Campfire Debate_Ultimate NA Big Game Calibre Sans the big bears

[Chukar Hunter]

I am sure this topic has come up in a gazillion Forums including here but I would like to resurrect it again with a different twist. I would like you all to imagine a campfire debate TODAY with the following individuals around it;

Jack O'Connor
Elmer Keith
Craig Boddington
John Nosler
Vernon Speer
Colonel "Townie"
Wayne Van Zwoll

The subject of the debate is nothing new: What is the ultimate calibre for North American Big game excluding the big bears at long range up to 500 yards for which most reticles are calibrated at.

It would be very interesting to be present in that debate as guys like Jack & Wayne who are field tested guys would debate with John & Vernon who are bullet designers.

With the exception of Elmer Keith who was a Big Bore fan and would probably be as hard headed today as he was back then, everyone would be hard pressed not to accept the efficiency, flight characteristic and the killing power of the 7 mm bore. The question is: Which 7 mm calibre? Excluding the wildcats, the list is as follows:

1. 7mm-08 Remington
2. 7x57 Mauser
3. 284 Winchester
4. 280 Remington
5. 7x64 Brenneke
6. 280 Ackley Improved
7. 7 mm SAUM
8. 7 mm WSM
9. 7 mm Rem Mag
10. 7 mm WBY Mag
11. 7 mm STW
12. 7 mm Ultra Mag
13. 280 Nosler

I have loaded and shot for calibre numbers: 1, 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11 & 12.

My vote would be No. 4: The 280 Remington and I will give you my reasons:

The case dimension is standard and slightly tapered with a 17 degree shoulder which makes it ideal for feeding in any action type including M70, a Mauser or even a M700.

With a case capacity of 68 grains (H2O), It is a hand loaders dream, capable of launching a 150 grain Spitzer at over 3,000 fps with a 24" pipe. For any projectile of this weight and a min BC of 0.5, this translates to over 1,500 ft-lbs (enough to kill an elk or moose, at least on paper) at 600 yards. Most guys can't even hold still for half that distance, let alone shoot at game with authority.

The case head spaces at the shoulder and is non belted.

In a 7.5 lbs rifle, the above spitzer generates a felt recoil of 24 ft-lbs force which is very tolerable, even by younger shooters.

Case life is high because of the lower chamber pressures (50,000 psi) and the head spacing location.

You can shoot anywhere from 120 grain to 175 grain spitzers with very respectable velocities.

I have absolutely nothing against the rest of the 7 mm brethren but if you wondered, here is what I don't like about them;

The 7mm-08 is wonderful and I have one but case capacity is limited. Long throat chambering can increase powder capacity and put it right behind a 280.

The 7x57 Mauser is an in between calibre and factory ammunition is often loaded to a low velocity. Has good potential with a hand loader. Brass is hard to get.

284 Winchester is an awesome cartridge but because the case is rebated, feeding issues are almost a guarantee. Brass is extremely hard to find.

7x64 Brenneke is a beauty and twin brother to the 280 Rem but in NA, brass and factory ammo are almost non existent.

280 AI is a stellar in terms of performance but because of the straight case, feeding issues can exist and be problematic.

7 mm SAUM and WSM are both short stubby straight cases. Again, feeding issues and unavailability of brass are the cons.

7 mm Rem Mag has a very short neck and is belted without needing it. Case efficiency is low compared to the powder charge and often, a 26" barrel is required to extract its potential.

7mm Wby mag needs a large jump to control pressures which affects accuracy. Never seen one that shoots consistent.

The 7 mm STW, RUM and 280 Nosler are all huge capacity cases with just modest gains in velocity compared to the powder charge, recoil and extra barrel length.

Now, the above does not mean that the 6.5's, .277's, the 30's and the 338's are not capable calibres and they all have killed and continue dropping game. People put down elk a 243W and I have and like those other bores too. The gist of this debate is something else however. It is about opinions on choosing a calibre with the best case efficiency, easy chambering, great overall killing power, ammo and brass availability, mild recoil and long range (500-600 yd) capability.

