Long range unethical?

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Howdy folks! I watched a YouTube video of some guy shooting a moose. He claims the range was 1100 yards. I called BS and was stomped on. I did some research on laser rangefinders and their limitations and the atrocious ballistics of even the best bullets pushed to unattainable velocities. Still, many respondents claimed I was "jealous" I couldn't/wouldn't take the shot.

So....what are your thoughts? BS or what?

[catnthehat]

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

[MattSako]

You need a good caliber with enough energy to drop a moose that far..

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

[JD848]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

X3 It's not what your normal hunter does,but some guys have spent tons of cash and top optics and 1000 is not abnormal to them.And CAT is right guys never stop on this topic.

[bessiedog]

I used to slag guys for making that shot.

and I was wrong. I've seen standup guys who have the right equipment, skills and practice take animals that are wayyy past my range.

It can be done, and I get the challenge behind it.

And I retract my criticism of anyone that regularly does it.

Its not my thing cause I don;t have the gear or skills.

but Man...... its something to see.


to each their own for the shot I guess.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Actually it's no more guess work at 1,000 yards than it is at 500 with wind.
it takes experience and lots of trigger time to learn how to dope wind, but it can and does get done every day.
As far as range finder inaccuracy goes, there are some very good ones out there, but they are expensive, same as the optics used for spotting such as the Swarovski big eyes, other higher end Leica rangefinder binoculars that are accurate at those ranges.
Cat

[Armorman]

Under perfect conditions with the appropriate gear and a seasoned marksman behind the trigger, 100% doable.

[Talking moose]

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Armorman

Under perfect conditions with the appropriate gear and a seasoned marksman behind the trigger, 100% doable.

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

Why?

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

You should just do a search on here and read all those post. No sense rehashing it all over again.

[elkhunter11]

There are rangefinders that can range animals to well over 1000 yards. As for estimating wind, that can't be measured all the way from the shooter to the target, and it can change direction and speed several times over 1000 yards. Therefore the only resort is to estimate the wind all the way to the target, and hope for the best. Of course the farther the target is away, the more likely the error in estimating the wind speed and direction. As well, the farther the target, the longer the bullet is in the air, and the greater the risk of the animal moving from the time the trigger is pulled, until the bullet arrives at the target. Yes people do hit animals at over 1000 yards, but the odds of a missed or wounded animal increase, as the shot distance increases. Of course the programs on Wild TV that feature this long range shooting, show the successful shots, and rarely if ever show the misses or wounded animals. Showing that misses and wounded animals do happen with long range shooting, regardless of the equipment being used, does not look good when your program is promoting specialized long range shooting products.

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Actually it's no more guess work at 1,000 yards than it is at 500 with wind.
it takes experience and lots of trigger time to learn how to dope wind, but it can and does get done every day.
As far as range finder inaccuracy goes, there are some very good ones out there, but they are expensive, same as the optics used for spotting such as the Swarovski big eyes, other higher end Leica rangefinder binoculars that are accurate at those ranges.
Cat

[grinr]

Can it be done...absolutely.
Should it be done....mehhhhhh....I'll let the hunting ethics police argue that one,as posted,that horse has been beat to death.
IMHO,it's far more about shooting skill then hunting skill,that's all I got to say about it.
But before you go calling BS on an 1100 yd shot,keep in mind that many.....ok several...military snipers have recorded kills well beyond a mile distance,and there's a few recorded in the 2400m+ range.Mind you their weapon of choice is generally a .50cal,but some 2000+ with .338Lapua as well,and there's tons of guys capable of making that 1100 yard moose shot with a .308....I'm not one of them,lol.

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

Ok we get it your not a fan, you made your point. Your not going to change anybody's opinion on the subject so why bother?

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

GO AWAY! You apparently have never shot over 100 yards and don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

The only research that I have done with my Leica Geovids, is actually ranging animals with them. I have ranged deer to over 600 yards, elk to 900 yards, and moose and cattle to over 1000 yards.

[Stricks]

TLJ…I had some of the very questions you put forth…not all have been answered. There is (and has been) a TV program dedicated to the this endeavour called Long Range Pursuit.

You can view some episodes here ---- not my cup of tea, but it should answer many of your questions.


http://www.longrangepursuit.com/home

[Speckle55]

Here is a Chart showing the effective and that means just that

will a gun listed kill further .... the answer is yes

also Rob Furlong teach's Long range shooting and all of the components to Albertan and else where every year..
https://www.facebook.com/Sniper.Rob.Furlong

I shot this Bull Moose at 975yds before he was born.. the date on picture was when I took a picture of that picture for on here

I shoot a Rem 700 BDL 7mm Mag with a Scopechief 3-9 BDC with extra disc

also now I have a Leupold 1000 TBR and ranged out to 1200 yards

I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience. "


David

Cartridge Maximum effective range[35]
7.62×39mm 600 m
5.56×45mm 600 m [36]
7.62×51mm (.308 Winchester) 800 m
7.62×54mm R 800 m
.30-06 Springfield 800 m
7 mm Remington Magnum 900–1,100 m
.300 Winchester Magnum 900–1,200 m
.338 Lapua Magnum 1,200-1,500 m
.50 BMG (12.7×99mm NATO)
12.7×108mm (Russian) 1,500–2,000 m
14.5×114mm 1,800–2,300

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Not guess work at all. Some long range shooters are fanatical about their rifles, ammunition, optics, laser range finders, ballistics, range tables etc etc etc to the point that they can accurately and regularly hit targets at well beyond 1000 metres.

