Pmo offices tells RCMP to return seized firearms ASAP.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by wolfhunter

I think people should get their facts straight, the RCMP where only collecting firearms that were not locked up.

Really? You know that for a fact?

You say we should get our facts straight. All well and good. However, since I have not seen any report where anyone said the guns confiscated were not locked up. And in fact Police admitted that they broke into homes and removed guns from those houses, in at least one sense those guns were locked up.

Then there is the inconvenient truth that it is rare to have any homeowner leave guns lying around unattended these days because of the possible legal consequences.
So unless High River is full of careless gun fanatics, I find it very hard to imagine hundreds of guns being left in the open or unlocked, even under these circumstances.
I could see a few dozen, in a town that size, but several hundred simply doesn't make sense.

I may be wrong of course. if said guns were stored in a basement and the owner knew the house was going to flood, and he or she didn't have time or space to take the guns with him, I could see him or her moving the guns to higher places within the house, not properly set up for storing firearms.

Even if that were the case I fail to see the justification for removing said guns.

Just how many stolen sporting firearms have been used in the commission of a violent crime anyway?
How many emergency workers or flood cleanup volunteers have been injured or killed by unsecured firearms left behind by fleeing residents?

First. Leaving a loaded gun unattended is not only careless, it is illegal and no one has even suggested that any of those guns were left loaded.
Empty guns do not load themselves.

With the security as tight as it is, it is very improbable that anyone but emergency workers or cleanup personnel would have access to any gun left unattended. And then, only if the home owner was prevented from returning first.

Are emergency workers and cleanup personnel so untrustworthy that they can't be trusted to not steal?

And if they can be trusted to not steal, where is the public safety issue, would they load the guns they found and then leave them for some child to find?

At one time the argument is public safety. The next, it is argued that the intent was to protect expensive private property.

What are the facts? What are we to believe.
Were the guns left loaded?
Did they have bolts removed or triggers locked?
Were they in plain sight or in closets, under beds ext.?

The police aren't saying are they? I wonder why.

[Brent_reid]

whats the odds when honest people go to get their guns how many mysteriously dissapear, or how many dishonest ask where their guns are its a gongshow looking for a place to happen. Not saying everyone would do this or them but we will see where it goes

[elkhunter11]

I think people should get their facts straight, the RCMP where only collecting firearms that were not locked up. Not one person has said on this forum that the only reason they were taking the guns was to keep the guns from falling into the wrong hands. Whose to stop people from breaking into these homes and end up selling them on this forum. It just shows you how many people here just keep there firearms in the closet, if you are a responsibly gun owner then all your firearms should be locked up and I don't mean in your basement closet.

Firearms do not have to be locked up in safes or in any other container to meet the regulations for the safe storage of firearms. If the firearm has the bolt removed, or a trigger lock installed, it can legally be kept in a closet.

I suggest that you read the regulations for the safe/legal storage of non restricted firearms.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...age-2.html#h-3

STORAGE OF NON-RESTRICTED FIREARMS

5. (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is

(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,

(ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or

(iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and

(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.

(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

(3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by wolfhunter

I think people should get their facts straight, the RCMP where only collecting firearms that were not locked up. Not one person has said on this forum that the only reason they were taking the guns was to keep the guns from falling into the wrong hands. Whose to stop people from breaking into these homes and end up selling them on this forum. It just shows you how many people here just keep there firearms in the closet, if you are a responsibly gun owner then all your firearms should be locked up and I don't mean in your basement closet.

Finally... a statement from one of the offending officers.
Thanks for fessing up.

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by wolfhunter

I think people should get their facts straight, the RCMP where only collecting firearms that were not locked up. Not one person has said on this forum that the only reason they were taking the guns was to keep the guns from falling into the wrong hands. Whose to stop people from breaking into these homes and end up selling them on this forum. It just shows you how many people here just keep there firearms in the closet, if you are a responsibly gun owner then all your firearms should be locked up and I don't mean in your basement closet.

