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  #31  
Old 12-21-2014, 11:43 PM
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A laser beam shoots flat. Everything else requires trajectory. Light weight high velocity = flat shooting to 300 yds. and a pile of trajectory to get to 500 yds. Flat shooting is reserved for wind proof bullets.

Allen Magnums shooting long for caliber bullets. Case size alone doesn't make a flat shooter, a long bullet in a fast twist barrel will make the 257 Wby with a 1:10 twist look like a 30-30.
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  #32  
Old 12-22-2014, 07:00 AM
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Great thread, and some interesting definitions of things.
But in the end they all kinda end up with the results.
Have a great day... Only two more days before starting to christmas shop.
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  #33  
Old 12-22-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
Personally, anyone who mentions "flat" to me, I assume they have no clue about ballistics. There is no flat. The only given variable at any range is drop or gravity. Flatter? Sure, not flat....... No such thing
I'd take a 30-06 any day over a 270. That extra inch of flatness at 200 means nothing. I still love my 270 though...that would be rifle specific.
No offense to anyone though, good luck with your ultraflatlaserbeam when shooting into space, hope the moon can withstand it lol
Merry Christmas all.
Don't assume. This isn't english class, but I'm sure someone will gladly take you to school.
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  #34  
Old 12-22-2014, 08:16 AM
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Skytop B,

I loved your answer to the asked issue! However, I'm afraid that not even laser guns shoot absolutely flat. Indeed, as a result of Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2 and Maxwell's electromagnetic equations, light is affected by gravity, which means that its propagation is not absolutely "flat" (i.e. linearly directed).

But who knows, sometime a rifle manufacturer in partnership with a bullet manufacturer may come out with an astounding innovation relying on hyperspace principles.

  #35  
Old 12-22-2014, 08:43 AM
bigredviking bigredviking is offline
 
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Flat shooting - a number of definitions above. Some of them accurate, some of them useful, few of them functional when it actually comes to putting a bullet in the correct place. I always recommend (and with those who learn to hunt with me I insist) knowing something about the ballistics of your gun/ammunition/bullet is required. Of course it is a learning curve as we learn bit-by-bit, just as we forget bit-by-bit. I always suggest a written table travel with every field gun and that it is read before it is needed. I review mine at the start of most field walks and just as I start a stalk. Below are examples of what they look like. These ones I have developed myself through shooting the gun/ammo combination at the different distances but using a calculated one is a good place to start. Working from a benchmark matters in my opinion.

.270 - piece of tape has been on the gun 25 years (200yd zero)
.50 cal inline (150yd zero)
7mm08 with scope info included (200yd zero)
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  #36  
Old 12-22-2014, 08:46 AM
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Here is a Nosler 26 cartridge compared to a 300wsm.

As close to flat as scientists have come up with so far.

  #37  
Old 12-22-2014, 09:34 AM
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Not an expert, all I know is my 3 favorite guns shooting the best bullets at 1000m under the same conditions are:

300WM - 210 Berger VLD @ 2850fps = 8.7 mils
308 WIn - 178 AMAX @ 2600 fps = 12.4 mils
26 Nos with 129 LRAB @ 3300fps = 7.1 mils

All have 100m zero

Comparing apples to watermelons, I know.
  #38  
Old 12-22-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
Zero your laser beam at 300 yards then?? 4-5" high at 100? Or 2 -3" high at 100? Depending on the strength of the laser lol.
Nope, I sight my .270 win 3" high at 100, with 130 grain bullets it is around 3" low at 300. Not exactly a laser beam but dead deer as far as I can shoot them.
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  #39  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:06 AM
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'flat' is a term that is only relative to the distance people shoot.
someone shooting to 400m will have a very different perception of 'flat' compared to someone shooting 1000m and beyond.
only 3 things in life are for sure; death, taxes, and gravity.
mass will out run velocity in the LONG run every time.
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  #40  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bushleague View Post
Nope, I sight my .270 win 3" high at 100, with 130 grain bullets it is around 3" low at 300. Not exactly a laser beam but dead deer as far as I can shoot them.
I personally believe that you are better off buying a great scope with a built in drop compensation system. I purchased a Huskemaw and have had the round and 300 wsm I shoot calibrated with the scope.

Works like a charm and you can reach out and nail the critters a long way out with the right caliber rifle. Turn the turret aim and shoot! Takes all of the guess work out of it and provides humane kills at longer distances

Last edited by edmhunter; 12-22-2014 at 10:15 AM.
  #41  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
Personally, anyone who mentions "flat" to me, I assume they have no clue about ballistics. There is no flat. The only given variable at any range is drop or gravity. Flatter? Sure, not flat....... No such thing
I'd take a 30-06 any day over a 270. That extra inch of flatness at 200 means nothing. I still love my 270 though...that would be rifle specific.
No offense to anyone though, good luck with your ultraflatlaserbeam when shooting into space, hope the moon can withstand it lol
Merry Christmas all.
While I generally agree with what you are saying, gravity is not a variable... it is a constant.

