Campfire Debate_Ultimate NA Big Game Calibre Sans the big bears

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 270person

The only point that causes me to raise an eyebrow in your entire posting is the whole 500 yard concept so many put forward. What would you say is the percentage of those shots made by the average medium to large game hunter Chukar? The vast majority of the animals I've killed are at 200 yds and under and I'd bet most here, being honest, would say the same. Outside of the sheep and goat hunters of course.

So we're talking what? Well under 5% of the kill shots made annually in Alberta?

If we're talking those kinds of shots on moose and elk then imo the big 30's are the only way to go. Better kill rates on shots that are off the mark. Pretty hard to argue when you watch moose get blown off their feet with 338's. Only problem with them is not everyone can shoot them well.

Blown off their feet? This is getting good.

[Kurt505]

270Person,

I made a moose do the space walk at 509yds with a 280rem shooting a factory Winchester 140gr failsafe. No 338, 300rum or 340wby could have made it any deader.

For some reason my 280's just seem to kill stuff dead, even deader than my 300 magnums.

[leeelmer]

Quite funny. Blown off their feet.

I hunt mostly with a 338RUM and 358 Norma not because its the best but because i like them.
I like the larger cal's and don't use small stuff for much. Not that a 270 or 30-06 is no good but i like the big stuff better.
But blown off there feet i have yet to see.
If you can shoot the big 30s or better yet big 338s then you will never wonder if you brought enough gun. But most cannot handle the recoil. It takes trigger time but its doable.
You can beat the horse to death on what is the best. But I believe that what ever round you are profisent with is the best all around cal for you.
My brother hunts everything with a 243. Me a 338RUM just what ever you practice with and are conferable with is the best.

[JD848]

OLD 338 was that the number of the train engine,i seen a bull face a train head on and he flew about 8 feet,just bounced of that thing.The train was going flat out and the moose lost big time.

[270person]

Originally Posted by chuck

Are you seriously advocating shooting at deer with something behind them based on bullet selection?

Nope. Having some fun. I was a Far Side fan.

[270person]

Originally Posted by chuck

Blown off their feet? This is getting good.

Figure of speech Chuck. You got a fire hydrant lodged someplace special that causes you some angst?

Now we get to hear about the superior knockdown power of the 7mm over the 338 I suppose. Yawn.

Please keep in mind that I shoot 7mm as well as you type your usual condescending but highly inspirational reply.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

Blown off their feet? This is getting good.

Exactly. if the bullet blows moose off their feet the recoil of a hand held rifle would blow the shooter off of his feet.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 270person

How do you think the deer standing directly behind the ones you shoot at feel?

"Dang I wish this guy was shooting cheap soft points"

Only a fool would shoot at a deer with another deer standing right behind it.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 270person

Figure of speech Chuck. You got a fire hydrant lodged someplace special that causes you some angst?

Now we get to hear about the superior knockdown power of the 7mm over the 338 I suppose. Yawn.

Please keep in mind that I shoot 7mm as well as you type your usual condescending but highly inspirational reply.

I’ve killed game with 338 magnums as well. Yawn indeed.

[bb356]

Short and sweet ... I never read the thread ... but with a .308 I am pretty sure I can enjoy the rest of my life hunting and not wanting and needing anymore !!!

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by 270person

You have gone so convoluted thinking I'm insulting you, which I'm not, that you've lost touch with the entire discussion.

So 7-08 is just as potent as all the other 7's and miles ahead of the 277's because it's a 284. Gotcha. You're 100% incorrect but I gotcha.

I know you weren't insulting me, just anyone who shoots game at 1000 yards which by the way, I don't agree with either.

I never said any such thing, you just love to make things up spur of the moment with no thought what so ever don't you.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by 270person

The only point that causes me to raise an eyebrow in your entire posting is the whole 500 yard concept so many put forward. What would you say is the percentage of those shots made by the average medium to large game hunter Chukar? The vast majority of the animals I've killed are at 200 yds and under and I'd bet most here, being honest, would say the same. Outside of the sheep and goat hunters of course.

So we're talking what? Well under 5% of the kill shots made annually in Alberta?

If we're talking those kinds of shots on moose and elk then imo the big 30's are the only way to go. Better kill rates on shots that are off the mark. Pretty hard to argue when you watch moose get blown off their feet with 338's. Only problem with them is not everyone can shoot them well.

Blown off their feet???? Seriously????

I've shot moose with a killing shot at 20 - 40 yards with a 30-06 on more than one occasion and they hardly even flinched!

[jayquiver]

back to the OP, in particular #6, 280 AI with the comments "feeding issues can exist and be problematic." Has anyone experienced this? If so with what models? Is it really a problem or just with certain actions?

Any 280ai owners care to comment?

As I am a fan of the 7mm bullet (not sure why to be honest). I had my heart set on another 7mm-08 but the 280 and 280ai look very inviting also. I have a credit at Prophet River thats burning a hole in my pocket...haha.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by jayquiver

back to the OP, in particular #6, 280 AI with the comments "feeding issues can exist and be problematic." Has anyone experienced this? If so with what models? Is it really a problem or just with certain actions?

