Pmo offices tells RCMP to return seized firearms ASAP. - Page 6

Lefty-Canuck · #**151** 07-03-2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbAngler

Bryan Lily and Tony B. Sun news.

http://bcove.me/6t1bjnuc

Not cool what went down in High River. Unfortunately, I don't think anything will come of it, other than more distrust of the mounties.

AO Forum was mentioned and if I am not mistaken one dog out members had a phone interview....don't let up on this topic, it has little to do with the guns but more to do with motives and actions taken.

LC

AbAngler · #**152** 07-03-2013, 02:24 PM

I believe that was Pincherguy.

nof60 · #**153** 07-03-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Interpertation of "unreasonable" changes with emergency declaration. What was "unreasonable" the day before was "reasonable" in the emergency. So, would you say someone is breaking into your car when it is upside down immediately after a roll-over? Guess emergency crews need to get authorized access to get you out? And what about your wallet and cell phone ---ahh, right... charge them with theft if they remove it from the wreck ....

You cannot force someone to recieve medical attention. If you show up at a car accident and the victim refuses first aid you cannot force help upon him. Immediately after a roll over might be acceptable. 4 days after the rollover and it is then called vandelism. Rescue personel do need permission to perform first aid on you. If you are unconcious permision is implied. If you are ever a rescuer the first word out of your mouth are "My name is ______ and I know first aid, Can I help you" It OK to be wrong dude. And yes, if a fire fighter or paramedic breaks your car window to take your wallet, it is theft, especially 4 days after the rollover.

nof60 · #**154** 07-03-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing Nuerenburg with what happened in High River.

Do you think pre WW2 Germany turned into a police state overnight? Seems to be they registered and seized all the privately owned guns there. At what point does it no become OK to follow an illegle or immoral order?

purgatory.sv · #**155** 07-03-2013, 04:14 PM

I am disappointed and happy this issue isn’t leaving.
As a firearms owner I must follow the rules, I also am a special interest group, the percentage of legal firearms owner to the population is small. Plus as a group we are never on the same page.
This incident gives us common ground.

If we don’t go over the top and exploit the fact that the enforcement agency appears to have done something wrong we will win one.

We must now depend on people in the area to come forward and give evidence.

Then the dance will truly start.

Talk is cheap and to come forward at this time is a challenge most are starting over.

260 Rem · #**156** 07-03-2013, 05:36 PM

X2 purgatory. Facts first. Firm resolve if justified. Perhaps a bit early for those advocating jihad.

Got Juice? · #**157** 07-03-2013, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Interpertation of "unreasonable" changes with emergency declaration. What was "unreasonable" the day before was "reasonable" in the emergency. So, would you say someone is breaking into your car when it is upside down immediately after a roll-over? Guess emergency crews need to get authorized access to get you out? And what about your wallet and cell phone ---ahh, right... charge them with theft if they remove it from the wreck ....

No. It takes a vote from parliment to limit your charter rights.

And if people were saved ok, I'll go along with that.

But it wasn't the case was it?

Don't believe me.... Do a search for it, the information is there if you look for it.

260 Rem · #**158** 07-03-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nof60

You cannot force someone to recieve medical attention. If you show up at a car accident and the victim refuses first aid you cannot force help upon him. Immediately after a roll over might be acceptable. 4 days after the rollover and it is then called vandelism. Rescue personel do need permission to perform first aid on you. If you are unconcious permision is implied. If you are ever a rescuer the first word out of your mouth are "My name is ______ and I know first aid, Can I help you" It OK to be wrong dude. And yes, if a fire fighter or paramedic breaks your car window to take your wallet, it is theft, especially 4 days after the rollover.

Hmmm - "immediately after the roll over might be acceptable" to override the Charter...sorry nof60...don't think you can have it both ways when you argue in absolutes.

nof60 · #**159** 07-03-2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Hmmm - "immediately after the roll over might be acceptable" to override the Charter...sorry nof60...don't think you can have it both ways when you argue in absolutes.

