arm peace officers petition

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Ambulance attendants deal with all these same people and more. Are you suggesting they should carry as well! We have real cops in this province that carry side arms. Basic security peace officers should not in my opinion be able to. They carry other measures, they have no need to carry deadly force weapons, nor do they have the qualifications or training to do so

Sure, arm the ambulance people too; along with any upstanding citizen who passes the exact same safety course given to others who already carry. Heck, EMT's already deal with life and death situations on a frequent basis.

It's a pretty ridiculous statement to make that thy don't have the training to carry; that's obvious as they're not presently authorized or trained to do so. If they were authorized, they would be trained, it's as simple as that. You think for some reason they're untrainable? What's a qualification to carry a deadly force weapon? We give drivers licenses to 16 year olds who pass some proficiency tests, there's no requirements for buying knives or hammers; I can right now go buy as many gallons of diesel fuel and all the fertilizer I can afford. You don't give you fellow man much credit; I know there are some who should not, but you paint broad stokes with a wide brush in your skepticism.

[Kale_M]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Ambulance attendants deal with all these same people and more. Are you suggesting they should carry as well! We have real cops in this province that carry side arms. Basic security peace officers should not in my opinion be able to. They carry other measures, they have no need to carry deadly force weapons, nor do they have the qualifications or training to do so

Most of the time the police are there with the EMS guys anyway. Guess who is in the hospital and deal with the violent people... us! And I never said CPO's in be hospital need sidearms. We have back up always available and it is 30 seconds away and we respond to almost all calls in pairs. CPO's in the county are all buy themselves. Arm them!

[mark-edmonton]

There are many occupations that are at a daily high risk from violent idiots. I just don't buy the argument that a bylaw officer which is also considered a peace officer should carry deadly force. Yes anyone can be trained to use a gun but that doesn't mean they should carry one. And police do not attend all calls that ems attend. Only ones that are called in as suspicious. I have been sent on many calls where we were there and had to call the police after the fact because of possible violence. A monkey can be trained to use a gun!! Like I said just my opinion but if you want to carry a gun become a cop of sheriff. I worked in the past as a federally liscenced bodyguard we were not permitted to carry and there were constant possibilities.



Look at all the peace officers you know. Would you arm them all!! I would have confidence if very few. Like I said they are able to carry other non deadly protective measures

[smithy]

In Alberta, Peace Officers are a creation of statute (Peace Officer Act). The Peace Officer Regulations (s.4) already authorizes the carrying of weapons such as:

1. OC Spray,
2. Baton,
3. Shotgun,
4. Conducted Energy Device,
5. Tear Gas and,
6. Firearm (if employed/engaged by the Crown,-Federal or Provincial).

We need to clarify what we are debating since it is clear that the government has already enabled Peace Officers to carry weapons. The decision, however, is made on a discretionary case by case basis and such decisions are to be made by the Minister responsible for the Act.

I think that the system already in place is adequate. Peace Officers can encompass a broad range of duties. They are meant to supplement, and not replace, policing duties in the province. While some peace officers may be encounering elevated risk/danger on a regular basis (e.g. highway patrol) other may not (e.g. bylaw officer enforcing noxious weeds).

It would be inappropriate, in my opinion, to give every Peace Officer a weapon by virtue of his or her title only. Some Peace Officers may very well need to carry a weapon and if that is the case then the Minister should authorize it in the situations where it is warranted.

Further food for thought:

- Some peace Officers may not be armed because the employer did not make application to arm them

- if the employer is liable for the acts/omissions of its officers, the may not want them armed for liability purposes

- some officers themselves may ot want to be armed (similar to many of the unarmed CBSA officers who were not happy to hear of the remandate to arm more officers)

[Blake]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Look at all the peace officers you know. Would you arm them all? I would have confidence if very few. Like I said they are able to carry other non deadly protective measures

Fixed it for you. And to answer your question, no I wouldn't want all of the peace officers I've met to be armed. They don't all need to be armed. I don't want half of the welders and iron workers I've worked with to have drivers licences either. And if it was up to me half the paramedics I see in amubulances would be digging ditches. I've never seen a peace officer punch a patient in the face. I can't say the same for ems...