Any 280ai owners care to comment?

As I am a fan of the 7mm bullet (not sure why to be honest). I had my heart set on another 7mm-08 but the 280 and 280ai look very inviting also. I have a credit at Prophet River thats burning a hole in my pocket...haha.

I owned two rifles in 280AI, and I had no feeding issues with either of them.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by jayquiver

back to the OP, in particular #6, 280 AI with the comments "feeding issues can exist and be problematic." Has anyone experienced this? If so with what models? Is it really a problem or just with certain actions?

Any 280ai owners care to comment?

As I am a fan of the 7mm bullet (not sure why to be honest). I had my heart set on another 7mm-08 but the 280 and 280ai look very inviting also. I have a credit at Prophet River thats burning a hole in my pocket...haha.

I've had 3 280ai rifles.

They've been feeding my family for years with no issues!

As far as how they perform, all 3 have been flawless.

[270person]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Blown off their feet???? Seriously????

I've shot moose with a killing shot at 20 - 40 yards with a 30-06 on more than one occasion and they hardly even flinched!

As I said bob. Figure of speech.

And I've done the same with the 270. Also had them fold like cheap tents on the spot at 150. Shot placement. Who knew?

[BackPackHunter]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Not to be difficult here, but I had a shoulder hit with a 165gr ttsx coming out of a 300wsm and that deer was still alive 24hrs later, you can find the full version of that story in the archives of the hunting section. So I think the difference in your outcomes were better shot placement rather that the caliber of the hole, I actually know it was the difference.

Not a lot of love for the short mags
More then once I’ve seen a mono fail when hitting a shoulder blade

I personally love the 300wsm & 180g bullets but when I run out of 308 bullets it’s getting a 7 SAUM pipe & 180g bullets

[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by BackPackHunter

Not a lot of love for the short mags
More then once I’ve seen a mono fail when hitting a shoulder blade

I personally love the 300wsm & 180g bullets but when I run out of 308 bullets it’s getting a 7 SAUM pipe & 180g bullets

Cool plan. Not sure why either. Brass and ammo availability?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by BackPackHunter

Not a lot of love for the short mags
More then once I’ve seen a mono fail when hitting a shoulder blade

I personally love the 300wsm & 180g bullets but when I run out of 308 bullets it’s getting a 7 SAUM pipe & 180g bullets

280ai put the smackdown on a bull moose today at about 250yds, 140gr accubond, one and done! Meat for the winter.

[BackPackHunter]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

Cool plan. Not sure why either. Brass and ammo availability?

I reload so that is why I run the short mag, I have a custom action and reload to 3.111 OAL so I can get a little more out of it then what’s offered from factory

I buy enough brass at the start , that I’ll cook the barrel before I run out
I’ve played with the wsm enough now that I want a change.
When I run the numbers , I’m not loosing anything from dropping down a size
But gaining a better BC bullet.

Never once had a feeding issue.

[BackPackHunter]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

280ai put the smackdown on a bull moose today at about 250yds, 140gr accubond, one and done! Meat for the winter.

The no love for the short mag was a broad statement about the thread as a whole
My pic was for you. With the bullet fail.
Mono bullet shot into the shoulder blade, they don’t always open.
Could have been the case with your deer , & that’s my guess , bullet fail vs not enough gun with the wsm.


Congrats on the bull, I know he couldn’t tell the difference from a 270 or a 338
They all kill, and all will get the job done .

[seven0eight]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Once the bullet expands to larger than it's unfired diameter, the SD starts to decrease. And as a bullet sheds weight, it's SD also decreases. A 140gr monometal that retains 90% of it's weight , will actually have a higher SD than a 175gr cup and core bullet that sheds 40% of it's weight. So which is more important, the unfired SD, or the expanded/remaining SD?

Nailed it. Was thoroughly enjoying this little trash sesh and waiting for someone to articulate this factor. It’s a whole new era now.

Also like to point out that in addition to his well known love of the .270, O’connor was awful fond of the 7x57 (“Big punch in a little case”), and one wonders what he would have thought about it (or it’s modern incarnation the 7-08)with today’s premium pills. Old logic used to say load the 7x57 with heavy bullets for moose to take advantage of SD and penetration. Nowadays a 140g ttsx or e-tip does as good or better job!

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by seven0eight

Nailed it. Was thoroughly enjoying this little trash sesh and waiting for someone to articulate this factor. It’s a whole new era now.

Also like to point out that in addition to his well known love of the .270, O’connor was awful fond of the 7x57 (“Big punch in a little case”), and one wonders what he would have thought about it (or it’s modern incarnation the 7-08)with today’s premium pills. Old logic used to say load the 7x57 with heavy bullets for moose to take advantage of SD and penetration. Nowadays a 140g ttsx or e-tip does as good or better job!