For the most part I have stayed out of this, but I am curious: Which is it? Were the rcmp only taking guns that were in PLAIN SIGHT while searching for people; Or were they searching all throughout the house and also taking guns that were NOT in plain sight but not "locked up" as you say?

[sakogreywolf]

Looks like I'll have to wait eh.

It all sounds pretty weak.

[elkhunter11]

If locking up your firearms makes you an idiot, then the RCMP should be paying you a visit.

If a person to chooses to store his firearms in a manner that doesn't involve locking them up, but still meets the safe storage regulations, why should the RCMP visit him?

[savage shooter]

Can't keep firearms in a closet? Funny, the Canadian firearms safety course shows a closet with a lock on it as meeting safe storage requirements. They show it several times.

The police should use common sense and realize that during a flood like this one, the firearms had to be moved to the highest point in the house in a hurry. Don't police use discretion based on circumstances anymore?

The town was empty and locked down with patrols. How are firearms that were left out because of the emergency a danger to the public that isn't even allowed in town?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by savage shooter

The town was empty and locked down with patrols. How are firearms that were left out because of the emergency a danger to the public that isn't even allowed in town?

That is what I would like to know too.

[Unregistered user]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely- Henry Kissinger. Nothing new here.Join the NFA.

[GunnerySgtJackson]

Have the authorities released any information on the number of improperly stored pressure cookers that have been confiscated from High River homes? Just curious.......

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Finally... a statement from one of the offending officers.
Thanks for fessing up.

You nailed it, I wonder how many other of our saviors are on here. I have lost all respect for these guys and they will be lucky if they ever get my support again.

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

No chance in hell of getting a conviction after a mandatory evacuation order is put out.

There are 100 legit reasons why the firearms would be in plain sight.

I wish the RCMP would spend more time catching bad guys than picking low hanging fruit. Its lazy, non-sensible policing at its best.

Their brass needs some polish. The guys on the street need to fire back at the brass and take them to task. But, that wont happen because everyone is for "me", not the "team".

I am quite sure they have many unsolved cases that they could have spent some time on rather than as you say picking low hanging fruit. Between easy pickin's and Tim Hortons they are too busy.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely- Henry Kissinger. Nothing new here.Join the NFA.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely" arose as part of a quotation by the expansively named and impressively hirsute John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

[LuckyStrike]

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...un-news)/page4

Well written statement by a former RCMP member ..... Think about this*


#39
enefgee
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In the early nineties I had many friends who were in the RCMP, Van City, Port Moody and other Police Services. When the prohibition/confiscation of certain firearms without cause or compensation started, I saw people in uniform showing up to collect firearms that were dropped off at the LGS where I helped out (I was somewhat involved in the gun business). These people included many folks who were my 'friends' - not one even remarked at the injustice, many, many of them made jokes or tried to make light of what they were doing. Many were involved in tracking down non-compliant gun owners, which had to be done quickly so as to avoid 'court hassles'. Would members of the RCMP disarm the public AGAIN if ordered to do so? You bet, absolutely no question in my mind because I have seen it. Would they use intimidation? Yes. Would they use force? Again, no question. Would they knowingly overstep their authority to do so, of course they would - not necessarily out of menace, more likely out of a perverted spirit of "get 'er done". There was not one member of the Surrey or Burnaby detachment, or Vancouver, West Vancouver, Port Moody, Abbotsford, Mission Detachment, Coquitlam or Port Coquitlam detachment that refused to be involved, on any grounds. We need to watch the watchers, otherwise they will simply follow orders from the top, middle, or just around the corner level. This is not intended to insult or disparage anyone here, it is simply what I observed, what I lived through, and what I learned from.
Last edited by enefgee; 06-30-2013 at 03:00 AM.
"The CGN formerly known as Ian_in_Vic"

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Pincherguy

You nailed it, I wonder how many other of our saviors are on here. I have lost all respect for these guys and they will be lucky if they ever get my support again.

Well so far... we have a couple of former officers that have broken ranks and stated their displeasure as well.
I know a couple retired RCMP guys and they are the same way.
Seems like th old school guys "get it" better than their replacements.