I will be interested to hear your counter arguments! On a related note, I have build 4 successful custom 280 Rem to date and three more are in the pipe. And if I am not mistaken, John Nosler and Jack O'connor (in his later years) had developed a deep love affair with the 280 rem.

Lastly, as Jack O'Connor said it eloquently: A bull elk is as wounded with a 338 as it is with a 270 if the shot placement is not right. There you have it!

Yours in good hunt'n

CH

[elkhunter11]

Since you asked for caliber .284".

[Deer Hunter]

30-06 is better than a 280 Rem.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Chukar Hunter

I am sure this topic has come up in a gazillion Forums including here but I would like to resurrect it again with a different twist. I would like you all to imagine a campfire debate TODAY with the following individuals around it;

Jack O'Connor
Elmer Keith
Craig Boddington
John Nosler
Vernon Speer
Colonel "Townie"
Wayne Van Zwoll

The subject of the debate is nothing new: What is the ultimate calibre for North American Big game excluding the big bears at long range up to 500 yards for which most reticles are calibrated at.

It would be very interesting to be present in that debate as guys like Jack & Wayne who are field tested guys would debate with John & Vernon who are bullet designers.

With the exception of Elmer Keith who was a Big Bore fan and would probably be as hard headed today as he was back then, everyone would be hard pressed not to accept the efficiency, flight characteristic and the killing power of the 7 mm bore. The question is: Which 7 mm calibre? Excluding the wildcats, the list is as follows:

1. 7mm-08 Remington
2. 7x57 Mauser
3. 284 Winchester
4. 280 Remington
5. 7x64 Brenneke
6. 280 Ackley Improved
7. 7 mm SAUM
8. 7 mm WSM
9. 7 mm Rem Mag
10. 7 mm WBY Mag
11. 7 mm STW
12. 7 mm Ultra Mag
13. 280 Nosler

I have loaded and shot for calibre numbers: 1, 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11 & 12.

My vote would be No. 4: The 280 Remington and I will give you my reasons:

The case dimension is standard and slightly tapered with a 17 degree shoulder which makes it ideal for feeding in any action type including M70, a Mauser or even a M700.

With a case capacity of 68 grains (H2O), It is a hand loaders dream, capable of launching a 150 grain Spitzer at over 3,000 fps with a 24" pipe. For any projectile of this weight and a min BC of 0.5, this translates to over 1,500 ft-lbs (enough to kill an elk or moose, at least on paper) at 600 yards. Most guys can't even hold still for half that distance, let alone shoot at game with authority.

The case head spaces at the shoulder and is non belted.

In a 7.5 lbs rifle, the above spitzer generates a felt recoil of 24 ft-lbs force which is very tolerable, even by younger shooters.

Case life is high because of the lower chamber pressures (50,000 psi) and the head spacing location.

You can shoot anywhere from 120 grain to 175 grain spitzers with very respectable velocities.

I have absolutely nothing against the rest of the 7 mm brethren but if you wondered, here is what I don't like about them;

The 7mm-08 is wonderful and I have one but case capacity is limited. Long throat chambering can increase powder capacity and put it right behind a 280.

The 7x57 Mauser is an in between calibre and factory ammunition is often loaded to a low velocity. Has good potential with a hand loader. Brass is hard to get.

284 Winchester is an awesome cartridge but because the case is rebated, feeding issues are almost a guarantee. Brass is extremely hard to find.

7x64 Brenneke is a beauty and twin brother to the 280 Rem but in NA, brass and factory ammo are almost non existent.

280 AI is a stellar in terms of performance but because of the straight case, feeding issues can exist and be problematic.

7 mm SAUM and WSM are both short stubby straight cases. Again, feeding issues and unavailability of brass are the cons.

7 mm Rem Mag has a very short neck and is belted without needing it. Case efficiency is low compared to the powder charge and often, a 26" barrel is required to extract its potential.

7mm Wby mag needs a large jump to control pressures which affects accuracy. Never seen one that shoots consistent.

The 7 mm STW, RUM and 280 Nosler are all huge capacity cases with just modest gains in velocity compared to the powder charge, recoil and extra barrel length.