You are allowed to damage property to save someone who is in imminent danger ie a rollover that is leaking gas and the person still inside or to protect the public ie tow truck flipping wreck back on its wheels to clear the highway. If you go 4 days after the accident without permission and smash the window to retrieve their cel phone you are stealing, vandelizing and breaking and entering, even if you do intend to give it back to them. Sorry that i did not write it clearly enough for you to understand.

260 Rem · #**160** 07-03-2013, 06:36 PM

No point in us arguing over our differing interpretaions of the Charter application. I have no doubt that if there is a case, it will be presented at court and be argued by experts who will google this forum which is widely known for its depth of legal experise.

gunluvr · #**161** 07-03-2013, 08:01 PM

Whether the RCMP's intentions were good or bad, they've certainly shot themselves in the foot here. There's just nothing easier to come by than a bad rep. They'd do themselves a service by coming clean here, maybe a public apology? The law-abiding public could be the RCMP's best friend if they only knew how to keep us on their side.

Unregistered user · #**162** 07-03-2013, 10:12 PM

Comparing saving people from a burning wreck with breaking and entering is quite a stretch even for a cop or a crooked politician. The people of High River have suffered enormous losses from the flood and are now being bullied by an outfit that has a sworn duty to protect them. The "Holdouts" saw this one coming didn't they?

gunluvr · #**163** 07-03-2013, 11:23 PM

Ya, I'd say damaging and confiscating the property of flood victims ranks right up there with belittling cripples or kicking dogs. Smells like arrogant, overzealous police gung-hoism. No need to do what they did.

Hagalaz · #**164** 07-04-2013, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing Nuerenburg with what happened in High River.

You are the one that should be ashamed of yourself, trying to twist his words just so you can use it as a comeback. He never compared High River to Nuremburg, he just said that the same excuses were given in both cases.

Nice try though!

rwm1273 · #**165** 07-04-2013, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing Nuerenburg with what happened in High River.

Do you even know what happened at Nuremberg? It was a trial where many Nazi's claimed they were only following orders, and therefore not responsible for their crimes. It sounds like some of the police overstepped their powers when they cut locks and took guns that were not "in plain sight" as they claimed. I suspect they too where only "following orders".

Nuremberg should have taught everyone that you have an obligation to stand up to unlawful orders. Cutting locks and removing guns from cabinets and other secured areas is over stepping their powers.

popgunn · #**166** 07-04-2013, 08:41 AM

I respectfully ask ANY resident of High River to share with us your experiences when you went to retrieve your firearms. I do understand the chaos of trying to rebuild your lives after such a disaster personally.
-What was required to provide proof of ownership.
-Were you provided with an explanation if your firearms were properly stored.
-Were you treated with disrespect or otherwise.
-Were your firearms damaged in the process.
-Is there anything any of us can do to help.

Please when you find the time keep us informed as you can probably tell we do care.
Most of all best wishes

260 Rem · #**167** 07-04-2013, 10:26 AM

Thanks to rm and Hag for updating my history --- I suppose when I was an undergrad history major at the U, History 322 (German) was early in the morning and I dozed off.... Never-the-less, comparing the atrocities tried at Nurenberg (for which some of the defendents were a unappologetic and even defiant)---with what RCMP did in the HR seizures is in poor taste.
History is riddled with bad acts that have not served as "lessons" to following generations. For history to repeat itself, it is requisite to have similar political/social/etc conditions --- and we are not living in '40's Germany. And just a bit more tobacco for your pipe, I also believe that refering to "police" as "Gestapo" or any level of government (and Range Officers) as Nazi's, is in poor taste.

DaleJ · #**168** 07-04-2013, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Thanks to rm and Hag for updating my history --- I suppose when I was an undergrad history major at the U, History 322 (German) was early in the morning and I dozed off.... Never-the-less, comparing the atrocities tried at Nurenberg (for which some of the defendents were a unappologetic and even defiant)---with what RCMP did in the HR seizures is in poor taste.
History is riddled with bad acts that have not served as "lessons" to following generations. For history to repeat itself, it is requisite to have similar political/social/etc conditions --- and we are not living in '40's Germany. And just a bit more tobacco for your pipe, I also believe that refering to "police" as "Gestapo" or any level of government (and Range Officers) as Nazi's, is in poor taste.