I know that I enter into conversation with a cop now... with more caution than I did when I was a wild and wooley teen and for good reason I think.

And it isn't because I'm doing anything wrong either...its because discretionary policing seems to have been replaced with arresting whenever possible.
The force seems to have set itself appart from people to take an overseer stance and all but foresaken community policing.

Pretty sad really.
I grew up thinking that the one thing we could count on being consistent and even handed was the RCMP.
It must be tough for the old style policeman... trying to work with people while their peers are working against them.

[Pepe]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Well so far... we have a couple of former officers that have broken ranks and stated their displeasure as well.
I know a couple retired RCMP guys and they are the same way.
Seems like th old school guys "get it" better than their replacements.

I know that I enter into conversation with a cop now... with more caution than I did when I was a wild and wooley teen and for good reason I think.

And it isn't because I'm doing anything wrong either...its because discretionary policing seems to have been replaced with arresting whenever possible.
The force seems to have set itself appart from people to take an overseer stance and all but foresaken community policing.

Pretty sad really.
I grew up thinking that the one thing we could count on being consistent and even handed was the RCMP.
It must be tough for the old style policeman... trying to work with people while their peers are working against them.

Keep in mind that this is exactly what the government wants. If the government didn't want to cops to become so detached and brutal, it would change it.

I have two employees, if they don't do the work as I wish, I retrain them or replace them. Same thing with the RCMP. If government didn't like what they are doing, they would change it ...period.

[Pepe]

Pr

Originally Posted by Big_Willy

Those owners not exercising due diligence in the safe storage of their firearms ultimately gives a black eye to all in the firearms community.

What constitutes safe storage to me is; bolt removed or trigger/action lock PLUS stored in a gun safe or gun cabinet secured to an immovable object (IE wall mounted).

I highly doubt the RCMP were calling in locksmiths or contractors to crack safes. They likely just scooped guns carelessly laying about as any looter can readily do.

Firearms Act is Federal jurisdiction. No "citations" (an American term) in the mail folks. But, potentially some repercussions for the lax if the Federal Crown Prosecutor elects to act on a warrantless search of private property (problematic at best).

Just my opinion...


-Willy

In you own home you are the king. If you feel pooring 5 ft of concrete over all your guns is appropriate "safe storage" than so be it.

If my views of safe storage is different than yours, than so be it. My home is my home. In my home a gun near the door, loaded, and chambered is a perfectly adequate storage since there are no kids or pets running around and everyone in the house is well versed in the use of guns.

If you live with 5 kids and 3 convicted axe murderers, the story is different.

Furthermore, a warrant or probable cause is required for cops to break into your home. Just saying they want to keep me safe is not a probable cause. If I were one of the owners, I'd be charging the cops for breaking and entering my property.

Public safety can never be obtained. It's just a pretext the government will keep using to take over every aspect of our lives. And than we still won't be safe.

I would rather keep my privacy and my freedom than have some external entity keeping me safe as if I was mommy's little boy.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Pepe

Pr
Public safety can never be obtained. It's just a pretext the government will keep using to take over every aspect of our lives. And than we still won't be safe.

I would rather keep my privacy and my freedom than have some external entity keeping me safe as if I was mommy's little boy.

Well said. There should be a program people can sign up for if they feel they require extra babysitting by the government. They could sign on the dotted line giving the authorities permission to kick in their door anytime they felt the occupants were in danger, or up to no good. The rest of us would continue/resume living under constitutional law as free men. Babysitting required houses could be painted a bright pink with blue stripes or something.

[Pepe]

Originally Posted by savage shooter

The police should use common sense

Now why would they do something stupid like that?

[ceedub]

What happened here is really bad, I mean really bad. If they think that they had trouble getting people to evacuate, wait till next time, nobody in their right mind would leave.

