but they come in do a few tweeks charge a couple hundred buck and leave a Month later the problem comes back. I don't think they now what they are doing with this system.
Want someone who is familiar with boilers as now its making a funny noise and the pressure relief valve that the last guy changed is leaking.
Looking for someone reliable that wont rape me on price to do nothing.

[CaberTosser]

If you're blowing the pressure relief valve there are a few possible causes:

1: You're running too high a system pressure (system should operate no higher than 2/3 of the relief valves pressure rating)

2: Your system expansion tank has insufficient pressure and isn't compensating for system fluid expansion when its heated (its internal bladder could be broken, or in the case of an older open tank it has simply become waterlogged)

3: Insufficient circulation causing excess temperature rise at heat exchanger(possibly failing circ pump(s), plugged system strainer, failed zone valves, failed pressure bypass, scaled heat exchanger, etc)



Based on your 'funny noise' description I might lean towards a circ pump as a prime suspect.

[CaberTosser]

Another possibility is that your system feeder/pressure reducing valve may be leaking and introducing excessive pressure to your system. Hopefully your pressure guages are accurate, what readings are you getting?

[alpineman]

Ya i'm thinking it might be the circ pump just not real familliar with the system will need to have someone take a look at it.
The heating system is a Heat Link and the boiler is a Super Hot Saturn Series here is a pic of what I think is the Circ pump its what is starting to make noise.

photo1.jpg

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Another possibility is that your system feeder/pressure reducing valve may be leaking and introducing excessive pressure to your system. Hopefully your pressure guages are accurate, what readings are you getting?

When I checked it earlier this morning it was showing 0 PSI I added water to it and now when its heating its showing about 15 PSI at 120F

[alpineman]

I'm also thinking he put to small of a pressure relief valve on as when I add water to the system it blows real easy and continues to dribble out after. Thats where I'm loosing fluid.
Its so bad that this morning the system stopped working til I added water to it.

[Stu]

Shaft should be horizontal.
Probably no flow.

[Elk Hunter17]

We use parkland heating and ac, they've been good for us.

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by Elk Hunter17

We use parkland heating and ac, they've been good for us.

Thanks Elk Hunter

[billie]

Further to Caber's suggestions, if your expansion tank does not have any air in it, you will get thermal pumping through the pressue relief valve and the symtoms you describe. An easy check is to locate the valve on the tank and ensure you have air or air pressure in it. If it has an internal bladder and you get water, it needs to be replaced (recharged if it has doesn't have a bladder). Newer ones should have air/water separation inside.

Just changed mine in December for the that reason and you don't need a service call, easy to replace. About $140 IIRC, but at a wholesaler which likely aren't open on the weekend.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Stu

Shaft should be horizontal.
Probably no flow.

The motor shaft doesn't have to be horizontal, it just can't be mounted 'motor up' to avoid an air trap in a wet-rotor pump. The pumps disperse their heat into the system fluid, if there's an air trap in the motor housing the motor isn't being cooled, and the motor windings overheat and short circuit. His is 'motor down', so it cannot form an air trap. I always mount with the motor on the horizontal, but that orientation is permitted.

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by billie

Further to Caber's suggestions, if your expansion tank does not have any air in it, you will get thermal pumping through the pressue relief valve and the symtoms you describe. An easy check is to locate the valve on the tank and ensure you have air or air pressure in it. If it has an internal bladder and you get water, it needs to be replaced (recharged if it has doesn't have a bladder). Newer ones should have air/water separation inside.

Just changed mine in December for the that reason and you don't need a service call, easy to replace. About $140 IIRC, but at a wholesaler which likely aren't open on the weekend.

Going to check the Expansion tank Do you know what the air pressure should be at?

[alpineman]

K just checked the Pressure in the tank I'm presuming the blader is shot as liquid is coming out of the air valve it was showing 13PSI on my air pressure gauge. Here are a couple pics of my tank.