Following orders blindly without recognizing the consequences is a poor excuse. Orders from a detached leadership are useless. I am sure the Mounties weren't sitting at the roadblock, when some young constable out of boredom said "heads we kick down doors, tails we don't". For history not to repeat itself we need a police force that tells bad leadership to go to hell. There have been other tragic events in this province that were the direct result of ridiculous decisions by local RCMP leadership. We need a disaster response plan that leaves the local police force under the direct order of the Emergency Response Planners.

260 Rem · #**169** 07-04-2013, 03:35 PM

No doubt those in charge (emergency response planners) should be coordinating all activities. In the case of HR, I got the impression that the Mayor/Council made many of the early decisions. Clearly, (most) elected officials are not qualified to manage disaster situations. I expect a better system of preparedness will emerge.
It will be interesting to find out from where in the chain of command, the confiscation order originated. Lets not be too hard on the individual mounties who were carrying out orders. They likely had no reason to question the rationalle of the order and seen it as being a legitimate part of their mission. Also, let's not forget that many "members" are not deep political thinkers ...some of them are little more than "kids" in my view. Most probably joined the force as it promised excitement ... not many join with the idea of saving the world from evil superiors or political masters intent on the subversion of gun ownership

calgarychef · #**170** 07-04-2013, 04:30 PM

Ok how about this scenario. A general pandemic like bird flu breaks out and RCMP go door to door and seize firearms "for the good of the general population." Now all that remains is the bad guys who have guns.... Pretty scary when you think of It isn't? So you're sitting in your house and you're prepared a bit, you have some food stored, water etc. but you can't defend it or your family....because your guns have been confiscated. This little flood has shown how easy it is for society to break down.

The reference to Nuremburg was bang on, we are so friggen close to a totalitarian government it's scary. Can't video tape cops, can't leave guns in your home or the cops will seize them, proven police brutality in a lot of areas and we the people/sheeple put up with it. Indeed there are those who are arguing that what is going on is right and just, this is getting out of hand folks. When they have taken the last gun, we're doomed to slavery...think about it.

ctd · #**171** 07-04-2013, 04:57 PM

Having the luxury to compare Nuremburg to High River Floods and the actions of the RCMP in collecting firearms during this time sure must be nice.

In your world everyone would own guns and everyone would do as they please.

The only stupid thing the RCMP did as of right now with the info given is the Officer who said they were protecting the valuable rifles.

If they were confiscating all rifles then they would have seized gun lockers which seems to not be the case. So a gun confiscation did not happen.
They took control of rifles that were considered loose. Not in a safe place if further damage had of happened.

They also new that some of the residents disregarded the Mandatory evacuation order and such had a hard time providing full security to all areas of the town.
Yes they may have had a concern for the safety of firearms left in the open.

I am in the mind set that if you did not evacuate then you could possibly have had other intentions that were not legal.

One can debate this over and over, but until the people get things back in order, and they can step forward to speak their side of the story then we don't really know.

We have the luxury to sit here and criticize the actions of the RCMP from our safe homes. Bottom line is they made a decision during a difficult time, had they not of protected these rifles and some one had of broken into these same homes and stolen the firearms what would have been said then?
We all know what people would of have said.

Hagalaz · #**172** 07-04-2013, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Do you even know what happened at Nuremberg? It was a trial where many Nazi's claimed they were only following orders, and therefore not responsible for their crimes. It sounds like some of the police overstepped their powers when they cut locks and took guns that were not "in plain sight" as they claimed. I suspect they too where only "following orders".

Nuremberg should have taught everyone that you have an obligation to stand up to unlawful orders. Cutting locks and removing guns from cabinets and other secured areas is over stepping their powers.

Yes, I know what happened at Nuremburg. Everyone does, you don't have to be a history undergrad to know about it.

Big Daddy Badger · #**173** 07-04-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctd

Having the luxury to compare Nuremburg to High River Floods and the actions of the RCMP in collecting firearms during this time sure must be nice.

In your world everyone would own guns and everyone would do as they please.

The only stupid thing the RCMP did as of right now with the info given is the Officer who said they were protecting the valuable rifles.