Now, the above does not mean that the 6.5's, .277's, the 30's and the 338's are not capable calibres and they all have killed and continue dropping game. People put down elk a 243W and I have and like those other bores too. The gist of this debate is something else however. It is about opinions on choosing a calibre with the best case efficiency, easy chambering, great overall killing power, ammo and brass availability, mild recoil and long range (500-600 yd) capability.

I will be interested to hear your counter arguments! On a related note, I have build 4 successful custom 280 Rem to date and three more are in the pipe. And if I am not mistaken, John Nosler and Jack O'connor (in his later years) had developed a deep love affair with the 280 rem.

Lastly, as Jack O'Connor said it eloquently: A bull elk is as wounded with a 338 as it is with a 270 if the shot placement is not right. There you have it!

Yours in good hunt'n

CH

You make some good arguments. Throw Jim Carmichel in that mix and he will be your biggest defender of that choice.

[Chukar Hunter]

Originally Posted by chuck

You make some good arguments. Throw Jim Carmichel in that mix and he will be your biggest defender of that choice.

I am not a big fan of Jim, sorry

Know more than I should about him!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by deer hunter

30-06 is better than a 280 rem.

rolmfao!!!

[Salavee]

It appears that you have already chosen it ... .284. Not that I agree

[marxman]

30 06

[bobinthesky]

I like your 280 choice and have used it somewhat however, I have a lot more experience with the 30-06 and have a lot of confidence in it as well. The differences between the two are admittedly very small.

[58thecat]

Wayne van Zwoll of Petersen's Hunting magazine wrote: "Efficient case design and a bullet weight range suitable for most North American big game make the 7mm-08 a fine choice for all-around hunting. Civil in recoil, it's a perfect match for lightweight, short-action rifles. It has also courted favor on metallic silhouette ranges, where its 140-grain bullets reach 500-yard targets faster and with as much energy as 150-grain .308s."[6] He also described it as "deadly" for elk.

I tend to agree, after seeing what the little seven can do on big game animals, manly moose the 140 gr partition in this cartridge is well...deadly combo.

[Chukar Hunter]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Wayne van Zwoll of Petersen's Hunting magazine wrote: "Efficient case design and a bullet weight range suitable for most North American big game make the 7mm-08 a fine choice for all-around hunting. Civil in recoil, it's a perfect match for lightweight, short-action rifles. It has also courted favor on metallic silhouette ranges, where its 140-grain bullets reach 500-yard targets faster and with as much energy as 150-grain .308s."[6] He also described it as "deadly" for elk.

I tend to agree, after seeing what the little seven can do on big game animals, manly moose the 140 gr partition in this cartridge is well...deadly combo.

True but as I said above, we are talking about a cartridge capable of reaching 500-600 yards. Standard 7mm-08 will not do that.

I have a very lightweight custom 7mm-08 and chambered it long with an extended Wyatt magazine and can launch 150 LRAB accurately at 2,900 fps which will reach 500 yards with authority. However, this is not a standard SAAMI 7mm-08! I named it LM7 (Light Magnum 7 mm)

[bobinthesky]

Hodgdon's reloading data says that the 7mm-08 will reach 2700 to 2800 fps with a 150 grain bullet, same as the 280 Remington. So why does the 280 qualify as a 500-600 yard round and the 7-08 not?

[Powder monkey]

When all things are considered
7stw
Bears as well

[Chukar Hunter]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Hodgdon's reloading data says that the 7mm-08 will reach 2700 to 2800 fps with a 150 grain bullet, same as the 280 Remington. So why does the 280 qualify as a 500-600 yard round and the 7-08 not?

The manuals are written very conservatively. Its all in the discretion of a seasoned hand loader to extract cartridge's maximum potential.

[Chukar Hunter]

Originally Posted by Powder monkey

When all things are considered
7stw
Bears as well

The STW is a great cartridge and I have shot it a few times. It burnes a ton of powder and when fired and after the dust settles, as my friend Rich at Sierra once put it: A dead body usually needs to be examined.

Once again, I was talking about mid weight cartridges capable of reaching 500-600 yards with mild recoil and easy feeding in a relatively light/medium package.

[270person]

Sounds like you have your mind all made up already so no point in debating any options other than the 280. Even though ANY of the "7mm labeled" outperform it.