ARG
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It has been scientifically proven that a 308 round will not leave your property -- they essentially fall dead at the fence line. But a 38 round, when fired from a handgun, will of its own accord leave your property and destroy any small schools nearby.
  #42  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleJ View Post

a long bullet in a fast twist barrel will make the 257 Wby with a 1:10 twist look like a 30-30.
the 257 will be flatter to beyond hunting ranges where 99 percent of people shoot so you arent flat wrong just 99 percent
  #43  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Here is a Nosler 26 cartridge compared to a 300wsm.

As close to flat as scientists have come up with so far.

That's what I shoot Nosler Trophy Grade Accubonds 180 Gr. 300 WSM. BANG.......WACK!!!!!!
  #44  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:17 AM
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That's what I shoot Nosler Trophy Grade Accubonds 300 WSM. BANG.......WACK!!!!!!
Mine are home made
  #45  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:19 AM
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Mine are home made
Sure do pack a punch, don't they?
  #46  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:29 AM
Skytop B Skytop B is offline
 
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Mine are home made
How is your runout with on the 26 with the Redding dies? The Redding deluxe dies I purchased are absolute garbage. The threads for the expander were .003'' off centre giving me .007 or so runout on the necks. Started expanding in a separate step and the problem was solved. I wish Forster made dies for the 26.
  #47  
Old 12-22-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Skytop B View Post
How is your runout with on the 26 with the Redding dies? The Redding deluxe dies I purchased are absolute garbage. The threads for the expander were .003'' off centre giving me .007 or so runout on the necks. Started expanding in a separate step and the problem was solved. I wish Forster made dies for the 26.
The 26 is my friends rifle, I'll ask him If he's having any issues. I had the same problem with my 280ai dies from Redding as well, I'll have to try that.
  #48  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:00 AM
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The 26 is my friends rifle, I'll ask him If he's having any issues. I had the same problem with my 280ai dies from Redding as well, I'll have to try that.
I have only loaded shotgun rounds, thousands and thousands of them and only because it was cheaper at the time to load rather then purchase them.

Question for you loading guys. Is loading let say 300 WSM Accubonds over buying the Trophy Grades really make and difference, in it's killing power?
  #49  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:03 AM
Skytop B Skytop B is offline
 
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
I have only loaded shotgun rounds, thousands and thousands of them and only because it was cheaper at the time to load rather then purchase them.

Question for you loading guys. Is loading let say 300 WSM Accubonds over buying the Trophy Grades really make and difference, in it's killing power?
Not really but for me the $80 for 20 rounds would be the killer. Depends how much you shoot outside of hunting season I guess.
  #50  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:08 AM
Skytop B Skytop B is offline
 
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Originally Posted by gtita View Post
Skytop B,

I loved your answer to the asked issue! However, I'm afraid that not even laser guns shoot absolutely flat. Indeed, as a result of Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2 and Maxwell's electromagnetic equations, light is affected by gravity, which means that its propagation is not absolutely "flat" (i.e. linearly directed).

But who knows, sometime a rifle manufacturer in partnership with a bullet manufacturer may come out with an astounding innovation relying on hyperspace principles.

Fair enough but that is actually an electro magnetic pulse ray gun, light years ahead of a measly laser
  #51  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher View Post
While I generally agree with what you are saying, gravity is not a variable... it is a constant.

ARG
Nope it is a variable.... it varies with size of object and distance..... why is there less gravity on the moon?
  #52  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Skytop B View Post
How is your runout with on the 26 with the Redding dies? The Redding deluxe dies I purchased are absolute garbage. The threads for the expander were .003'' off centre giving me .007 or so runout on the necks. Started expanding in a separate step and the problem was solved. I wish Forster made dies for the 26.
you have a lathe and you know what you're doing. you could get a die reamer and some die blanks from ptg and have the best dies ever...

i've thought about it a bunch of times
  #53  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
I have only loaded shotgun rounds, thousands and thousands of them and only because it was cheaper at the time to load rather then purchase them.

Question for you loading guys. Is loading let say 300 WSM Accubonds over buying the Trophy Grades really make and difference, in it's killing power?
It costs me about a buck a shot, compared to about $3.50 a shot for factory ammo. I think dead is dead, but once you have your load tuned, factory ammo can't compare in accuracy, that's where the biggest advantage of reloading comes into play, aside from the money savings. Mind you, once you start reloading, you start shooting more, so the money savings is a moot point I guess. It does give you much more trigger time though, making you a better shot. I've put over 160rds through my 280rem, 280ai, and my 300wsm in the last month, and I just bought a new rifle so 20rds break in then load development for that one starts December 27th. I can see putting another 200rds down range before the end of the year easily. I've got a reloading set up at my cabin now too so I don't have to wait until my next trip to the cabin to fine tune loads. It gets pretty pricey putting 2000 or so rounds down range every year, especially at $3.50 a shot!
  #54  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:19 AM
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I hear you there, plus they are hard to find. With the amount I shoot, It is more cost effective to buy a box or two then to buy all of the equipment to start loading. If I was at the range a lot I would definitely be loading my own.
  #55  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:21 AM
Skytop B Skytop B is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
you have a lathe and you know what you're doing. you could get a die reamer and some die blanks from ptg and have the best dies ever...