If they were confiscating all rifles then they would have seized gun lockers which seems to not be the case. So a gun confiscation did not happen.
They took control of rifles that were considered loose. Not in a safe place if further damage had of happened.

They also new that some of the residents disregarded the Mandatory evacuation order and such had a hard time providing full security to all areas of the town.
Yes they may have had a concern for the safety of firearms left in the open.

I am in the mind set that if you did not evacuate then you could possibly have had other intentions that were not legal.One can debate this over and over, but until the people get things back in order, and they can step forward to speak their side of the story then we don't really know.

We have the luxury to sit here and criticize the actions of the RCMP from our safe homes. Bottom line is they made a decision during a difficult time, had they not of protected these rifles and some one had of broken into these same homes and stolen the firearms what would have been said then?
We all know what people would of have said.

Oh... so we should take firearms on speculation now.

Well why don't we lock up all men because they might do something naughty with their willy then?

And again... this has less to do with guns than a violation of basic rights.

If they had taken stereo equipment folks would be just as mad.
But had they done that... would YOU still be defending that action?

Unregistered user · #**174** 07-04-2013, 06:44 PM

Once the town was evacuated was it not the job of the cops and soldiers to patrol a secured area? The arguments thus far show they are not up to the job. Looters? Seriously? This isn't New Orleans, people here are much more law abiding and decent, witness the volunteer army.

greylynx · #**175** 07-04-2013, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagalaz

Yes, I know what happened at Nuremburg. Everyone does, you don't have to be a history undergrad to know about it.

Is Nuremburg even taught in schools any longer.

I heard that writing, as to printing, is no longer taught.

pikergolf · #**176** 07-04-2013, 07:20 PM

I am in the mind set that if you did not evacuate then you could possibly have had other intentions that were not legal.

Says a lot about your mind set.

elkhunter11 · #**177** 07-04-2013, 07:41 PM

Quote:

I am in the mind set that if you did not evacuate then you could possibly have had other intentions that were not legal.

That is the type of mindset that is shared by many people pursuing an anti-gun agenda.

Deo101 · #**178** 07-04-2013, 07:52 PM

Perhaps those that stayed may be lacking trust.... not sure why they wouldn't trust the RCMP to do right by them..... what a joke.

sailor · #**179** 07-04-2013, 08:24 PM

Had a conversation with neighbor about break in houses and firearms taken away.(Neighbor not firearm owner to my knowledge)
N- RCMP is right "course they did right -firearms not secure stored"
Me- "Do you know regulation about safe firearm storage?"
N- "No! But if police seized them they were not stored properly!
Conclusion: if RCMP will get dry out of this "flood"-they will get tremendous power and mass support to act in way they fill the safest for whoever they support,not anymore sure its average ironwork or teller etc.
P.S.Just got a bit paranoid from information about "State emergency" or whatever more convenient to call it.
P.P.S.I am sure there way more people in Canada who never read Laws but just trust officials and police who was always in front line defense for them (majority wouldn't trust politician)

6.5x47 lapua · #**180** 07-04-2013, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctd

Having the luxury to compare Nuremburg to High River Floods and the actions of the RCMP in collecting firearms during this time sure must be nice.

In your world everyone would own guns and everyone would do as they please.

The only stupid thing the RCMP did as of right now with the info given is the Officer who said they were protecting the valuable rifles.

If they were confiscating all rifles then they would have seized gun lockers which seems to not be the case. So a gun confiscation did not happen.
They took control of rifles that were considered loose. Not in a safe place if further damage had of happened.

They also new that some of the residents disregarded the Mandatory evacuation order and such had a hard time providing full security to all areas of the town.
Yes they may have had a concern for the safety of firearms left in the open.

I am in the mind set that if you did not evacuate then you could possibly have had other intentions that were not legal.

One can debate this over and over, but until the people get things back in order, and they can step forward to speak their side of the story then we don't really know.

We have the luxury to sit here and criticize the actions of the RCMP from our safe homes. Bottom line is they made a decision during a difficult time, had they not of protected these rifles and some one had of broken into these same homes and stolen the firearms what would have been said then?
We all know what people would of have said.

ya I could imagine how hard it was to lock down a very small town where only access to homes was by boat.hell I think even the boy scouts could manage.