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

There are many occupations that are at a daily high risk from violent idiots. I just don't buy the argument that a bylaw officer which is also considered a peace officer should carry deadly force. Yes anyone can be trained to use a gun but that doesn't mean they should carry one. And police do not attend all calls that ems attend. Only ones that are called in as suspicious. I have been sent on many calls where we were there and had to call the police after the fact because of possible violence. A monkey can be trained to use a gun!! Like I said just my opinion but if you want to carry a gun become a cop of sheriff. I worked in the past as a federally liscenced bodyguard we were not permitted to carry and there were constant possibilities.



Look at all the peace officers you know. Would you arm them all!! I would have confidence if very few. Like I said they are able to carry other non deadly protective measures

Mark .. my opinion is simalar to yours. No one said that being a PO would be without risk, so PO's...live with it! The large majority of Canadians don't want you to carry...live with it! IMO, if PO's got extensive self defence trainning, the few that are bothered to confront some of the unpleasantries that are part of their job, would feel a bit more confident. In my youth, I did some bar "bouncer" work, and can tell you that every night I found myself in "threatened" circumstances. Having a gun would have likely got me or some innocent bystander killed. Guns for PO's in hospitals or schools...wake up.
Here's the answer...spend 5 - 7 years in martial arts, supplimented by some self defence trainning and you won't feel so threatened. All too many think that carrying a gun is the answer, perhaps because it is the easiest route to make them feel personally secure. Step up PO's and get the physical skills to do your job with confidence...all it takes is a bit of work...albeit, more than strapping on a pistol.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Mark .. my opinion is simalar to yours. No one said that being a PO would be without risk, so PO's...live with it! The large majority of Canadians don't want you to carry...live with it! IMO, if PO's got extensive self defence trainning, the few that are bothered to confront some of the unpleasantries that are part of their job, would feel a bit more confident. In my youth, I did some bar "bouncer" work, and can tell you that every night I found myself in "threatened" circumstances. Having a gun would have likely got me or some innocent bystander killed. Guns for PO's in hospitals or schools...wake up.
Here's the answer...spend 5 - 7 years in martial arts, supplimented by some self defence trainning and you won't feel so threatened. All too many think that carrying a gun is the answer, perhaps because it is the easiest route to make them feel personally secure. Step up PO's and get the physical skills to do your job with confidence...all it takes is a bit of work...albeit, more than strapping on a pistol.

If you go back and read the posts by the CPO's and supporters the vast majority are all in agreement that the only CPO's that need to be armed are the ones that find themselves in a situation where there is no other options or backup available.

Show me one Albertan that would expose him or herself to any on the job danger without proper protection. Tell a glass cutter he can't wear gauntlets, or a meat cutter he can't wear his mail gloves, they should just quit if they don't want to get cut, find another way to support their families and not be such p*%ssies. Good luck. I wouldn't ask or expect that from anyone. So maybe it's you that should wake up.

So far, acording to polls, most Albertans are in favour of Peace Officers being armed. Live with it.

And clearly your post is a poorly disguised excuse to accuse CPO's of not being a "tough guy" like you.
I was 6 years in the reg force infantry, I bounced on Whyte ave and the downtown core in Edmonton for another 6 years, and in the 11 years I've worked with AHS I've dealt with more genuine tough guys, gangsters, convicts, junkies and creeps than you'll ever meet. I've been hit with steel, cut, punched, scratched, bitten, slapped and assaulted with bodily fluids. And neither me, or any of the CPO's I work with are afraid to confront anyone. Period.

[Boxer-O]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

How many people are there that think they support CCW but cannot find themselves supporting a Peace Officers right to protect themselves? I personally think this petition should be for everyone to protect themselves, but will support it as a stepping stone towards normalizing firearms; the more the merrier. By gradually affording more occupations the right to carry, each increment brings it closer to the masses.