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Have you ever looked at solids which are designed to penetrate with no expansion? They tend to be flat points with a very low B.C. B.C. is a factor in how much velocity the bullet impacts with, but once the bullet reaches the animal, a higher B.C. of the unfired bullet does not mean more penetration.
In fact more impact velocity can mean more expansion, and less penetration ,while lower impact velocity usually means less expansion, which can result in more penetration.
As well, a 140gr monometal , will often penetrate more than a 175gr cup and core bullet even though the SD of the unfired bullet is much lower. I have seen this several times, as a hunting partner used to like 175gr bullets in his 7mmremmag, until he saw that my 140gr TSX/TTSX bullets penetrated as much or more. Bullet construction is much more of a factor than SD when it comes to penetration.

Higher impact velocities can and do increase bullet expansion, as does increased resistance. To claim that a 140 gr monometal will out perform a good 175 gr C&C at the same impact velocity and POI is nothing but pure conjecture. The C&C will shed some weight.. maybe even 40 %, but the internal damage inflicted while it is shedding that weight makes a huge difference in the trauma department. That scenario, compared to a mono with 100% weight retention and expansion to double diameter still leaves a much narrower wound channel and much less energy transfer. Unless adequate resistance is met by the mono, it will likely result in a pass through with a fair amount of under utilized velocity/energy remaining.
Bullet construction is definitely a factor, but I still maintain that given any two bullets of the same construction, in the same situation, the one with the Higher SD is the penetration winner under any circumstances.
Even the ancient Nosler Partition is alive & well in the new era 21st Century and is quite at home competing in the killing dept. with a Barnes mono, with the same SD and at lower muzzle and impact velocities, under any set of circumstances. However, some of the newer monos like the Nosler E-Tip with the softer copper construction and an expansion cavity may give it a good run. Only time will tell but the specialized TTSX is not the omnipotent bullet many believe it is.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

To claim that a 140 gr monometal will out perform a good 175 gr C&C at the same impact velocity and POI is nothing but pure conjecture.

This is the real world. You cannot have both impacting at the same velocity.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

This is the real world. You cannot have both impacting at the same velocity.

In the real world most would simply alter the impact distance between the two.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

In the real world most would simply alter the impact distance between the two.

You can’t have it both ways. Muzzle velocity is what it is and so is distance.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

You can’t have it both ways. Muzzle velocity is what it is and so is distance.

Are you feeling OK Chuck ?

Pick two ctdgs, then use the two bullets referred to. Then use the nominal muzzle velocities for that bullet in those cartridges, then determine the distance to a given (same) impact velocity. The rest should come a bit easier.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Higher impact velocities can and do increase bullet expansion, as does increased resistance. To claim that a 140 gr monometal will out perform a good 175 gr C&C at the same impact velocity and POI is nothing but pure conjecture. The C&C will shed some weight.. maybe even 40 %, but the internal damage inflicted while it is shedding that weight makes a huge difference in the trauma department. That scenario, compared to a mono with 100% weight retention and expansion to double diameter still leaves a much narrower wound channel and much less energy transfer. Unless adequate resistance is met by the mono, it will likely result in a pass through with a fair amount of under utilized velocity/energy remaining.
Bullet construction is definitely a factor, but I still maintain that given any two bullets of the same construction, in the same situation, the one with the Higher SD is the penetration winner under any circumstances.
Even the ancient Nosler Partition is alive & well in the new era 21st Century and is quite at home competing in the killing dept. with a Barnes mono, with the same SD and at lower muzzle and impact velocities, under any set of circumstances. However, some of the newer monos like the Nosler E-Tip with the softer copper construction and an expansion cavity may give it a good run. Only time will tell but the specialized TTSX is not the omnipotent bullet many believe it is.

I can drive the 140gr bullet about 350fps faster than the 175gr bullet, so the impact velocity is usually significantly higher, so the expanded diameter and wound channel are quite comparable. I have killed game from pronghorn to deer, to bighorn, to elk, to moose with 140gr TTSX bullets, with great results. My pronghorn this year was shot at 300 yards, and it dropped at the shot and was dead before we reached it. It was likely dead before it hit the ground. As far as having energy remaining dead is dead. I have yet to have to track an animal killed with a TTSX.

[mgvande]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

280ai put the smackdown on a bull moose today at about 250yds, 140gr accubond, one and done! Meat for the winter.

Did it get knocked off his feet?🤗

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I can drive the 140gr bullet about 350fps faster than the 175gr bullet, so the impact velocity is usually significantly higher, so the expanded diameter and wound channel are quite comparable. I have killed game from pronghorn to deer, to bighorn, to elk, to moose with 140gr TTSX bullets, with great results. My pronghorn this year was shot at 300 yards, and it dropped at the shot and was dead before we reached it. It was likely dead before it hit the ground. As far as having energy remaining dead is dead. I have yet to have to track an animal killed with a TTSX.

As I stated , two bullets in the same situation.

I'm not knocking the TTSX or your success with the 140 in your 7STW on anything. Run a 175 or 180 of the same construction through it at the best velocity you can and note the difference at 300 yards ..but maybe on something a bit larger than a Pronghorn. I have a 6.5x55 that would do that.