[CaberTosser]

That exp tank is toast for sure. One thing I suggest when replacing it is to put a 1/2" ball valve between the system and the tank, this will allow you to replace it without spilling hot water all over tarnation. Between the shut off valve and the tank put in a tee with a hose valve in the branch; this allows testing of the exp tank. To test an expansion tank you need to isolate it from the system (first ball valve) then drain the fluid through the hose bibb so that your tire pressure gauge you set to the exp tank air chuck reads the bladder air pressure rather than the systems liquid pressure. An expansion tank bladder cannot be checked without bleeding off the systems liquid pressure.

[pgavey]

Had a problem at my shop last winter PR valve blowing of over night and making a mess in the boiler room, Changed out exp tank fixed the problem.

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

That exp tank is toast for sure. One thing I suggest when replacing it is to put a 1/2" ball valve between the system and the tank, this will allow you to replace it without spilling hot water all over tarnation. Between the shut off valve and the tank put in a tee with a hose valve in the branch; this allows testing of the exp tank. To test an expansion tank you need to isolate it from the system (first ball valve) then drain the fluid through the hose bibb so that your tire pressure gauge you set to the exp tank air chuck reads the bladder air pressure rather than the systems liquid pressure. An expansion tank bladder cannot be checked without bleeding off the systems liquid pressure.

Thanks CaberTosser
Wish you were closer I'd hire you to come and check out the system and have a couple beer,
Do you know the best place to pick up a tank on Monday,
Great point on the tee with a hose valve and ball valve I'll defanetly do that.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The motor shaft doesn't have to be horizontal, it just can't be mounted 'motor up' to avoid an air trap in a wet-rotor pump. The pumps disperse their heat into the system fluid, if there's an air trap in the motor housing the motor isn't being cooled, and the motor windings overheat and short circuit. His is 'motor down', so it cannot form an air trap. I always mount with the motor on the horizontal, but that orientation is permitted.

Grundfos doesn't recommend installation in that orientation.
I guess taco's are different.

See page four.
http://ca.grundfos.com/content/dam/G...P%20Series.pdf

[fishunter327]

Not a big fan of Taco.

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by Stu

Grundfos doesn't recommend installation in that orientation.
I guess taco's are different.

See page four.
http://ca.grundfos.com/content/dam/G...P%20Series.pdf

So I should change it to be motor horizontal?. Might be a big job as no room where its at.

Should I get another WATTS Tank or what would you guys suggest?

[Stu]

Not recommended by taco either, but they also say it can be "motor up".
Have a look.
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/102-054.pdf

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by Stu

Not recommended by taco either, but they also say it can be "motor up".
Have a look.
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/102-054.pdf

After closer look it can be changed to horizontal. the motor is a TACO

[CaberTosser]

These units are good space savers for that suggestion I made regarding an exp tank isolation & bleed assembly:



The left hand port is intended to introduce your system feed from, but you could just screw a 1/2" plug into it.

Stu: I'll have to find which manufacturer had the bottom mount configuration allowed. Its usually the top-mount ones I'm finding with burnt-out motors all the flipping time. I don't think it would have been Armstrong as I don't use them as frequently a Grundfos or Wilo.

Alpine: You could find an expansion tank and one of those valves I linked at Cronkhite or Wolseley in Edmonton.

[alpineman]

Thanks CaberTosser

[TheLegend]

Try Forbs mechanical. They do free evaluations and are experienced with boilers.

[CaberTosser]

While I'm always happy to help with advice, it's still a good idea to get a reputable local company to send out a journeyman tech to inspect your system. There also the possibility that you may be suffering from more than one single issue. I always just love the calls where I have to repair one thing in order for it to be possible to troubleshoot any further (repeat trips for parts, anyone? )

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

While I'm always happy to help with advice, it's still a good idea to get a reputable local company to send out a journeyman tech to inspect your system. There also the possibility that you may be suffering from more than one single issue.

Totally agree and will have someone come and take a look at my system.

[mudbug]

Yep I agree with Caber, the tank is toast. Check out Bartle and Gibson in Spruce Grove on Monday, I'm sure they will have one or can get find or get one in a day or so

[twofifty]

Caber your plumbing posts are a goldmine of practical diagnostic info. Thx.

[alpineman]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Caber your plumbing posts are a goldmine of practical diagnostic info. Thx.

Yes they are can't thank you enought.