i've thought about it a bunch of times
Considered it, just did not want to invest another $200 on something I would only use once. Will be doing that for sure next time.
  #56  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger CS View Post
Regardless of bullet weight, what makes a rifle to be regarded as flat shooting is how fast you can get the bullet to the target. Simply stated, the faster the velocity the less time for gravity to perform it's magic on the projectile. When teaching Hunter Ed. I often asked the question, if I were to hold a bullet in the air at the same level as the barrel and drop it at the precise time a bullet fired were to exit the barrel, which bullet would drop faster and hit the ground first?
Answer of course, both bullets will drop at the same speed and hit the ground at the same time. Conclusion, the faster you get it there less the drop.
Not entirely correct.... the rifle actually shoots the bullet upwards into the line of sight.... now if barrel was level and ground was perfectly flat this would be true..... there is a physics simulator that demonstrates this concept.....

Another question is which will hit the ground first a .17 bullet or a 308 if both were dropped?... how about shot....under above conditions? Yet which is better for long distance shooting? Why....

There are many factors.... this would be initial velocity and retained velocity at distance.... the difference is defined as drag which takes into account all sorts of factors which is fudged into a number known as ballistic co-efficient that allows us to predict how fast bullet is going after a set distance based on initial velocity.

In the end for simplicity, best ballistic co-efficient is a good measure but again it depends on the launching parameters.... this would be powder charge (amount, type and burn rate and propellant gas production), twist rate, barrel length and rifle characteristics.

One can over think this or depending on size of animal and bullet you want to carry one can find a "flat" gun in any caliber.... whether it be 26 Nosler, &MM SW, 300 RUM, 338 Lapua.... etc. etc. etc.

This is what Roy Weatherby tried to answer and create.... and look how many calibers he made!...

stay away from a 30-30 and you will be fine....

For this same solution I chose a 300 WSM (Not a 300 RUM) but there were other considerations as well such as recoil and the fact I wanted A WSM.

243 is "flat" but a little light IMO on a 300 yard elk shot.....but many people prefer the lighter recoil and can shoot that better than a 320 Loudenboomer that shoots like a laser, kicks like a mule and pretty much butchers and dresses the game before you can walk the 1/2 mile to retrieve it....
  #57  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
I personally believe that you are better off buying a great scope with a built in drop compensation system. I purchased a Huskemaw and have had the round and 300 wsm I shoot calibrated with the scope.

Works like a charm and you can reach out and nail the critters a long way out with the right caliber rifle. Turn the turret aim and shoot! Takes all of the guess work out of it and provides humane kills at longer distances
People would like to believe that using turrets or BDC reticles, takes all of the guess work out of long distance shooting, but that isn't the case. As the distances gets longer , windage becomes more and more critical., and measuring the wind speed and direction all the way to the target isn't usually an option. As well, at longer distances, even the burning rate of the powder changing with temperature , can become significant.
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  #58  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:48 AM
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Considered it, just did not want to invest another $200 on something I would only use once. Will be doing that for sure next time.
and that's where i'm at too. it just doesn't pay
  #59  
Old 12-22-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
People would like to believe that using turrets or BDC reticles, takes all of the guess work out of long distance shooting, but that isn't the case. As the distances gets longer , windage becomes more and more critical., and measuring the wind speed and direction all the way to the target isn't usually an option. As well, at longer distances, even the burning rate of the powder changing with temperature , can become significant.
Features of the Huskemaw Blue Diamond Series 5-20x50 Rifle I own:

True BC Drop Compensation

Windage Compensation Technology Which is deadly accurate with a wind Metre.

Turret System w/Hunt Smart Reticle

Fast Focus Eyepiece.

700 yards, no Sweat!
  #60  
Old 12-22-2014, 12:07 PM
Bushleague Bushleague is offline
 
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
I personally believe that you are better off buying a great scope with a built in drop compensation system. I purchased a Huskemaw and have had the round and 300 wsm I shoot calibrated with the scope.

Works like a charm and you can reach out and nail the critters a long way out with the right caliber rifle. Turn the turret aim and shoot! Takes all of the guess work out of it and provides humane kills at longer distances
And I disagree. If I liked that idea I would have one. The more un-needed complications I can get rid of the better. I'm having trouble remembering the last animal I had to kill at over 200 yards, I can count on one hand those that I have shot at 300, why set up my rifle for a shot I might need to make once every 5 years? No thanks.
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Last edited by Bushleague; 12-22-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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