Offhand my list would be the STW, Rem Mag, and Weatherby in that order. How the 7-08 even enters the conversation against them is a head scratcher unless it's all about recoil.

I'll shoot 270 with 140 accub's all day long against the 7-08 and the 08 won't beat it in any area outside of the already mentioned recoil.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 270person

Sounds like you have your mind all made up already so no point in debating any options other than the 280. Even though ANY of the "7mm labeled" outperform it.

Offhand my list would be the STW, Rem Mag, and Weatherby in that order. How the 7-08 even enters the conversation against them is a head scratcher unless it's all about recoil.

I'll shoot 270 with 140 accub's all day long against the 7-08 and the 08 won't beat it in any area outside of the already mentioned recoil.

Does that mean that along with the 280 they ALL outperform the 270?

[Slicktricker]

I’d take a 7 mm rem mag any day cannot wait till I find one in the Mesa or a kimber Montana.

[Pathfinder76]

The 7mm Remington Magnum is tough to beat. The arguments against the belt, short neck, and lacklustre velocities are plain silly. Really unfounded.

I’ve used the 270, 280, and 30-06 on enough game to know that there is precious little difference between them. Most of it is theoretical at best.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by Chukar Hunter

The manuals are written very conservatively. Its all in the discretion of a seasoned hand loader to extract cartridge's maximum potential.

I'm well acquainted with reloading manuals, I've been reading them for over 40 years and I've reloaded the 280 but not the 7-08. Even if you can squeeze another 200 fps out of the 280, I think you're splitting hairs drawing the max range at 500 yards for the 7-08, the theory is strictly academic and not practical.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by 270person

Sounds like you have your mind all made up already so no point in debating any options other than the 280. Even though ANY of the "7mm labeled" outperform it.

Offhand my list would be the STW, Rem Mag, and Weatherby in that order. How the 7-08 even enters the conversation against them is a head scratcher unless it's all about recoil.

I'll shoot 270 with 140 accub's all day long against the 7-08 and the 08 won't beat it in any area outside of the already mentioned recoil.

I think the discussion revolved around 7mm's.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

30-06 is better than a 280 Rem.

You got that right. The only thing the .280 might do as well as the '06 is shoot light 120 to 140 grain bullets. Everywhere else the .280 doesn't hold a candle.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

You got that right. The only thing the .280 does better then the '06 is shoot light 120 to 150 grain bullets. Everywhere else the .280 doesn't hold a candle.

And I prefer to shoot the 140gr to 150gr bullets. For moose, elk and smaller game, they work just fine, with less recoil.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

You got that right. The only thing the .280 does better then the '06 is shoot light 120 to 150 grain bullets. Everywhere else the .280 doesn't hold a candle.

Doesn’t hold a candle? I’m not sure where some of this stuff is pulled from. My goodness.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

Doesn’t hold a candle? I’m not sure where some of this stuff is pulled from.

How many people actually hold candles , shoot lights out, or drive tacks with their rifles?

[Deer Hunter]

Looking for cheap plentiful once fired brass? Doesn't hold a candle...
Looking for a wide variety of factory loads? Doesn't hold a candle...
Looking for cheap factory plinking ammo? Doesn't hold a candle...

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Looking for cheap plentiful once fired brass? Doesn't hold a candle...
Looking for a wide variety of factory loads? Doesn't hold a candle...
Looking for cheap factory plinking ammo? Doesn't hold a candle...

Can make brass from 30-06, I could give a crap about factory ammunition, and refer to point two.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

You got that right. The only thing the .280 might do as well as the '06 is shoot light 120 to 140 grain bullets. Everywhere else the .280 doesn't hold a candle.

I guess that's safe to say if you dont know any better.

Those that know leave the 30-06 at home when they go out hunting.

[catnthehat]

All the cartridges within the realm of that particular class doing everything very well.
Cat

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by Chukar Hunter

I am sure this topic has come up in a gazillion Forums including here but I would like to resurrect it again with a different twist. I would like you all to imagine a campfire debate TODAY with the following individuals around it;

Jack O'Connor
Elmer Keith
Craig Boddington
John Nosler
Vernon Speer
Colonel "Townie"
Wayne Van Zwoll

The subject of the debate is nothing new: What is the ultimate calibre for North American Big game excluding the big bears at long range up to 500 yards for which most reticles are calibrated at.