There is no way they could make a unsafe storage of firearms charge stick. If I'm home I can have my rifles/guns sitting anywhere I want them, if someone with authority wakes me up at 4:30 in the morning and tells me that I have to leave, how can I take the time to properly store them? Most of us have safes in the basement, no way I would leave my rifles in the basement with a chance of a flood. If I had lived in High River, and there was a chance of a flood, my guns would have been in the highest point of the home, locked or not.

To forcibly enter innocent peoples homes and help themselves to your property, that's just brutal. This type of behaviour from the RCMP cannot be tolerated in this country.

-Craig

[silver]

Originally Posted by Pepe

Pr

Furthermore, a warrant or probable cause is required for cops to break into your home. Just saying they want to keep me safe is not a probable cause. If I were one of the owners, I'd be charging the cops for breaking and entering my property.
.

When the gov't declares a state of emergency, is a warrant even needed?
There was a thread started recently about a Declaration of a State of Emergency and it went sideways right off the bat. That is kind of too bad when that happens, losing what little respect I had for some people.

[Pepe]

Originally Posted by silver

When the gov't declares a state of emergency, is a warrant even needed?
There was a thread started recently about a Declaration of a State of Emergency and it went sideways right off the bat. That is kind of too bad when that happens, losing what little respect I had for some people.

It is in the bill of rights that either a warrant or probable causes are required. Now government can very well make laws that tremple all over your most basic rights, and they do all the time, but those laws are invalid..
PERIOD.

Your property is your property. It can not be entered just because they say it can. This is completely intolerable.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Pepe

It is in the bill of rights that either a warrant or probable causes are required. Now government can very well make laws that tremple all over your most basic rights, and they do all the time, but those laws are invalid..
PERIOD.

Your property is your property. It can not be entered just because they say it can. This is completely intolerable.

The Bill of Rights is all well and good in peace time, but what happens when a State of Emergency is declared. I do remember the old War Measures Act, rights were over riden.

[CdnVet0506]

Right out of the Emergency Management Act -

Entry upon property

22 Any person in the course of implementing an emergency management plan pursuant to this Act or the regulations may, at any time, enter upon any property. 1990, c. 8, s. 22; 2005, c. 48, s. 6.


The mytical "grey area". So if you are the Emergency Management Officer you can order unwarranted entry into houses by the Police..........

Not saying I agree, but the power is there,,,,

[elkhunter11]

Right out of the Emergency Management Act -

Entry upon property

22 Any person in the course of implementing an emergency management plan pursuant to this Act or the regulations may, at any time, enter upon any property. 1990, c. 8, s. 22; 2005, c. 48, s. 6.


The mytical "grey area". So if you are the Emergency Management Officer you can order unwarranted entry into houses by the Police..........

Not saying I agree, but the power is there,,,,

I don't see anything in that act where it gives the police the power to seize personal property, unless that personal property is required to be used to deal with the emergency.

[CdnVet0506]

Don't agree with seizing property either, was answering the question of whether police can enter property without a warrant.

So when they get raked over the coals, this is the grey area lawyers will use.....

[Cooeylover]

Originally Posted by russ

fire them all.

absolutly!!!!!!!

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by silver

When the gov't declares a state of emergency, is a warrant even needed?
There was a thread started recently about a Declaration of a State of Emergency and it went sideways right off the bat. That is kind of too bad when that happens, losing what little respect I had for some people.

The only state of emergency that ever existed was to do with the evacuation & safety of innocent flood victims. The state of emergency such as violence, political unrest and threat to security never existed. Therefore, illegal and unwarranted removal of firearms from law abiding and innocent victims is nothing less than a serious breach of a free society's rights. Had the removalvof firearms been warranted, it would have to he supported by possible violent outcome, such was never the case.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Pepe

Keep in mind that this is exactly what the government wants. If the government didn't want to cops to become so detached and brutal, it would change it.

I have two employees, if they don't do the work as I wish, I retrain them or replace them. Same thing with the RCMP. If government didn't like what they are doing, they would change it ...period.

Yup... that is how its done.
The government has time on their side and its easy to stuff anyone that doesn't toe the line behind a desk.