^^^^^this^^^^

[260 Rem]

Like always guys, the proof is in the pudding ...if the majority want you armed..it will happen and we will live with it. For goodness sakes Blake, my post seems to have stirred your calm sense of demeanor...
Lots of Albertans expose thenselves to "on the job danger." The majority of my working career was in a school. I doubt that a day goes by that a teacher somewhere in Canada isn't threatened ...even assaulted. Don't hear teachers clamoring to carry batons in the classroom?
Some don't seem to understand that the reluctance to arm PO's has more to do with protecting the public than it does with protecting the PO.
You referenced a poll that said Albertans favored armed PO's ....source?????

[Loper]

Originally Posted by greylynx

You would be surprised about the number of cabbies who pack guns.

Very scary.

What's so scary? I've yet to hear of a cabbie going berserk shooting people. I've heard of several of them being murdered for a few bucks though.

[357mag]

Originally Posted by Loper

What's so scary? I've yet to hear of a cabbie going berserk shooting people. I've heard of several of them being murdered for a few bucks though.

Think he was more meaning how many cabbies illegally carrying a firearm. Also from what I've seen, many of them are a little crazy too

An armed society is a polite society

[Cal]

Lol, our local peace officer is a guy who got picked on lots through highshool and seems to enjoy using his position to throw his weight around without conciquence now. No way would I support him having a gun, my wife had to deal with him a couple weeks ago. Her and a friend were shooting on crown land, he showed up and asked to see registration for the rifles then tryed to tell them they couldnt shoot there and informed them that the police were on the way... what a goof. The cops showed up, made sure things were being done safely and said "no problem here".

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by Blake

If you go back and read the posts by the CPO's and supporters the vast majority are all in agreement that the only CPO's that need to be armed are the ones that find themselves in a situation where there is no other options or backup available.

Show me one Albertan that would expose him or herself to any on the job danger without proper protection. Tell a glass cutter he can't wear gauntlets, or a meat cutter he can't wear his mail gloves, they should just quit if they don't want to get cut, find another way to support their families and not be such p*%ssies. Good luck. I wouldn't ask or expect that from anyone. So maybe it's you that should wake up.

So far, acording to polls, most Albertans are in favour of Peace Officers being armed. Live with it.

And clearly your post is a poorly disguised excuse to accuse CPO's of not being a "tough guy" like you.
I was 6 years in the reg force infantry, I bounced on Whyte ave and the downtown core in Edmonton for another 6 years, and in the 11 years I've worked with AHS I've dealt with more genuine tough guys, gangsters, convicts, junkies and creeps than you'll ever meet. I've been hit with steel, cut, punched, scratched, bitten, slapped and assaulted with bodily fluids. And neither me, or any of the CPO's I work with are afraid to confront anyone. Period.

I too have experience in our military. I did 10 yrs and pulled the pin. I also work as a firefighter/ems. I have experienced all you have stated in your above post. Our job is no less risk than a cpo. No one is arguing to a medics or bus drivers or anyone else that is consistently in a
Risk based occupation. I still do not feel
That cpo should be armed with deadly force. I do feel they should be armed with defense mechanism such as spray, batons and other non lethal methods. I have worked in the private security sector for over 20 years on a part time basis. I feel the same as 260. Perhaps they need more self confidence in their ability. But I'm not willing to arm them to give that to them

[rancho-non-relaxo]

There are different levels of peace officers in alberta and with each level there are increased daily risks or potential risks. Their level of training also represents these stages. Peace officers must recertify with their Baton, Oc spray and PPCT (Hand to hand combat) every couple of years while Police seldom recertify or get continued education in proper techniques. Should all peace officers be give guns. No. They must go through the psych tests, the use of force continum training, the firearm training, and scenario training before they could legally carry sidarms.
Do they need this training. YES
Any public servant that has to respond to problems must be able to defend themselves against the worst case scenario.
Peace officers are usually on active patrol. This means they are exposed to many different situations on the street and have to control bad situations untill police show up to back them up.
Can Peace Officers arrest people? Yes they can.
Do peace Officers do traffic stops? Yes they do at all hours of the night and day.
Do peace officers deal with drunk and drugged people? Yes
So think on that and then sign the petition
Signed #67

[Blake]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Like always guys, the proof is in the pudding ...if the majority want you armed..it will happen and we will live with it. For goodness sakes Blake, my post seems to have stirred your calm sense of demeanor...
Lots of Albertans expose thenselves to "on the job danger." The majority of my working career was in a school. I doubt that a day goes by that a teacher somewhere in Canada isn't threatened ...even assaulted. Don't hear teachers clamoring to carry batons in the classroom?
Some don't seem to understand that the reluctance to arm PO's has more to do with protecting the public than it does with protecting the PO.
You referenced a poll that said Albertans favored armed PO's ....source?????