It would be very interesting to be present in that debate as guys like Jack & Wayne who are field tested guys would debate with John & Vernon who are bullet designers.

With the exception of Elmer Keith who was a Big Bore fan and would probably be as hard headed today as he was back then, everyone would be hard pressed not to accept the efficiency, flight characteristic and the killing power of the 7 mm bore. The question is: Which 7 mm calibre? Excluding the wildcats, the list is as follows:

1. 7mm-08 Remington
2. 7x57 Mauser
3. 284 Winchester
4. 280 Remington
5. 7x64 Brenneke
6. 280 Ackley Improved
7. 7 mm SAUM
8. 7 mm WSM
9. 7 mm Rem Mag
10. 7 mm WBY Mag
11. 7 mm STW
12. 7 mm Ultra Mag
13. 280 Nosler

I have loaded and shot for calibre numbers: 1, 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11 & 12.

My vote would be No. 4: The 280 Remington and I will give you my reasons:

The case dimension is standard and slightly tapered with a 17 degree shoulder which makes it ideal for feeding in any action type including M70, a Mauser or even a M700.

With a case capacity of 68 grains (H2O), It is a hand loaders dream, capable of launching a 150 grain Spitzer at over 3,000 fps with a 24" pipe. For any projectile of this weight and a min BC of 0.5, this translates to over 1,500 ft-lbs (enough to kill an elk or moose, at least on paper) at 600 yards. Most guys can't even hold still for half that distance, let alone shoot at game with authority.

The case head spaces at the shoulder and is non belted.

In a 7.5 lbs rifle, the above spitzer generates a felt recoil of 24 ft-lbs force which is very tolerable, even by younger shooters.

Case life is high because of the lower chamber pressures (50,000 psi) and the head spacing location.

You can shoot anywhere from 120 grain to 175 grain spitzers with very respectable velocities.

I have absolutely nothing against the rest of the 7 mm brethren but if you wondered, here is what I don't like about them;

The 7mm-08 is wonderful and I have one but case capacity is limited. Long throat chambering can increase powder capacity and put it right behind a 280.

The 7x57 Mauser is an in between calibre and factory ammunition is often loaded to a low velocity. Has good potential with a hand loader. Brass is hard to get.

284 Winchester is an awesome cartridge but because the case is rebated, feeding issues are almost a guarantee. Brass is extremely hard to find.

7x64 Brenneke is a beauty and twin brother to the 280 Rem but in NA, brass and factory ammo are almost non existent.

280 AI is a stellar in terms of performance but because of the straight case, feeding issues can exist and be problematic.

7 mm SAUM and WSM are both short stubby straight cases. Again, feeding issues and unavailability of brass are the cons.

7 mm Rem Mag has a very short neck and is belted without needing it. Case efficiency is low compared to the powder charge and often, a 26" barrel is required to extract its potential.

7mm Wby mag needs a large jump to control pressures which affects accuracy. Never seen one that shoots consistent.

The 7 mm STW, RUM and 280 Nosler are all huge capacity cases with just modest gains in velocity compared to the powder charge, recoil and extra barrel length.

Now, the above does not mean that the 6.5's, .277's, the 30's and the 338's are not capable calibres and they all have killed and continue dropping game. People put down elk a 243W and I have and like those other bores too. The gist of this debate is something else however. It is about opinions on choosing a calibre with the best case efficiency, easy chambering, great overall killing power, ammo and brass availability, mild recoil and long range (500-600 yd) capability.

I will be interested to hear your counter arguments! On a related note, I have build 4 successful custom 280 Rem to date and three more are in the pipe. And if I am not mistaken, John Nosler and Jack O'connor (in his later years) had developed a deep love affair with the 280 rem.

Lastly, as Jack O'Connor said it eloquently: A bull elk is as wounded with a 338 as it is with a 270 if the shot placement is not right. There you have it!

Yours in good hunt'n

CH

I would pick #1