Way too many hunters judging other hunters for executing perfectly legal hunting practices. If your comfort zone is 300 metres, stay in it. I know what mine is and I stay in that, I don't pass judgement on a guy who can shoot accurately at game at distances that most would never even see the animal, let alone connect with it.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stricks

TLJ…I had some of the very questions you put forth…not all have been answered. There is (and has been) a TV program dedicated to the this endeavour called Long Range Pursuit.

You can view some episodes here ---- not my cup of tea, but it should answer many of your questions.


http://www.longrangepursuit.com/home

There is also a program called "Best Of The West" that promotes long range shooting. Both programs seem to exist for the sole purpose of selling their long range shooting products.

[Hydro1]

Shoot as far as you know you can accurately.
For me that is sub 125 yards.
My buddy, can hit a softball all day at 500 yards. He can easily shoot a watermelon round after round at 700 yards.
I have seen others that have no problem plinking soda bottles at 750+ yards.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

How is it not hunting??? If I do the exact same prep, scouting, walking, glassing, sitting, calling, etc etc and do everything you do on your hunt except you take a critter at 100 metres and I take one at 800 metres (hypothetically)
how is my experience any different than yours in terms of "who was really hunting"??

[Armorman]

Swarovski and Leica both make fine equipment but there are much better rangefinders out there capable of ranging animals way past 1100 yards.

[hardy]

Not sure but maybe I drink less coffee then the OP I have ranged yotes with my swarovski laser guide range finder past 1400 yards. I can range cows easily to 1000y and more on clear days. Snowy bright days sometimes mess with your readings.
Have I shot big game that far no, do I think some people can yes. I takes putting in the time and getting to know your gear. I have shot many a coyote past 400y so hitting larger game is doable!
Not just technology but knowledge and how to apply it has made it easier to hit targets farther away then thought possible. If you have confidence that you can make the shot then that's up you.
I right now have not practiced very much in recent months and would probably be hard pressed to connect past 300 without puting in some trigger time.

Like said before weather you agree it can be done or not, it is being done and will continue to do so. Don't watch long range shooting/ hunting vids if they make you squirrelly
Cheers
Hardy

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Here is a Chart showing the effective and that means just that

will a gun listed kill further .... the answer is yes

also Rob Furlong teach's Long range shooting and all of the components to Albertan and else where every year..
https://www.facebook.com/Sniper.Rob.Furlong

I shot this Bull Moose at 975yds before he was born.. the date on picture was when I took a picture of that picture for on here

I shoot a Rem 700 BDL 7mm Mag with a Scopechief 3-9 BDC with extra disc

David
Cartridge Maximum effective range[35]
7.62×39mm 600 m
5.56×45mm 600 m [36]
7.62×51mm (.308 Winchester) 800 m
7.62×54mm R 800 m
.30-06 Springfield 800 m
7 mm Remington Magnum 900–1,100 m
.300 Winchester Magnum 900–1,200 m
.338 Lapua Magnum 1,200-1,500 m
.50 BMG (12.7×99mm NATO)
12.7×108mm (Russian) 1,500–2,000 m
14.5×114mm 1,800–2,300

Why do you keep posting that chart which is a list of the effective ranges of the cartridges for military purposes, where it is actually more desirable to seriously injure a combatant, than to cleanly kill that person? As such, that chart is not applicable for big game hunting.

[RBI]

The problem , the way I see it , is not that the long range shots can't be made by the guys that have the skill , gear and the the trigger time , and that can make that shot time and time again , and the confidence to know it .
The problem is the guys that think that they are that good , and perhaps some days , maybe they are , but its on those days that they aren't ( and know it ) and still take the shot , and end up with a very poorly placed shot on the animal ( the animal is left in good enough condition to be long gone before the shooter can get to it , but in bad enough condition that it will die a slow death ) .

This , although mostly inherent with the long range shots , is certainly not limited to only the long range shots .

There are certainly enough poor shots ( poor decisions really ) that get taken , when the shooter should or does know better then to squeeze the trigger .

I just hope that when the time(s) comes for me to make that/those decisions , God grants me the wisdom and acceptance to know the difference .

Happy Hunting and Good Season To All , and To All A Good Buck

[grinr]

FYI Johnnie,the current sniper kill record(according to wiki) is 2475m(2707y)....a full 2.5x farther then an 1100y moose shot on a human 1/5 the size of a moose.

Canadian PPLCI soldiers held the #1 and #2 distance records prior to that^^ shot by a UK sniper....GO CANADA GO!!!

Fwiw......
1)Nov. 2009,Afghanistan,Cpl Craig Harrison,United Kingdom(Household Cavalry)
2475m(2707y) .338Lapua

2)Mar.2002,Afghanistan,Cpl Rob Furlong,Canada(3rd Battalion PPLCI)
2430m(2657y) .50BMG

3)Mar.2002,Afghanistan,Master Cpl Arron Perry,Canada(3rd Battalion PPLCI)
2310m(2526y) .50BMG

I Wouldn't wanna be a moose anywhere within 2 miles of these ^^ guys,lol.

[58thecat]

Think we hashed this one out a few times eh boys!