A teacher isn't being sent off by himself to the middle of nowhere to confront a problem/violent child.

Google "should teachers be armed" and tell me what you find...

And as far as my "calm sense of demeanor" (and you are/were/implying you were a teacher? Really?) This thread is full of comments referring to a job done by of honest hard working people in less than flattering terms. Yes there are some CPO's that would be better off doing something else but you can say the same about some teachers. IT guys and bartenders. If I were to start a thread wherein teachers were vilified and branded as lesser people mere days after one was murdered, I would expect a lot of upset teachers...


CBC poll. Vote to view

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ppearance.html

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

I too have experience in our military. I did 10 yrs and pulled the pin. I also work as a firefighter/ems. I have experienced all you have stated in your above post. Our job is no less risk than a cpo. No one is arguing to a medics or bus drivers or anyone else that is consistently in a
Risk based occupation. I still do not feel
That cpo should be armed with deadly force. I do feel they should be armed with defense mechanism such as spray, batons and other non lethal methods. I have worked in the private security sector for over 20 years on a part time basis. I feel the same as 260. Perhaps they need more self confidence in their ability. But I'm not willing to arm them to give that to them

Last time I checked EMS can, and do, flat out refuse to enter a dangerous situation without the police. Same with firefighters. And fair enough. And yup, you're gonna get smacked occasionally. You also have soft and chemical restraints, and more importantly, a partner.
And when's the last time a firefighter answered a call by themselves?
By saying that someone that is expected to confront a dangerous person on their own turf BY THEMSELVES, shouldn't have the option to use lethal force to protect their lives is narrow minded and unreasonable.
And again, I don't think all CPO's need sidearms, but some absolutely do.

[sourdough doug]

Originally Posted by Cal

Lol, our local peace officer is a guy who got picked on lots through highshool and seems to enjoy using his position to throw his weight around without conciquence now. No way would I support him having a gun, my wife had to deal with him a couple weeks ago. Her and a friend were shooting on crown land, he showed up and asked to see registration for the rifles then tryed to tell them they couldnt shoot there and informed them that the police were on the way... what a goof. The cops showed up, made sure things were being done safely and said "no problem here".

Hey Cal, I know of who you speak and you are "Bang on" in stating that there is no way an individual like this wannabe should be allowed anywheres near even a taser. Hopefully he is not packing. Even the local RC's see thru his disguise. And like you said, it's payback time for him and his inflated ego..It's to bad that there is not 10% of the local population that has any respect for his actions to date. All law enforcement agencies need our support but it seems like they are the last to realize that they shoot themselves in the foot ( no pun intended, or maybe there was) every time they hire this kind of person. It must be the money he puts in the coffers that keeps him employed... It will be very interesting how this all pans out.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by sourdough doug

Hey Cal, I know of who you speak and you are "Bang on" in stating that there is no way an individual like this wannabe should be allowed anywheres near even a taser. Hopefully he is not packing. Even the local RC's see thru his disguise. And like you said, it's payback time for him and his inflated ego..It's to bad that there is not 10% of the local population that has any respect for his actions to date. All law enforcement agencies need our support but it seems like they are the last to realize that they shoot themselves in the foot ( no pun intended, or maybe there was) every time they hire this kind of person. It must be the money he puts in the coffers that keeps him employed... It will be very interesting how this all pans out.

It's unfortunate your experience to date with peace officers has been with someone like that. And if things are as bad as you claim, there's no need to be stuck with somebody that shouldn't be doing the job.


http://www.solgps.alberta.ca/program...fficerAct.aspx

[sourdough doug]

[QUOTE=Blake;1566125]It's unfortunate your experience to date with peace officers has been with someone like that. And if things are as bad as you claim, there's no need to be stuck with somebody that shouldn't be doing the job.

Fortunately Blake, my experiences with Peace people have not been like this. If He would come on to me, as he has to others, I would probably drown on my own blood from having bitten my tongue so badly. It is as much fault of the people doing the hiring who have NO experience in personality profiling...They are just as scary as some these Rambos on the loose, not all,but far to many

[Cal]

[QUOTE=sourdough doug;1566153]

Originally Posted by Blake

It's unfortunate your experience to date with peace officers has been with someone like that. And if things are as bad as you claim, there's no need to be stuck with somebody that shouldn't be doing the job.

Fortunately Blake, my experiences with Peace people have not been like this. If He would come on to me, as he has to others, I would probably drown on my own blood from having bitten my tongue so badly. It is as much fault of the people doing the hiring who have NO experience in personality profiling...They are just as scary as some these Rambos on the loose, not all,but far to many

Just a few of the problems people have had with our town cop,

A ticket for having a messy yard, the morning after a tarp shed colapsed under heavy snowfall onto a co-workers Porche.

A warning that my buddies truck would be towed, which was insured and registered, because it was parked on the street infront of his house.

A ticket for having "To large of an exhaust pipe" whatever that means. The "pipe" he spoke of was merely a tip and the truck tested well within reasonable decible limits. Is there even a law concering exhaust pipe diameter?

A parking ticket left on my truck for having it parked facing the wrong way. It was running and parked infront of my driveway for a couple minuits while I ran in and grabbed my lunch that I had forgot.

You want these kinds of ego-maniacs carying handguns? Not me.

[260 Rem]

Blake - yes, I am a (retired) teacher...30 of my 32 yrs service designated principal. Didn't bother googling whether teachers should be armed beccause it is such a ridiculous idea. Like lots of other workers, teachers (and Principals) encounter some risk to their safety doing their jobs... no big deal, just part of the job.
Blake...First, the CBC poll you reference as supporting your statement that "most Albertans favor PO's being armed," does not suggest that Albertans want PO's to be armed with guns.... in fact, the majority says "NO". The majority you reference includes batons and pepper spray (and I have no issue with the later two items for "some" PO's). Secondly, if you interpret the CBC poll as being representative, you need some schoolin' regarding the terms "reliability and validity".
Blake, I never implied I was a tough guy with credentials like yours .. just that when I did some bar bouncer work in my youth.... and that carrying a gun would have been a bad idea. My suggestion that some solid martial arts training for PO's to improve self-confidence is also based on personal experience. I'm proud to say that in the thirty years I spent in martial arts, I never felt the need to "get physical" outside the dojo. My job put me in some tense situations , but my confidence kept me cool

[fish gunner]

let me get this strait baton & pepper spray somehow equate's to unarmed. kneejerk reaction AFTER the fact. sorry cant sign, had one run in with the county mounty. had his lunch money stole a few times too many.
my thought go out to the family of the guy that was killed, RIP.

[Highcountry]

Everyone has to deal and live with stupid people everyday peace officers are not real cops and if they are given side arms for dealing with these same people you and I deal with on a day to day basis why can't everyone have the right to protect themselves?????

Oh forgot to add if they can receive proper training and not be a police officer why can't I or any of us?

[Metalmike123]

If they get proper training, they should be allowed to carry. And so should every law abiding person out there that wants to live peacefully.

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by Blake

A teacher isn't being sent off by himself to the middle of nowhere to confront a problem/violent child.

Google "should teachers be armed" and tell me what you find...

And as far as my "calm sense of demeanor" (and you are/were/implying you were a teacher? Really?) This thread is full of comments referring to a job done by of honest hard working people in less than flattering terms. Yes there are some CPO's that would be better off doing something else but you can say the same about some teachers. IT guys and bartenders. If I were to start a thread wherein teachers were vilified and branded as lesser people mere days after one was murdered, I would expect a lot of upset teachers...


CBC poll. Vote to view

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ppearance.html




Last time I checked EMS can, and do, flat out refuse to enter a dangerous situation without the police. Same with firefighters. And fair enough. And yup, you're gonna get smacked occasionally. You also have soft and chemical restraints, and more importantly, a partner.
And when's the last time a firefighter answered a call by themselves?
By saying that someone that is expected to confront a dangerous person on their own turf BY THEMSELVES, shouldn't have the option to use lethal force to protect their lives is narrow minded and unreasonable.
And again, I don't think all CPO's need sidearms, but some absolutely do.

Yup we can refuse. But not all situations start out
Threatening. And that is why there may be no police on the scene. And I work for a combined dept that deals with 6 different communities. There are many occasions where 2 emt/firefighters are sent to an incident with no backup 100km from our home base. That includes call to many first nation reserves without backup. Not all firefighters work in a city Blake so your argument is only partially true. And as others have mentioned I also know several peace officers that have inflated egos already. Putting a gun in their hands is no safe to the community in my opinion!

And no I don't feel that not arming them with deadly force is unreasonable at all. Many of your peace officers are want to be cops. No way you can deny that. Their role is not to serve and
Protect like that of a police. There job is to control and enforce trivial laws.

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by Highcountry

Everyone has to deal and live with stupid people everyday peace officers are not real cops and if they are given side arms for dealing with these same people you and I deal with on a day to day basis why can't everyone have the right to protect themselves?????

Oh forgot to add if they can receive proper training and not be a police officer why can't I or any of us?

What he said!!!

[slivers86]

I've lost nearly all the respect I have for a lot of people on this forum due to some of the things I see in this thread. It's really too bad.

[Cal]

Dont worry Silvers, the feeling is probably mutual in many cases. Somehow I find the news that you are a peace officer very, very, unsuprising. That bit of info does very little other than re-enforce my previously established steriotype that I tend to paint peace officers with, as well as my previously established opinion on you guys being able to carry handguns.

Batons or pepper spray yes... heck I'd even support you guys having knives, and a white piece of paper to keep em on when its dark

[Lone_Wolf]

Originally Posted by slivers86

I've lost nearly all the respect I have for a lot of people on this forum due to some of the things I see in this thread. It's really too bad.

Same here. Way to many with the "Oh my God the Peace Officer caught me speeding and gave me a ticket! He must have been picked on in school! What a jerk!" attitude in here.

[heybert]

Just want to add something that most people seem to be missing. A firearm is a response option. It is a tool required in certain circumstances. It is not deemed to be a form of self defense, but rather a response option against grievious bodily harm and/or death. Average joe doesn't need to put himself in a dangerous situation, but a PO sometimes does not have a choice.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Yup we can refuse. But not all situations start out
Threatening. And that is why there may be no police on the scene. And I work for a combined dept that deals with 6 different communities. There are many occasions where 2 emt/firefighters are sent to an incident with no backup 100km from our home base. That includes call to many first nation reserves without backup. Not all firefighters work in a city Blake so your argument is only partially true. And as others have mentioned I also know several peace officers that have inflated egos already. Putting a gun in their hands is no safe to the community in my opinion!

And no I don't feel that not arming them with deadly force is unreasonable at all. Many of your peace officers are want to be cops. No way you can deny that. Their role is not to serve and
Protect like that of a police. There job is to control and enforce trivial laws.

I'll swing the judgemental pendulum back your way and say this;
Clearly you are blissfully unaware of the opinion hospital staff have of some of the EMS personnel that walk through the ambulance bay doors. Inflated egos indeed. Nothing more painful than watching a paramedic try to tell a doctor how to do his job. All? no. Some? Absolutely... You're lying to yourself if you think differently. Just ask a triage nurse...
You, and some of the other posters are simplifying the job of a peace officer. The authorities and job descriptions are as varied as the towns and municipalities they work in. While some may may do nothing but hand out parking tickets, others are responsible for the daily movement and control of inmates in the toughest remand centre in the country.
And whether you or the other posters I'm referring to want to come to terms with it or not, peace officers are law enforcement. And the attitude some are showing towards them is troubling. And I fear that attitude will only reinforce the notion to some that assaults, evasion and resistance are acceptable. because peace officers are only "wanna be's" and "not real cops". Those people would do well to remember the Criminal Code of Canada doesn't differentiate.
As far as arming peace officers with sidearms, it's a moot point. They already are.
I'm now officially done feeding the trolls.